Eight transgender questions maybe more

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I suspect there may be pathways that are all too ready to latch onto one course of treatment, but surely there are others, other professionals, who would take a far more cautious approach.

I find it Unfathomable that parents would go along with an overly rapid, extreme, diagnosis and treatment plan.

Are your observations based on experience in the US or elsewhere?

There’s are a lot of professionals who are concerned, but in a lot of ways their hands are tied.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve talked to school nurses or psychologists who when the topic of “ “transgender” teens and how there’s been such a dramatic increase of them, that they’re really worried, but they’re saying this to me in whispers and looking over their shoulder because they could get in a lot of trouble.
And parents who try to get help for their kids are frequently met with statements like “do you want a live son or a dead daughter”—presented like these are the only possible outcomes. So then the parents get scared and are bullied into treatment options they don’t support.
This is in the US

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Sometimes the issue can be taken out of the hands of parents. Advocates on behalf of the child can independently seek, and obtain, court approval for the treatment.

Sadly, this has happened. That the parents get overruled. Usually it’s in the context of a custody situation where one parent says “transition” and the other parent wants to stop it.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

The Church says this? I’ve never heard that before. I find “sources, please” people to be one step up from calling someone a liar — it’s really off-putting — but that said, do you have a source for this? Not calling you a liar, just wondering where this comes from.

The comment I gave you is from a paper I forgot to bookmark but the one below which is a milder comment is from the Church paper I posted in post #4:

“in cases where a person’s sex is not clearly defined, it is medical professionals who can make a therapeutic intervention. In such situations, parents cannot make an arbitrary choice on the issue, let alone society. Instead, medical science should act with purely therapeutic ends, and intervene in the least invasive fashion, on the basis of objective parameters and with a view to establishing the person’s constitutive identity.”

I am not seeing this as a one-size-fits-all mandate to “figure out what sex the person ‘really is’ and do surgery to make the body conform to the ‘really is’ to the extent possible”. The document says the medical professionals can make a therapeutic intervention — not “must”, but “can”. “Purely therapeutic ends” and “least invasive fashion” indicate, to my mind anyway, that a full-court press to make the person “one or the other” isn’t mandated. “Objective parameters” could include a case that is so truly ambiguous, that choosing one gender or the other isn’t possible. I have no idea what “constitutive identity” means.

It is always possible that an intersex person could not be able to afford, not be able to endure physically and/or psychologically, or just simply not want to undergo any kind of surgery. If they want to say to the professionals “help me to figure out what I ‘really am’ and make me that way”, more power to them. If, on the other hand, they are content to say “I am as God made me, for reasons known only to Him, He allowed me to develop in a unique way, original sin introduced afflictions such as this into the human race, and I just want to remain as I am”, that should be okay too.

 

[Thorolfr]

In the clinical setting.
Kiddo comes in with gender dysphoria (a symptom) and they’ve decided that they are transgender (diagnosis)
The clinical psychologist or LCSW cannot challenge this self-determined diagnosis directly. And I mean, as in they can lose their license if they do.

If someone says that they’re transgender, is that a “diagnosis”? If someone says they’re gay, is that also a “diagnosis”? Or are they just saying something important about themselves? I’m not saying that I’m in favor of hormones or surgery for children, but I’m not sure either that mental health professionals should be challenging what someone says about their gender identity or their sexuality.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

To claim that one was born in the wrong body is an extraordinary claim—which requires extraordinary proof.

Again, back to the problem that laws are being passed around supporting such a nebulous and slippery concept.
And kids are being enticed to destroy their bodies and fertility with powerful drugs.
Amd let’s not forget — this is a very new condition.
The Gender-Dysphoria-from-birth variant only appears in the literature in the late 1800s, and the Late onset variant in the mid to late 1900s.

I gotta say, and this isn’t directed at you particularly, Thorofl, that so many people here are perfectly comfortable with this experimentation on the bodies of vulnerable teenagers.
Amd since so many of these are teenage girls, where’s the outrage from the feminists?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

To claim that one was born in the wrong body is an extraordinary claim—which requires extraordinary proof.

Again, back to the problem that laws are being passed around supporting such a nebulous and slippery concept.
And kids are being enticed to destroy their bodies and fertility with powerful drugs.
Amd let’s not forget — this is a very new condition.
The Gender-Dysphoria-from-birth variant only appears in the literature in the late 1800s, and the Late onset variant in the mid to late 1900s.

I gotta say, and this isn’t directed at you particularly, Thorofl, that so many people here are perfectly comfortable with this experimentation on the bodies of vulnerable teenagers.
Amd since so many of these are teenage girls, where’s the outrage from the feminists?

To make a long story short, people have gone crazy these days.

