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faithfully
Guest
Leaving the church officially has been addressed here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=252195&highlight=officially+leave+the+church
Not sure how this impacts marriage from a Catholic perspective.
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=252195&highlight=officially+leave+the+church
Not sure how this impacts marriage from a Catholic perspective.
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Luna_Lovecraft
Guest
So someone who’s an an atheist should beg forgiveness to a God he doesn’t believe in…
… and attend a religious ceremony whose significance he not only doesn’t believe in but outright rejects…
… and pray, again to a God he doesn’t believe in.
Am I allowed to ask why he would want to do any of these thing?
It’s like telling a paraplegia she has to jog around that track because “it’s the law.” The nerves don’t work. Even if she wanted to and faced a life sentence for failing to comply, she ain’t jogging around that track.
The faith isn’t there, SanctaMommy. He can’t be compelled or forced to follow Cannon Law because it doesn’t mean anything to him. That’s the whole point.
So rather than continue bashing the OP and her fiance in the name of charity, or worse - suggest they make hypocrites out of themselves by doing things they don’t believe in - a better approach might be to meet them where they are and help them navigate their lives as they are now, keeping in mind that their journeys might lead him back Home at some point. And if he comes back Home, he just might bring the OP with him. Maybe.Maybe not. But we live in hope.
On the other hand, the kind of “charity” I see being dished out on this thread, were it aimed a good many wandering people, would pretty much guarantee they’d never step inside a Catholic church again.
Luna
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SwizzleStick
Guest
I think things have changed since 2008. Gotta do some checking.
Here’s a thread dated November, 2010. This is what I was talking about.
The Catholic Church will never let you go
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=506702
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faithfully
Guest
Oh, It looks like you might be right. The only source I can find is on Wiki. It sources Latin Documents. Which I can’t read… so…
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exoflare
Guest
Thanks for announcing that to everyone, I’m sure it will make the prayers more effective.
Just stick to doing that, because right now your posts in this thread are seriously doing more harm than good.
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SummerSmiles
Guest
This is not someone who is merely struggling to understand some aspect of the faith, this is someone who does not believe in ANY of it. What is the point of requiring an atheist to marry in accordance with Cannon Law? Yes, I realize that the fiancee is baptized and should be married in the church, but he does not believe in it. No amount of insults is going to change that.
God granted us all free will, we should not begrudge those who choose a path different than the one we’d prefer they take. From what I’ve witnessed, holier-than-thou attitudes are more likely to drive *away *someone who is teetering on the line between belief and non-belief in the Catholic Church. Nevermind what it will do to someone who already has no belief in it. This sort of attitude is more likely to cement in the OP’s mind (and that of her fiancee) that there is no room in the CC for them. Which is why, on these forums, we are asked to respond with Christian charity. We should gently guide those who are somehow misguided, not bash them over the head with Cannon Law, which they already are not convinced holds any significance for them. There’s that old saying, “you’ll catch more bees with honey than with vinegar.”
I pray that the fiancee’s family will be more charitable towards the OP and her fiancee when they break the news to them. It would be a shame for the family to lose all influence they might have over the “pretend” happy couple by telling them that their entire marriage will be a sham.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
Dear SanctaMommy,
When I was a very lapsed Catholic, you could not have dragged me into a church. I did not consider myself a Catholic and did not realize that I still was one, in spite of myself. I would have laughed at you! I’m a WHAT?? Nope!
I was never an atheist but I did practice witchcraft, study world religions and practice Zen Buddhism as well as Hatha Yoga. I called myself an agnostic at one point. Which means that I was not sure anyone could really know if there was a God. Not that I didn’t know who God was, but that I was unsure it was possible.
Anyway, what I am trying to tell you is that this young man, for all his parents have tried to instill within him, does not currently believe himself to be a Catholic. We know that he still is, that he remains a Catholic, but HE himself does not believe that to be the case. You can’t drag him and his GF into a church and force them to repeat what are for them meaningless words.
