Evidence against Hydroxychloroquine

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sloancaprice said:
If you look at the Little Ice Age as an example, there was the Great Famine in the 1310s, the bubonic plague which may have been able to flourish because humans were less nourished during that time, witch hunts (Pope Innocent VIII blamed them for cold temperatures, the eventual ending of Viking settlements on Greenland, and the French Revolution (driven by food shortages), among others.

So, we have historical examples of food reduction as a result of climate change.
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I find myself agreeing with you in this example. I think we can add the late Roman Empire cooling period too.

But those are examples of cooling, not the “global warming” now being stated as the expected “climate change”. Get it cold enough and everything dies, no question about it.
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
Looks like you finally admitted that global cooling could have an effect on food production. After you’ve been going on about warming. Now have another look at the Maunder and Dalton Minimums. Just maybe you might understand why I am much more afraid of cooling than warming.
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If that did happen, it would be something to worry about. But it is not what is happening. What is happening is warming.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
If that did happen, it would be something to worry about. But it is not what is happening. What is happening is warming.
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Snow in May in Central Park, NYC is evidence of warming?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1258996203271802882

Snow in the UK in May is evidence of warming?

www.express.co.uk

UK weather forecast: Big FREEZE as temperatures plunge 12C in hours

THE UK is facing temperature drops of up to 12 degrees after the sunny bank holiday weekend and parts of the country could be hit by snow.
www.express.co.uk www.express.co.uk

But we’re baking … on your say so. I’ll believe my lying eyes.
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
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LeafByNiggle:
If that did happen, it would be something to worry about. But it is not what is happening. What is happening is warming.
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Snow in May in Central Park, NYC is evidence of warming?
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No, it is evidence of cherry-picking. As are your other “examples.”
 
LeafByNiggle said:
No, it is evidence of cherry-picking. As are your other “examples.”
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You go on pretending. I’ll believe my lying eyes.

www.3aw.com.au

Icy snap: Melbourne's coldest April day in over 20 years forecast this week

Victoria is headed for a cold snap this week, with the maximum temperature in Melbourne forecast to plummet to the lowest recorded in April since 1996. The mercury is expected to rise to a top of just 13° in Melbourne on Thursday and Friday. Bureau of Meterology senior forecaster Michael Efron...
www.3aw.com.au www.3aw.com.au

shanghaiist.com

Shanghaiist - China in bite-sized portions!

Founded in 2005, Shanghaiist has emerged as one of the most popular English-language websites about China, covering local news, events, food, and entertainment for a diverse audience of young and affluent urbanites.
shanghaiist.com shanghaiist.com
 
@JapaneseKappa’s article . . .
In the first of the two new studies published May 14 in the BMJ , researchers in France assessed the effectiveness and safety of hydroxychloroquine compared with standard care in 181 adults hospitalized with pneumonia due to COVID-19 who needed oxygen.
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I have explained here before why this is the wrong group.

This is the same type of cohorts as the VA study.
The second study, led by Qing Xie, from the department of infectious disease at the Shanghai Jiao Tong University School of Medicine, was conducted in China and included 150 adults hospitalized with mainly mild or moderate COVID-19. Half received hydroxychloroquine in addition to standard care and the others received standard care only.
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The same thing here too.

Patients that are bad enough to need hospitalization. Despite “mild or moderate COVID-19”, they still were to the point where they needed hospitalization.

If you review the mechanism, these results are just what you would expect.
 
The same problem here.

Then they derived their conclusions not based upon the patients per se, but on a model of adjustment.
They found that those taking hydroxychloroquine, either alone or with the antibiotic, were sicker than other patients to begin with and as time went on had a higher death rate. However, once the researchers statistically adjusted for the fact that the patients who took the drugs were sicker to start with, there was no statistical significance between the two death rates.
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This has the same problem as people who were criticizing hydroxychloroquine had.

These studies are not up to the gold standard.

They are not randomized, double blinded prospective studies.

And they chose a poor population for this to boot.

These articles JapaneseKappa, are just more inconclusive data reviews, with bias that are not blinded for, and stark biases by the reporting (your CNN article goes into “Trump”. How foolish of those CNN guys. If they want to report on a drug study, do so without politics. But the leftists at CNN just can’t help themselves.).
 
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To the readers here.

Don’t be fooled by these types of articles posted that we saw in the last two posts above.

They are long on politics and short on results.

Or they did not pick an appropriate population to treat.
Or they ignored synergistic benefits of other medications.

There are other studies that pick their cohorts appropriately and use other medications in synergy and are getting fine results.

Here is an article mentioning a study that shows benefit and also at the end discusses one one of the studies above (the JAMA study) that said the patients do no better or worse overall . . . .

Drug Combo with Hydroxychloroquine Promising: NYU Study​

By Alyssa Paolicelli New York City
PUBLISHED 7:18 AM ET May. 12, 2020

NEW YORK - Researchers at NYU’s Grossman School of Medicine found patients given the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine along with zinc sulphate and the antibiotic azithromycin were 44 percent less likely to die from the coronavirus.

“Certainly we have very limited options as far as what we have seen work for this infection so anything that may work is very exciting,” said Dr. Joseph Rahimian, Infectious Disease Specialist at NYU Langone Health.

The study looked at the records of 932 COVID-19 patients treated at local hospitals with hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin.

More than 400 of them were also given 100 milligrams of zinc daily.

Researchers said the patients given zinc were one and a half times more likely to recover, decreasing their need for intensive care.

One theory is that hydroxychloroquine may aid a cell’s ability to absorb the zinc which has antiviral properties and responds to the infection.

