Events vindicate Vatican viewpoint

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Brad:
Right. People were saying the universities were not biased either until the truth came out that 7 out of 8 professors are democrats.
That doesn’t make the professors biased, does it? It just makes them smart, open-minded people, like all professors should be.
Thousands of our soliders? Think again and try counting from the beginning. It hasn’t been thousands.
Well, we know its been at least a thousand killed. The number maimed, though is likely several times that number - maybe 4 or 5 thousand kids have had their legs blown off, or maybe just seriously burned, or whatever. “Casualties.”
Looks like you should count your lucky stars that you live in the US of A and you had a leader that was man enough to stop a Middle East madman before one of his sympathizers ended up blowing up a building you happened to be walking in.
What are you talking about, here? Does not compute. Was Saddam going to start waging terrorism in the United States? Who told you this? Why should we think this?
How many times do we have to repeat the tired arguments that Sadaam was given 15 or so chances to adhere to UN resolutions and he said to the UN this: “kiss my ___”. It was a last resort. For you and otherise that assume that madmen are also stupid, don’t count on it. Hitler was a genius, Stalin wasn’t far behind, and Sadaam was a disciple of Stalin. If you think he didn’t play games with diplomats around the world and he didn’t have the capability to rid his weapons when given ample time to do so then you, again, should thank God you live in a country where doing little thinking will not get you killed or imprisoned.
But was there an imminent threat? No. Was there a link to 9/11? No. Was invading Iraq the right thing to do? No.
 
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Brad:
Just to help you out with your faithfulness. Being faithful does not mean putting words in the Pope’s mouth. The Pope never said Iraq did not have WMDs and the Pope never said that war with Iraq is unjust and the Pope never said that Iraq did not support terrorists and terrorism.
He never said Iraq did any of those things, either.
 
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jlw:
No, it means what it means. liberal ideology put out in university classrooms outweighs conservative thought by a factor of 7:1.

I guarantee that if the hiring processes at universities were conducted on merit, without a “thought police” mentality, those numbers may never be 1:1, but maybe 3:1, and with that, a better diversity of thought and freedom of speech would prevail.

And that’s a good thing.

Oh, and republicans would start winning every election because the youth vote for democrats would shrink considerably!! 😃
So what your saying is that as long as YOU operate the thought police then everything will be OK, but if THEY operate the thought police it’s all wrong. Hmmmmm…:confused:
 
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Nichevo:
Again, I ask, why do you use the Church to justify your leftist leanings? The Holy Father is no advocate of the leftist society you seem to envision, remember he suffered under and then helped bring down the last one.
The Holy Father is no advocate of the Liberation Theology you embrace. How is that you hold these beliefs, and advocate a theology that finds its companionship with a form of government that seeks to deny man the very freedom given to him by God? How does this make you a faithful Catholic?
The Papal Encyclical Sollicitudo rei Socialis says-
  1. …One of the greatest injustices in the contemporary world consists precisely in this: that the ones who possess much are relatively few and those who possess almost nothing are many. It is the injustice of the poor distribution of the goods and services originally intended for all. This then is the picture: there are some people the few who possess much who do not really succeed in “being” because, through a reversal of the hierarchy of values, they are hindered by the cult of “having”; and there are others the many who have little or nothing–who do not succeed in realizing their basic human vocation because they are deprived of essential goods.
    Code:
      The evil does not consist in "having" as such, but in         possessing without regard for the quality and the ordered hierarchy of         the goods one has. Quality and hierarchy arise from the subordination of         goods and their availability to man's "being" and his true         vocation.
    
      This shows that although development has a necessary economic         dimension, since it must supply the greatest possible number of the         world's inhabitants with an availability of goods essential for them         "to be", it is not limited to that dimension. If it is limited         to this, then it turns against those whom it is meant to benefit.
36… If the present situation can be attributed to difficulties of various kinds, it is not out of place to speak of “structures of sin”, which, as I stated in my Apostolic Exhortation Reconciliatio et Paenitentia, are rooted in personal sin, and thus always linked to the concrete acts of individuals who introduce these structures, consolidate them and make them difficult to remove.[65] And thus they grow stronger, spread, and become the source of other sins, and so influence people’s behavior.
Code:
       "Sin" and "structures of sin" are categories         which are seldom applied to the situation of the contemporary world.         However, one cannot easily gain a profound understanding of the reality         that confronts us unless we give a name to the root of the evils which         afflict us.
38… It is above all a question of interdependence, sensed as a system determining relationships in the contemporary world, in its economic, cultural, political and religious elements, and accepted as a moral category. When interdependence becomes recognized in this way, the correlative response as a moral and social attitude, as a “virtue”, is solidarity. This then is not a feeling of vague compassion or shallow distress at the misfortunes of so many people, both near and far. On the contrary, it is a firm and persevering determination to commit oneself to the common good; that is to say to the good of all and of each individual, because we are all really responsible for all. This determination is based on the solid conviction that what is hindering full development is that desire for profit and that thirst for power already mentioned. These attitudes and “structures of sin” are only conquered–presupposing the help of divine grace–by a diametrically opposed attitude: a commitment to the good of one’s neighbor with the readiness, in the Gospel sense, to “lose oneself” for the sake of the other instead of exploiting him, and to “serve him” instead of oppressing him for one’s own advantage (cf. Mt 10:40-42; 20: 25; Mk 10: 42-45; Lk 22: 25-27)
 