If you had told me that I would turn to God and return to the Church after my son was born, I’d have laughed in your face. No, thanks, really, my life is great the way it is. That’s the sense of humor God has.
These parents will have to let go, and let God. It may be one of the most difficult things they have had to do, or it may be they will have a lot of personal strength. But whatever - these 2 people have made up their minds at this point. Please don’t harangue them. It does no good.
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SwizzleStick
Guest
Not to derail this thread, but here’s another thread that discusses it. Apparently, formal defection really isn’t recognized by the Church anymore, not that that would matter to an atheist, but it sure would matter to his very Catholic family…Oh, It looks like you might be right. The only source I can find is on Wiki. It sources Latin Documents. Which I can’t read… so…
De-Baptism and leaving the Church
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8330179
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Bklynguy
Guest
I agree with this. He might be atheist now, but that can definitely change. I was a lapsed Catholic when my wife and I were married (we were married in her Lutheran church). However, after a few years, I started practicing again and had to get the marriage convalidated in the Church. You can make it a very simple ceremony and can still elope. When my wife and I had our marriage convalidated, we had a very short ceremony with just the two of us and two witnesses (which you would need even if you would elope).Not to deny your atheism, but I think you may want to take into account the fact that your fiance is a Catholic by baptism which means any marriage without a priest or deacon witnessing it would not be considered sacramental and could cause difficulties down the line if he wants to return to receiving communion, etc.
So, I suggest you talk to his priest to see if you can arrange a simple ceremony in which you can say your vows before the priest/deacon with just a couple of witnesses that wouldn’t entail all the trappings of a formal affair. Then, you and your family could have a nice gathering afterwards to celebrate–also keeping it simple, such as a family picnic, for instance.
What I’m saying is he may not want to burn all his bridges no matter what he says he can’t accept about the faith he was brought up in. Such things have a much deeper hold on our lives than we often imagine. It’s just something you may want to consider.
Blessings on you and your families.
Best of luck to both of you.
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maryjk
Guest
The first thing that has to happen is for him to be a grown up and tell his parents. By not telling them he is not giving them the chance to let go.
If he is ready to live with someone and plan a wedding, then he is ready to own up to his lack of belief.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
This, I agree with. They fear the reaction and the consequences, it’s time to butch up and sit down with his parents for a conversation.
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Allegra
Guest
If you do the JP thing, I think you should invite both sets of parents. It will probably mean alot to them to see their children getting married, even if it isn’t the way they’d like. If your fiance’s parents feel they can’t attend, at least they would know they were wanted.
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lifeisbeautiful
Guest
Hi BlueEyedLady!
I really don’t have advice for you, I tried to put myself in their position, but for me, any choice of getting married outside the Church would be upsetting, because it means my son doesn’t understand the Catholic faith, and all I would want is for my son to learn more about Catholicism, to truly understand it so he would come back… I will admit it would just break my heart if my son told me what your fh is going to tell his family… That being said, I think you are aware of this, and are trying to soften the blow. I do appreciate your sincere concern for them, I think knowing that you are not anti-Catholic, that you are open minded, would soften it.
I think you have a very good heart, and it seems like you respect Catholicism a lot, that is very good… As your future MIL I would (will
) secretly pray for your conversion, heck, you seem to know quite a bit about some teachings already, more than many other Catholics do!
God bless you in your journey through life!
I really don’t have advice for you, I tried to put myself in their position, but for me, any choice of getting married outside the Church would be upsetting, because it means my son doesn’t understand the Catholic faith, and all I would want is for my son to learn more about Catholicism, to truly understand it so he would come back… I will admit it would just break my heart if my son told me what your fh is going to tell his family… That being said, I think you are aware of this, and are trying to soften the blow. I do appreciate your sincere concern for them, I think knowing that you are not anti-Catholic, that you are open minded, would soften it.