I don’t deny that it is possible for someone to feel like they are trapped in the body of the gender opposite to what they feel like they are. I certainly don’t deny that there is such a thing as intersex — of course there is, that’s just a (usually) observable physical fact. And I don’t deny that there are many people who, through no fault of their own, have persistent, deep-seated, seemingly permanent same-sex attractions, either exclusively or as part of a larger scenario (i.e., bisexuality). But it seems like, all of a sudden, there is this mass-eruption of gender confusion, denial, and chaos.

While not wishing to discount the biological and psychological origin of these things, I don’t think satanic promptings should be denied either — not in every case, but it’s possible that the evil one can “fan the flames” of what might be a transient, short-lived doubt, and coupled with a social order that has seized upon gender confusion as “the new big thing”, and media bandwagoning, all hell has broken loose where gender issues are concerned.

 

[Thorolfr]

To claim that one was born in the wrong body is an extraordinary claim—which requires extraordinary proof…

The Gender-Dysphoria-from-birth variant only appears in the literature in the late 1800s, and the Late onset variant in the mid to late 1900s.

Even homosexuality as a psychological phenomenon was not discussed in the literature until the latter half of the nineteenth century. Before that it was just seen as a sinful “temptation” that some people secumbed to, not as an important part of a person’s psychological makeup. The whole field of psychology didn’t really exist until the late nineteenth century. So, it’s no surprise that gender dysphoria wasn’t discussed until then either.

And as for the notion that someone was “born in the wrong body,” is that really what most transgender people believe or say about themselves? What does that even mean exactly? Or do they just believe that the way they feel inside doesn’t match with their outward physical sexual characteristics (and there may be real physical reasons for this in the way their brains are wired) and that this causes extreme discomfort which they would like to find some way to aleviate?

 

[Rau]

Or do they just believe that the way they feel inside doesn’t match with their outward physical sexual characteristics (and there may be real physical reasons for this in the way their brains are wired) and that this causes extreme discomfort which they would like to find some way to aleviate?

Often correct I believe. The question is about options to deal with the situation and certainly there should be no rush to extreme treatments (regardless of patient request).

In the case of homosexuality, the issue is sort of in reverse - the question is whether there is any reason to do anything about it (absent patient request).

I am of the view both of the above are proper subjects of scientific investigation to understand cause.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Even homosexuality as a psychological phenomenon was not discussed in the literature until the latter half of the nineteenth century

Homosexuality has been in the literature since ancient times.

And as for the notion that someone was “born in the wrong body,” is that really what most transgender people believe or say about themselves?

Yes, it is. That’s why they want name changes and drugs and surgeries.

 

[Thorolfr]

Thorolfr:

Even homosexuality as a psychological phenomenon was not discussed in the literature until the latter half of the nineteenth century

Homosexuality has been in the literature since ancient times.

And as for the notion that someone was “born in the wrong body,” is that really what most transgender people believe or say about themselves?

Yes, it is. That’s why they want name changes and drugs and surgeries.

I thought that transgender people wanted hormones and surgery, etc. to relieve the symptoms of gender dysphoria, not because they just casually think that perhaps they were born in the wrong body.

And homosexuality has not been in the literature since ancient times in the way that it is understood today. And I don’t even know what your point is in bringing up the fact that gender dysphoria wasn’t described until the late 19th century. If your point is that this means that it’s something new that didn’t exist before then, that’s highly unlikely. Schizophrenia was first described by Dr. Emil Krapelin in 1896. ADHD was first described by British pediatrician Sir George Still in 1902. Asperger’s Syndrome, an autism spectrum disorder, was first described by Hans Asberger in 1940. Does this all mean that none of these conditions existed before the late 19th or first half of the 20th century and then suddenly the number of people who have them exploded? Of course not.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I’m confused as to why you seem to think the transgender/transsexual claim is not that they were born in the wrong body.
That’s what they’ve always claimed. (“I’m a woman trapped in the body of a man” or what have you).

But yes, persons who claim to have been born in the wrong body only appears in the literature in the late 1800s.
Gender bending behaviors have existed for a long time, and for various reasons (sexual kicks, admission into professions forbidden to their sex, etc)
But the the claim of being born in the wrong body is a new phenomenon.
If it existed before then, it was so vanishingly rare it didn’t make it into the literature.

 

[LilyM]

0Scarlett_nidiyilii:

Thorolfr:

Even homosexuality as a psychological phenomenon was not discussed in the literature until the latter half of the nineteenth century

Homosexuality has been in the literature since ancient times.

And as for the notion that someone was “born in the wrong body,” is that really what most transgender people believe or say about themselves?

Yes, it is. That’s why they want name changes and drugs and surgeries.