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Brad:
Everyone, including the UN, the Vatican, and former President Clinton thought Iraq had WMDs. Your subject title is yet another mislead and an effort for you to put words in the Vatican’s mouth.
You are missing the teachings of the Catholic Church. Many people might sincerely believe Iraq had WMDs. The question the Pope rightfully poses is the certainty of that knowledge for it is just to wage war, kill civilians and torture Iraqis.
 
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jlw:
Like it or not Norwich, we haven’t proved that he didn’t hide them.

From a lawyers perspective, a drug-dealer who flushes his coke down the toilet seconds before the police raid his crackhouse can’t be convicted of possession, but the TRUTH that he HAD drugs and is still a drug-dealer and a menace to society doesn’t change.
That must work out well for you then. Since we can never prove with 100% certainty that Saddam did not hide those weapons in the desert and they simply are not found. We can be 99.9% sure, but you will still go around telling people that we do not know if he had them or not.
 
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Mac6yver:
That must work out well for you then. Since we can never prove with 100% certainty that Saddam did not hide those weapons in the desert and they simply are not found. We can be 99.9% sure, but you will still go around telling people that we do not know if he had them or not.
We are SURE as 5000 dead Kurds he HAD them, aren’t we!! Where they went was never proven!!
 
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JakeW:
We are SURE as 5000 dead Kurds he HAD them, aren’t we!! Where they went was never proven!!
The UN weapons inspectors found and destroyed them in the 1990’s. Remember Scott Ritter? Everything he said was true wasn’t it?
 
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Matt25:
The UN weapons inspectors found and destroyed them in the 1990’s. Remember Scott Ritter? Everything he said was true wasn’t it?
Ah yes, Scott Ritter. He changed his mind a few times. Hard to believe, no matter whose side of the arguement we are on.

So Clinton bombed Iraq for nothing, eh??
 
Matt,

Your quotes from “Sollicitudo rei Socialis” address economic inequality. No one denies that this exists. How does this demonstrate support for your socialist belief by the Church? It would seem that you believe forced redistribution of wealth is the answer. I believe that the problems our world faces need to be addressed through free will. Just as we accept (or refuse) salvation through free will so we must help others in the same way. Christ did not promise a utopia in this world nor, did he mandate the establishment of one by force.
Code:
Forcing someone to give up what they have for someone else at the point of a bayonet, no matter how well intentioned, accomplishes nothing. Only further division results begetting a generation of future revolutionaries intent on undoing with guns what you accomplished with your own. The exercise of free will to help others is a slower going but, more stable method of addressing the economic problems we face. I am far more willing to give of my own accord than to have the government tax me out of it or have some platitude spewing revolutionary force me to do it.
Our key point of difference is that I see a society where through free will there can be freedom from want whereas you would prefer a society wanting freedom.
 
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Matt25:
That is correct
So his intelligence was wrong?? ALL the Democrats on the floor of the senate who went on and on and on that year praising the president for taking unilateral action against Iraq in 98…they were wrong too??

I don’t think they were.
 
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Nichevo:
Matt,

Your quotes from “Sollicitudo rei Socialis” address economic inequality. No one denies that this exists. How does this demonstrate support for your socialist belief by the Church? It would seem that you believe forced redistribution of wealth is the answer. I believe that the problems our world faces need to be addressed through free will. Just as we accept (or refuse) salvation through free will so we must help others in the same way. Christ did not promise a utopia in this world nor, did he mandate the establishment of one by force.

Forcing someone to give up what they have for someone else at the point of a bayonet, no matter how well intentioned, accomplishes nothing. Only further division results begetting a generation of future revolutionaries intent on undoing with guns what you accomplished with your own. The exercise of free will to help others is a slower going but, more stable method of addressing the economic problems we face. I am far more willing to give of my own accord than to have the government tax me out of it or have some platitude spewing revolutionary force me to do it.