I think you have a very good heart, and it seems like you respect Catholicism a lot, that is very good… As your future MIL I would (will
) secretly pray for your conversion, heck, you seem to know quite a bit about some teachings already, more than many other Catholics do!God bless you in your journey through life!
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
I don’t think that either one of us see this as a fear of telling them. But he lives 500 miles from them and only sees them a few times a year, and it has never come up. Just telling them out of nowhere would be antagonistic, and they have never asked. Besides, and I know there will be some disagreement with me on this, I don’t really think its any of their business what their independent adult son’s religious beliefs are until something like a wedding comes up.
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maryjk
Guest
Really? That comment sounds antagonistic. And if you don’t believe that it is any of their business, then telling them shouldn’t be a problem.
In fact, planning the kind of wedding you want shouldn’t be a problem.He doesn’t sound so independent to me. It sounds like he knows this will upset them and he is afraid to do it. And unless his unbelief is new, he has had a few times to tell them in person. Why hasn’t he?
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
I’m not trying to be antagonistic at all. But we all have things that we don’t tell our parents because it will only upset them and its none of their business anyway. A few of mine: My mom doesn’t know that I met my fiance on an online dating site. Its not her business and it would only upset her. When I was a smoker I didn’t tell them. When I had to take out a payday loan she didn’t know. I’m not scared to tell her, I just don’t see a reason to put us through that. Those things are not her business and would only cause her to worry. This is pretty much the same thing. When it comes to a wedding though they do need to, because they need to be able to decide what they can support.Really? That comment sounds antagonistic. And if you don’t believe that it is any of their business, then telling them shouldn’t be a problem.
He doesn’t sound so independent to me. It sounds like he knows this will upset them and he is afraid to do it. And unless his unbelief is new, he has had a few times to tell them in person. Why hasn’t he?
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Nate13
Guest
It’s always how things are. If its something good then we want to tell everyone so they will be happy for us and we can bask in their praise. If its something bad then it all of sudden becomes none of their business. Funny how that works… It seems to me he has already all but disowned himself from his family.Really? That comment sounds antagonistic. And if you don’t believe that it is any of their business, then telling them shouldn’t be a problem.
He doesn’t sound so independent to me. It sounds like he knows this will upset them and he is afraid to do it. And unless his unbelief is new, he has had a few times to tell them in person. Why hasn’t he?
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PatriceA
Guest
And what if they feel you both have blindsided them in this whole situation? You have very much put them on the defensive at this point. You haven’t given them much time to process the whole situation by springing all this information on them face to face. You’ve set them up to a certain extent. Surely there was a time that your fiance could have told his family he was atheist before now. So there was a separation between that information and your wedding plans and your future as an extended family member. He really owed his parents that much, to come to them as an individual and tell them he was no longer believing as a Catholic. Parents don’t have to know everything, but they should be given the respect and opportunity to digest the information that their child no longer believes in the faith they were raised without the added information of a wedding and marriage.
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faithfully
Guest
…To an atheist. A person they are likely to blame. 'Cause apparently, he was not an atheist (at least he never admitted to it) before YOU came along. Moved in with him. Oh, the corruptions of such sin. It’s blinding!
Oh, I hope they are only deeply wounded who will pray with all their might. Because I can nearly hear the accusations. I do fear this has serious ugly potential. I suggest you NOT be there when he tells them. Things said in anger could be impossible to repair.
Final nail… meet coffin.
Do they already know you are an atheist? If they do, this might not be as suprising to them as you think. I don’t know anyone Catholic (could be my small bubble world), who would EVER consider dating, let alone marrying, an atheist. Agnostic, sure. A total non believer, with no room for a different opinion? Nope, nuh-uh.
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SwizzleStick
Guest
Realistically? You believe that? If so, I’m not sure you understand a thing about faith and family. This is truly a sad situation. The family is going to be devastated.
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