Evangelicals with gay children challenging church

[Thorolfr]

I agree with all of this.

Do you agree that being intersex is a defect, roughly in the same way that being blind or being obsessive-compulsive is a defect?

It is not always easy to decide whether certain characteristics are definitely defective or not. To give an example, psychiatrists have decided that certain people have a “disorder” who have difficulty sitting still and concentrating on certain tasks (especially ones that they might consider to be boring) and alternatively to hyperfocus, some times for hours on end, on things that interest them. They have called this Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. But some scientists wonder if maybe these qualities are normal in certain people and fall at one far end of a spectrum. It has been shown that ADHD is probably genetic since it does seem to run in families and men with this condition are more likely to have a father with this condition. Many people who have been diagnosed with ADHD do perhaps happen to be more creative than some people. The ability to hyperfocus for long periods on certain interesting tasks can be an upside in some types of tasks. So in human evolution, perhaps people with ADHD were good at certain tasks (watching out for predators for example) but are now not so good at sitting behind a desk and doing a boring paperwork job in a modern society.

 

[clem456]

I disagree.

Because homosexuality is out in the open today, the first impression anyone has when observing two people of the same sex being physical with each other is a definite indication of their sexuality. (Homosexual)

To some people that would be scandalous. To others it would be quite acceptable…

“Mommy, why are those two men holding hands?”

“They must be gay,sweetheart”

“Oh, OK, that’s cool.”

From a personal perspective, I would not find it scandalous at all. I am from San Francisco, where we stand behind our gays.

So two men express their intimacy at Mass by holding hands. Or a man and a woman hold hands, or she puts her head on her husband’s shoulder, or grabs his buttcheek playfully. Or the men do those things.
Are these things appropriate by common sense standards at Mass? No. Is it appropriate at a business meeting? No.

Let’s not blow smoke and say intimacy is not intimacy and can be engaged in at any time we please.
If couples engage each other in intimate behaviors at Mass, should they be thrown out? No. But it’s to **their own detriment **to deny common sense and pretend they are entitled to do whatever they please.

Likewise it’s folly for the gay agenda to claim marriage, which belongs to a man and a woman. Ironically, it hurts the cause of human rights and human dignity.

 

[MJJean]

I disagree.

Because homosexuality is out in the open today, the first impression anyone has when observing two people of the same sex being physical with each other is a definite indication of their sexuality. (Homosexual)

To some people that would be scandalous. To others it would be quite acceptable…

I see your disagree and raise you a disagree!

If two people of the same sex happen to be hugging, holding a hand, or offering a shoulder and someone automatically assumes they are gay that person is scandalizing themselves. The people expressing caring and affection aren’t responsible for what others think when engaging in normal expressions of affection.

So two men express their intimacy at Mass by holding hands. Or a man and a woman hold hands, or she puts her head on her husband’s shoulder, or grabs his buttcheek playfully. Or the men do those things.
Are these things appropriate by common sense standards at Mass? No. Is it appropriate at a business meeting? No.

Let’s not blow smoke and say intimacy is not intimacy and can be engaged in at any time we please.
If couples engage each other in intimate behaviors at Mass, should they be thrown out? No. But it’s to **their own detriment **to deny common sense and pretend they are entitled to do whatever they please.

Likewise it’s folly for the gay agenda to claim marriage, which belongs to a man and a woman. Ironically, it hurts the cause of human rights and human dignity.

I disagree. First, Mass is not a business meeting. Second, I don’t think anyone sees grabbing or pinching a butt cheek as appropriate at Mass. Lastly, I don’t know where you attend Mass, but where I go it is quite common to see married and engaged couples hold hands, place their hand on the knee of the other, put their heads on the shoulder of the other and no one bats an eye. Not even our Pastor when he sits among us when there is a visiting priest presiding. Sometimes the Mass can be an emotional experience and it’s not uncommon to see people of the same gender offering comfort and caring in the form of hugs, hand holding, and a shoulder to lean on. Especially if they know the person is experiencing some kind of difficulty.

I wonder if this is a regional thing. People here generally don’t consider physical affection to be intimacy unless the touching involves breasts, genitals, or buttocks or the kiss includes the use of tongues or a lingering touch of lips.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I wonder if this is a regional thing. People here generally don’t consider physical affection to be intimacy unless the touching involves breasts, genitals, or buttocks or the kiss includes the use of tongues or a lingering touch of lips.