Our key point of difference is that I see a society where through free will there can be freedom from want whereas you would prefer a society wanting freedom.
Your evidence that I favour forced redistribution of wealth at the point of a bayonet is? (bearing in mind that I am a Pacifist)

Your evidence that I favour a society lacking in freedom, along the lines perhaps of the US backed dictatorship of Pinochet in the 70’s and 80’s, is what?

I do not actually know much about Liberation Theology so I cannot claim to be influenced by it. Like the Holy Father and many Catholic thinkers I am influenced by the thought of Simone Weil. She was French and left wing so obviously you will feel free to ignore and/or ridicule her. Nonetheless she was an important and profound thinker which is why echoes of her thought appear so frequently in the words of the Holy Father.
 
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Matt25:
Your evidence that I favour forced redistribution of wealth at the point of a bayonet is? (bearing in mind that I am a Pacifist)
Your defense of Che Guevara in another thread. The leftist economic philosophy has always been that we are not responsible enough to manage our own money and therefore it is the job of government to take it away from us and distribute according to what it deems to be “fair.” I was not aware you are a pacifist and if I was in error concerning your willingness to use force to achieve this state, it was due to your defense of those who, in the past, have done so.
Your evidence that I favour a society lacking in freedom, along the lines perhaps of the US backed dictatorship of Pinochet in the 70’s and 80’s, is what?
See above re: defense of marxist insurgents. Why is it the left always screams “Pinochet! Pinochet!” If you advocate redistribution of wealth without the consent of those who have earned it, you advocate a society lacking in freedom.
I do not actually know much about Liberation Theology so I cannot claim to be influenced by it. Like the Holy Father and many Catholic thinkers I am influenced by the thought of Simone Weil. She was French and left wing so obviously you will feel free to ignore and/or ridicule her. Nonetheless she was an important and profound thinker which is why echoes of her thought appear so frequently in the words of the Holy Father.
I don’t ridicule her or ignore her. I do view her politcal ideas within the context of the time in which she lived along with her own predjudices and worldview. She was after all a Spanish Civil war veteran (as part of the anarchist movement), a part of the French resistance, a labor organizer, a factory worker, and teacher. these are all areas where the socialist philosophy was espoused to the minimalization of all others. I tend to discount her philosophical applicability to the world in which we live today.

Even though she criticized Marxism, she still tends to see things in the Marxist dialectic of oppressor and oppressed. In The Need For Roots, she left me scratching my head as she called for freedom in Europe but, condemned the best means of achieving this freedom (Capitalism). I will say though, that I did enjoy reading Waiting for God.
 
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Nichevo:
the best means of achieving this freedom (Capitalism).
Why is capitalism the best way of achieving freedom? Jesus wasn’t a capitalist, he owned nothing. Peter was; as a fisherman, but, he left it all behind to follow Jesus. Mathew was, but a reluctant one who sent the results of his efforts to Rome. The only one of the Apostles who was a real capitalist and made money from Jesus was Judas.

From what I can see of capitalism it simply removes money from the poor and gives it to the rich. So called “Trickle Down” is a falacy. If it worked, the USA as the richest nation on earth should have no poor. Yet the differentials between your rich and poor is probably (with one or two minor exceptions) the greatest in the world.

The argument that the rich create employment for the poor is also a nonsense. Without the rich the poor would still produce food, they would still have places to live, they would probably make their own motor cars or washing machines, they just wouldn’t have to pay so much for them.

Part of my industry is sewage farming. We often comapare sewage to capitalists, the largest ones always float to the surface.😉
 
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Norwich:
Why is capitalism the best way of achieving freedom? Jesus wasn’t a capitalist, he owned nothing.
Where did this come from? Do you have a Bible quote that says Jesus wasn’t a capitalist and owned nothing?
 
Duelfer: ‘A lot of material left Iraq and went to Syria’
Iraq Survey Group head does not rule out Saddam’s transfer of WMD


Duelfer agreed that a large amount of material had been transferred by Iraq to Syria before the March 2003 war.

“A lot of materials left Iraq and went to Syria,” Duelfer said. “There was certainly a lot of traffic across the border points. We’ve got a lot of data to support that, including people discussing it. But whether in fact in any of these trucks there was WMD-related materials, I cannot say.”
 