I thought that transgender people wanted hormones and surgery, etc. to relieve the symptoms of gender dysphoria, not because they just casually think that perhaps they were born in the wrong body.

And homosexuality has not been in the literature since ancient times in the way that it is understood today. And I don’t even know what your point is in bringing up the fact that gender dysphoria wasn’t described until the late 19th century. If your point is that this means that it’s something new that didn’t exist before then, that’s highly unlikely. Schizophrenia was first described by Dr. Emil Krapelin in 1896. ADHD was first described by British pediatrician Sir George Still in 1902. Asperger’s Syndrome, an autism spectrum disorder, was first described by Hans Asberger in 1940. Does this all mean that none of these conditions existed before the late 19th or first half of the 20th century and then suddenly the number of people who have them exploded? Of course not.

I wonder why you would assume that those who wish to transition do so merely because they “casually” think they are born in the wrong body?

Firstly there doesn’t appear to me to be anything “casual” about such a thought, given the vast majority of people never report having it.

Secondly, those who wish to transition usually (afaik) report such feelings being persistent either from a young age, or at least over a period of some years, before transition.

 

[LilyM]

I’m confused as to why you seem to think the transgender/transsexual claim is not that they were born in the wrong body.
That’s what they’ve always claimed. (“I’m a woman trapped in the body of a man” or what have you).

But yes, persons who claim to have been born in the wrong body only appears in the literature in the late 1800s.
Gender bending behaviors have existed for a long time, and for various reasons (sexual kicks, admission into professions forbidden to their sex, etc)
But the the claim of being born in the wrong body is a new phenomenon.
If it existed before then, it was so vanishingly rare it didn’t make it into the literature.

“didn’t make it into the literature”? Maybe not scientific literature, but popular culture has examples - Shakespeare has Lady Macbeth give a speech starting “unsex me here”, basically saying she wishes she were a man.

 

[jeannetherese]

Shakespeare has Lady Macbeth give a speech starting “unsex me here”, basically saying she wishes she were a man.

Unsex is to take away sex, not to change sex.
That was a memorable speech by lady Macbeth though.

 

[FrostArcana]

Maybe I know the wrong trans people but I don’t think most of them literally mean that. The ones I know who are atheists don’t even believe in a metaphysical framework that would allow being "born in the wrong body"and Christian onesrely more on gender than the body when pressed, its more like an allegory for the suffering they feel than an actual claim to the state of things

 

[EnglishTeacher]

“didn’t make it into the literature”? Maybe not scientific literature, but popular culture has examples - Shakespeare has Lady Macbeth give a speech starting “unsex me here”, basically saying she wishes she were a man.

That’s not what this speech means at all. It has nothing to do with transgenderism. She is asking the spirits to take away her goodness, including the instincts for kindness and gentleness considered typical in a woman, because she is steeling herself to commit a murder in cold blood.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM:

“didn’t make it into the literature”? Maybe not scientific literature, but popular culture has examples - Shakespeare has Lady Macbeth give a speech starting “unsex me here”, basically saying she wishes she were a man.

That’s not what this speech means at all. It has nothing to do with transgenderism. She is asking the spirits to take away her goodness, including the instincts for kindness and gentleness considered typical in a woman, because she is steeling herself to commit a murder in cold blood.

Note it is not “un-human me”. She wants to be a human who is not a woman.

In other words to be manly enough to do the deed that her husband is too un-manly to do hinself.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Lady Macbeth give a speech starting “unsex me here”, basically saying she wishes she were a man.

Lady MacBeth was upset about a current problem.
She wanted escape.
She didn’t claim to be born into the wrong body.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Maybe I know the wrong trans people but I don’t think most of them literally mean that.

Yes, I’m afraid you do know the wrong trans people.
When the “transsexual” or “invert” (an even older word) phenomenon started a little over a hundred years ago, the claim was that they were born in the wrong body.
They claimed to feel a tremendous amount of distress because of this wrongness.
It was also persistent from the time they could talk.

These people are extremely rare.
A cis person could go through their whole life and never meet anybody like this.

In the late 1900s a new phenomenon emerged whereby a kiddo who was comfortable in their skin as a child became distressed with their biological sex in or around puberty.
This phenomenon has upticked severely, psychiatrists dont know why, are not allowed to study it, and laws are being passed to facilitate transition.
On kids.
Who haven’t reached adulthood yet.

 

[Anesti33]

I thought that transgender people wanted hormones and surgery, etc. to relieve the symptoms of gender dysphoria,

There is a problem, tho. “Gender reassignment” and other unnatural mutilations are not based in science (more like fantasy/sci fi) and a “successful” transition frequently does nothing to relieve symptoms, but often exacerbates them and indeed often ends in suicide. Very sad. Not evidence-based medicine–quite the opposite.