I thought the same thing. I cannot imagine anyone in Michigan (I live here too) thinking that I was gay, if I gave a sincere hug to another man during the sign of peace.

Perhaps San Francisco is different. If so, that’s a pity. Everyone needs same-sex physical affection. It’s sad if straight people have to keep hands off just so they aren’t considered gay.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

So two men express their intimacy at Mass by holding hands. Or a man and a woman hold hands, or she puts her head on her husband’s shoulder, or grabs his buttcheek playfully. Or the men do those things.
Are these things appropriate by common sense standards at Mass? No. Is it appropriate at a business meeting? No.

Let’s not blow smoke and say intimacy is not intimacy and can be engaged in at any time we please.
If couples engage each other in intimate behaviors at Mass, should they be thrown out? No. But it’s to **their own detriment **to deny common sense and pretend they are entitled to do whatever they please.

Likewise it’s folly for the gay agenda to claim marriage, which belongs to a man and a woman. Ironically, it hurts the cause of human rights and human dignity.

She puts her head on the shoulder of her husband? That’s a problem?

 

[SMGS127]

She puts her head on the shoulder of her husband? That’s a problem?

My thoughts exactly too. I’ve rested my head on the shoulder of one of my best friends (male) before during Mass. I see no problem with it, or with holding hands (another commonality during sitting portions of Mass or during the Our Father).

 

[Prodigal_Son]

My thoughts exactly too. I’ve rested my head on the shoulder of one of my best friends (male) before during Mass. I see no problem with it, or with holding hands (another commonality during sitting portions of Mass or during the Our Father).

I’ve given a longish, romantic kiss to my wife, when we were both standing in FRONT of the church. In the middle of mass!

 

[Prodigal_Son]

It is not always easy to decide whether certain characteristics are definitely defective or not. To give an example, psychiatrists have decided that certain people have a “disorder” who have difficulty sitting still and concentrating on certain tasks (especially ones that they might consider to be boring) and alternatively to hyperfocus, some times for hours on end, on things that interest them. They have called this Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. But some scientists wonder if maybe these qualities are normal in certain people and fall at one far end of a spectrum. It has been shown that ADHD is probably genetic since it does seem to run in families and men with this condition are more likely to have a father with this condition. Many people who have been diagnosed with ADHD do perhaps happen to be more creative than some people. The ability to hyperfocus for long periods on certain interesting tasks can be an upside in some types of tasks. So in human evolution, perhaps people with ADHD were good at certain tasks (watching out for predators for example) but are now not so good at sitting behind a desk and doing a boring paperwork job in a modern society.

Sure, I agree that some things are vague, and it’s hard to tell if we’re dealing with a defect or just a trait.

But what about being intersex? Isn’t this clearly a defect? Can’t we say that without insulting intersex people – just as I say that being paraplegic is a defect, even though I have nothing against paraplegics?

If you don’t think being intersex is a defect, can you explain why? As always, I’m open to new understandings.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Just to be clear…

In public, a man and woman holding hands on a park bench or putting a head on a shoulder is not objectionable behavior since the attraction between a man and a woman is NATURAL.

Two men or two women holding hands or putting a head on a shoulder will provoke an assumption of homosexuality. Why?

Because an attraction between people of the same sex is not natural. Also we are being conditioned by the media and the gay community to ACCEPT this as normal. The two persons may not be homosexual but their behavior is indicative of that condition.

The scandal is not the fault of those being intimate, rather it is the fault of those promoting the acceptance of homosexual behavior. The general public is only reacting to what it sees on TV.

 

[Ositokc]

Just to be clear…

In public, a man and woman holding hands on a park bench or putting a head on a shoulder is not objectionable behavior since the attraction between a man and a woman is NATURAL.

Two men or two women holding hands or putting a head on a shoulder will provoke an assumption of homosexuality. Why?

Because an attraction between people of the same sex is not natural. Also we are being conditioned by the media and the gay community to ACCEPT this as normal. The two persons may not be homosexual but their behavior is indicative of that condition.

The scandal is not the fault of those being intimate, rather it is the fault of those promoting the acceptance of homosexual behavior. The general public is only reacting to what it sees on TV.