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gilliam:
Where did this come from? Do you have a Bible quote that says Jesus wasn’t a capitalist and owned nothing?
Don’t tell me!!! in your book he was a corporate director of a massive conglomerate dedicated to changing the world in his image for the betterment of mankind!!! (and making money on the side).

Not a humble carpenters son who travelled the wastes of Palestine living in others houses and preaching peace on earth and goodwill to all men. Who directed those who asked to give away all they had to follow him and who said that it was easier for a camel (mis-translation it was actually a rope) to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I know people complain about a lack of a good catholic education, I didn’t think it was that bad!!!
 
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Norwich:
Why is capitalism the best way of achieving freedom? Jesus wasn’t a capitalist, he owned nothing. Peter was; as a fisherman, but, he left it all behind to follow Jesus. Mathew was, but a reluctant one who sent the results of his efforts to Rome. The only one of the Apostles who was a real capitalist and made money from Jesus was Judas.
Ahhhh there you are I was wondering when you’d pop up. Judas was a thief not a Capitalist, nice attempt at insinuation, you should really try to be more subtle. Capitalism is the best system as it allows us to exercise the gift given to us by God, free will. If a man has his wealth taken from him against his will and it is used to feed the poor, and he condemns the act, does this lead to his salvation? what about a man who uses his wealth on his own to take care of the poor? He truly is following Christ by following God’s will of his own choosing.

Jesus was a capitalist! Do you think he and Joseph had a carpentry business for fun? Was he a philanthropic Bob Vila? Did Joseph and Jesus have to work or did they go out every morning and gather up manna that had fallen over night like the Hebrews of old? he also had to own some things, like his clothes. I doubt they were rented like a tux. What of his carpentry tools? In his parables he uses capitalists as postive examples; the vineyard owner who pays a good wage to all the workers, the father of the prodigal son, the master who distributes talents, the list goes on. He also condemns those who take the earnings of others such as the dishonest servant in Matthew. (24:45) What about those Capitalists who took care of him? Mary, Martha, and Lazarus were comfortable as was Joseph of Arimathea, did he condemn for their wealth? You leftists are constantly trying to make Christ out to be this socialist revolutionary that he wasn’t. Get over it.
From what I can see of capitalism it simply removes money from the poor and gives it to the rich. So called “Trickle Down” is a falacy. If it worked, the USA as the richest nation on earth should have no poor. Yet the differentials between your rich and poor is probably (with one or two minor exceptions) the greatest in the world.
From what you can see? look harder. No nation should have poor but this world is not perfect nor will it be until the second coming. There will always be inequality, we must use our free will (there it is again) to do the best we can to alleviate it. Trickle down theory works far better than the socialist inspired economic systems that dominate Europe. Compare our unemployment rate, our per capita income, etc. We continue to grow because capitalism rewards exceeding the standard while socialism creates a stagnant swamp of enforced mediocrity. Our poor also have a belief that they can move beyond where they are (and they can, I am proof of this) to achieve. this is because of capitalism! Many techno-billionaires started with an idea and a willingness to work. Our list of self made people is astounding, the most recent of yours with which I am familiar is J.K. Rowling.
The argument that the rich create employment for the poor is also a nonsense. Without the rich the poor would still produce food, they would still have places to live, they would probably make their own motor cars or washing machines, they just wouldn’t have to pay so much for them.
You actually believe that tripe? Who provides the capital to mine the ore, build the factories, to melt the steel to build the car? Who provides the capital to build the facility, to buy the equipment, to pay for the research, to find the medicine, that is the cure? it’s not the local collective where everything would be held up by committee. Who provides the money to build the schools that produce our future leaders, entrepeneurs, doctors, ministers, etc? How would someone build their own car or washing machine? Of course they wouldn’t have to pay so much for them, they wouldn’t exist! It is capitalism that drives the creative spirit to do more.
Part of my industry is sewage farming. We often comapare sewage to capitalists, the largest ones always float to the surface.😉
Part of my industry (military) is sewage removal. We find that the largest chunks of sewage are those who sought to take the wealth from others who had earned it and distribute it as they wished.
 
buffalo said:
Duelfer: ‘A lot of material left Iraq and went to Syria’
Iraq Survey Group head does not rule out Saddam’s transfer of WMD


Duelfer agreed that a large amount of material had been transferred by Iraq to Syria before the March 2003 war.

“A lot of materials left Iraq and went to Syria,” Duelfer said. “There was certainly a lot of traffic across the border points. We’ve got a lot of data to support that, including people discussing it. But whether in fact in any of these trucks there was WMD-related materials, I cannot say.”

Sattelite photos of the trucks can be found at www.globalsecurity.org
 
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