Just to be clear…

You can believe or accept anything you want when you see 2 men or 2 women holding hands or putting a head on a shoulder, gay or straight. But you can never ban or impose your religious beliefs upon those who do not share them. I do not see any “scandal” here. In your opinion, should this be banned or against the law as it is in Russia under the guise of “protecting homosexuality from children.” What is your endgame here?

In this free and wonderful land we must respect and yes tolerate all our brothers and sisters and not discriminate against them just because they want to express affection towards their significant other.

 

[Rau]

Just to be clear…

In public, a man and woman holding hands on a park bench or putting a head on a shoulder is not objectionable behavior since the attraction between a man and a woman is NATURAL.

Is the attraction of two men (call them homosexual if you wish for sake of debate) for each other contrived?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

False equivalence between pairs is evident in identifying ‘gay/straight’ as somehow similar to ‘masculine/feminine’ or ‘male/female’. In the majority of SSA couplings, the pair are seldom part of a polarity - the feminine usually stay with the feminine be they male or female, the masculine with the masculine because the essence of the attraction is self-love; whereas within unions, polarity is as essential to the creation of something different from the pair alone, husband-wife.
There is no such ‘one flesh’ among two people with the same genitalia who establish a mere assertion that their will & desire trumps a natural union. The inability of such couplings can never generate life in any manner through their own coupling but are obliged to rent or borrow the genetic material from outside the couple reveals that there is no true bond within the cream world taking place - it’s all artifice, delusion and fraud.

I love how if a gay couple exhibits a butch/femme split then that is a problem and if they are both butch or both femme that is a problem too; damned it you do, damned if you don’t.

So two men express their intimacy at Mass by holding hands. Or a man and a woman hold hands, or she puts her head on her husband’s shoulder, or grabs his buttcheek playfully. Or the men do those things.
Are these things appropriate by common sense standards at Mass? No. Is it appropriate at a business meeting? No.

Let’s not blow smoke and say intimacy is not intimacy and can be engaged in at any time we please.
If couples engage each other in intimate behaviors at Mass, should they be thrown out? No. But it’s to **their own detriment **to deny common sense and pretend they are entitled to do whatever they please.

Likewise it’s folly for the gay agenda to claim marriage, which belongs to a man and a woman. Ironically, it hurts the cause of human rights and human dignity.

I don’t see them holding hands or one reclining their head on another is bad; if you think back John reclined on Jesus’s bosom during the Last Super.

Just to be clear…

In public, a man and woman holding hands on a park bench or putting a head on a shoulder is not objectionable behavior since the attraction between a man and a woman is NATURAL.

Two men or two women holding hands or putting a head on a shoulder will provoke an assumption of homosexuality. Why?

Because an attraction between people of the same sex is not natural. Also we are being conditioned by the media and the gay community to ACCEPT this as normal. The two persons may not be homosexual but their behavior is indicative of that condition.

The scandal is not the fault of those being intimate, rather it is the fault of those promoting the acceptance of homosexual behavior. The general public is only reacting to what it sees on TV.

Before heterosexuality was invented, especially before the 19th century, it was quite normal for men to express physical intimacy.

 

[BrassAnkles]

It really doesn’t matter if there is the perception that people won’t be scandalized or not as the Bible is clear that we need to be especially on our guard to not cause our weak brothers to sin. Even persons that accept homosexuality are scandalized when they see public forms of homosexual affection because it only entrenches their confusion even more, thus causing their conscience to be further defiled.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

It really doesn’t matter if there is the perception that people won’t be scandalized or not as the Bible is clear that we need to be especially on our guard to not cause our weak brothers to sin. Even persons that accept homosexuality are scandalized when they see public forms of homosexual affection because it only entrenches their confusion even more, thus causing their conscience to be further defiled.

Here is the problem, same sex physical intimacy (not sexual) used to be regarded as perfectly normal and good in an era where the Church was far stronger than today and she permeated the fabric of society.

 

[BrassAnkles]

Here is the problem, same sex physical intimacy (not sexual) used to be regarded as perfectly normal and good in an era where the Church was far stronger than today and she permeated the fabric of society.

Not exactly. The established standards of acceptable physical contact varies between cultures and there is always an acceptable limit as to what is considered normal same sex public contact.

 

[MJJean]

I thought the same thing. I cannot imagine anyone in Michigan (I live here too) thinking that I was gay, if I gave a sincere hug to another man during the sign of peace.

Perhaps San Francisco is different. If so, that’s a pity. Everyone needs same-sex physical affection. It’s sad if straight people have to keep hands off just so they aren’t considered gay.

I know you have struggles with SSA and I live in your general area, if I remember rightly. If I knew you IRL and saw you hugging a man at Mass I certainly wouldn’t assume you were wannabe lovers or anything. I’d just think you were greeting or comforting or simply offering brotherly love to a fellow human being.

But maybe that’s because I’m a hugger. Since I’ve been attending Mass in The D for a year and a half and have done some volunteering I have made “church friends”. (I call them that because I live in the 'burbs I generally don’t see these folks unless we’re at church or a church function). I get about 15 hugs and some kisses on the cheek (male and female) every Sunday.

Just to be clear…

In public, a man and woman holding hands on a park bench or putting a head on a shoulder is not objectionable behavior since the attraction between a man and a woman is NATURAL.

Two men or two women holding hands or putting a head on a shoulder will provoke an assumption of homosexuality. Why?

Because an attraction between people of the same sex is not natural. Also we are being conditioned by the media and the gay community to ACCEPT this as normal. The two persons may not be homosexual but their behavior is indicative of that condition.

The scandal is not the fault of those being intimate, rather it is the fault of those promoting the acceptance of homosexual behavior. The general public is only reacting to what it sees on TV.

Umm, no.

First, hugging, hand holding, and a shoulder to lean on aren’t necessarily indications of attraction. Those things are merely physical ways of expressing feeling. Could be attraction, yes. Could just as easily be comfort and caring without anything resembling attraction. Second,

There is nothing unnatural about those of the same sex showing each other affection. There is no reason to assume they are homosexual simply because they have hugged, are holding hands, or one is resting their head on the shoulder of the other. It’s the most natural thing in the world for people to express caring, support, and affection in such a way.

Now, if we’re talking “making out”, I would agree. I see two guys hugging I think nothing of it. I see two guys, for example, tongue kissing…well, that’s when I think it’s reasonable to assume they are not just friends.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I know you have struggles with SSA and I live in your general area, if I remember rightly. If I knew you IRL and saw you hugging a man at Mass I certainly wouldn’t assume you were wannabe lovers or anything. I’d just think you were greeting or comforting or simply offering brotherly love to a fellow human being.

But maybe that’s because I’m a hugger. Since I’ve been attending Mass in The D for a year and a half and have done some volunteering I have made “church friends”. (I call them that because I live in the 'burbs I generally don’t see these folks unless we’re at church or a church function). I get about 15 hugs and some kisses on the cheek (male and female) every Sunday.

You go to church in the D? Sweetness. Me too. We should, like, meet, or something.

CAF people with real bodies? Who knew?

 

[MJJean]

You go to church in the D? Sweetness. Me too. We should, like, meet, or something.

CAF people with real bodies? Who knew?

I was thinking something similar when I was writing my post. Check your PM’s.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Umm, no.

First, hugging, hand holding, and a shoulder to lean on aren’t necessarily indications of attraction. Those things are merely physical ways of expressing feeling. Could be attraction, yes. Could just as easily be comfort and caring without anything resembling attraction. Second,

There is nothing unnatural about those of the same sex showing each other affection. There is no reason to assume they are homosexual simply because they have hugged, are holding hands, or one is resting their head on the shoulder of the other. It’s the most natural thing in the world for people to express caring, support, and affection in such a way.

I just don’t agree.

It is about time we got back to basics…

When boys reach a certain age (determined by parents) they should be taught that it is not manly for boys/men to hug each other. Men shake hands. Men slap each other on the back. Men do “high-fives” or “knuckles”. Men hug their wives. Men who are good buddies or are related can do a brief hug with some back slapping…but it is brief.

 

[Thorolfr]

I just don’t agree.

It is about time we got back to basics…

When boys reach a certain age (determined by parents) they should be taught that it is not manly for boys/men to hug each other. Men shake hands. Men slap each other on the back. Men do “high-fives” or “knuckles”. Men hug their wives. Men who are good buddies or are related can do a brief hug with some back slapping…but it is brief.

In France where I lived for several years growing up, straight men even kiss each other on each cheek. If they are good friends, they will kiss each other on each cheek twice.