“It sort of boosts the zinc activity which is one of the reasons we thought to look at zinc here and in this observational study we did see a difference suggesting that maybe that boosting activity of the hydroxychloroquine with the zinc helps the zinc to work better and lead to a benefit,” Rahimian said.

Dr. Rahimian says patients in the more critical stages of infection did not fare as well.

And he cautioned that more research is needed - in particular a randomized controlled trial - to prove how and how well the drug combination works.

Meanwhile, a study in the Journal of the American Medical Association on Monday found that treating patients only with hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, or both did not reduce hospital deaths. . .
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The truth is we have not had time to do the needed randomized, prospective double-blind studies.

They will be coming. In the meantime, this is the best we have (along with a new antibody treatment I may post later in it’s own post as it is new).
 
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LeafByNiggle . . .
This is exactly what every reader should remember regarding every report of positive benefit too.
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Go back and re-read my posts. (You can start with the post of mine you partially quoted.)

Where I have commented on that I have always said that.

It has NOT been the other way around.

The left decided to politicize medication.
The left politicizes everything they touch.
 
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Cathoholic said:
Don’t be fooled by these types of articles posted that we saw in the last two posts above.
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Sloancaprice . . .
The last two posts above this one are from you. Are you saying we shouldn’t be fooled by what you post?
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Thanks for the correction.

I was alluding to the two posts
and the three hydroxychloroquine articles
(that I was commenting on in those posts).

Thanks again.
 
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LeafByNiggle said:
This is exactly what every reader should remember regarding every report of positive benefit too. Hey, if it’s good for the goose…
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It certainly took you long enough to realize that this consideration applied as much to your anti-HCQ posts as you applied to the pro-HCQ posts. But the change in your approach to this is commendable.
 
sloancaprice . . .
Yes, you should be more careful when you post multiple posts in a row on a thread.
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Your criticism is well-taken. Again many thanks.
 
What I’m getting out of all this:
  • HCQ isn’t perfect. It isn’t for everyone. It can’t be given to every Covid-19 patient. It won’t save every Covid-19 patient who takes it. Have to remember the part played by underlying conditions here.
  • It makes a huge difference when it is given: early, preferably before hospitalization vs when the patient is in the ICU.
  • Doctors are not too stupid to evaluate contraindications and side effects. But many anti-HCQ posters imply that doctors who prescribe HCQ for Covid-19 are that stupid.
  • HCQ needs to be given with zinc to get its best effect. Hence HCQ studies without zinc are suspect at best.
  • Since HCQ with zinc needs to be given early to get its best effect, studies that show waiting until patients are in the ICU and about to get ventilated before being given HCQ are suspect at best.
  • Since only 5% to 20% of patients survive being put on a ventilator (depending on who’s counting), we need therapies to be applied sooner than later with the object being to keep the patient out of the ICU.
  • If the patient goes into an ICU, there will be much higher rates of failure of any therapy applied at that point and this point applies to HCQ as well as other therapies. Wait until the last minute, of course it will be more likely to fail to make a difference. If they want to kill a therapy, that’s a good way to do it.
  • Studies regarding CQ instead of HCQ are not as germane to the discussion. However that 2005 NIH paper is evidence that the CDC did know that CQ and its successor HCQ were worth exploring in the wake of the SARS crisis.
  • There are already very sizable numbers of patients with long term histories of taking HCQ: residents of countries with malaria and patients with lupus or rheumatoid arthritis. From these people, there is a very sizable repository of knowledge regarding long term effects, contraindications and side effects. All of which some anti-HCQ people imply that doctors are too stupid to read let alone understand, let alone be permitted to implement.
  • There are differences between this community and Covid-19 patients, but one that seems to be missed is that HCQ treatment for Covid-19 patients is temporary. Several days at most. Something that seems to get lost in the shuffle.
  • What is missed (often intentionally, imo) is the degree to which the CDC and the CDC Foundation are tied to Big Pharma and Big Hospital companies. The dirty secret is that money talks here as much as it did with the ACA and it does in other politics and medicine and this goes a long way to explain why more expensive therapies associated with these companies are consistently preferred to less expensive therapies using generics, etc.
  • Along those lines, I linked to another less expensive therapy called MATH+ . That one isn’t getting much notice either. Why? Likely because Big Pharma won’t make money on it so it has to be buried.
 
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My issue is these studies show that at the point of being hospitalized, HCQ isn’t effective…but if you want to be treated earlier, before the point of hospitalization, you need to know you have Covid. People are just now starting to be able to be tested earlier and it’s very hit or miss if testing will be given to you.

At one point, we were told that there would be massive testing available for all. We aren’t even close to that! Too many people start to get mild symptoms and can crash within days of it. Delayed testing is almost as useless as no testing at all. We should, at this point in time, have places set up to test anyone that requests it…like we were supposed to have. I can’t take HCQ early if I can’t find out if I even have it. This needs fix in’.
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
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LeafByNiggle:
This is exactly what every reader should remember regarding every report of positive benefit too. Hey, if it’s good for the goose…
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It certainly took you long enough to realize that this consideration applied as much to your anti-HCQ posts as you applied to the pro-HCQ posts. But the change in your approach to this is commendable.
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Wrong. I never said that HCQ was proven ineffective. In fact I have always held out hope that it might be effective
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
Along those lines, I linked to another less expensive therapy called MATH+ . That one isn’t getting much notice either. Why? Likely because Big Pharma won’t make money on it so it has to be buried.
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This looks suspiciously like a fraudulent conspiracy theory website. They start right out slamming the WHO and all similar organizations (apparently the CDC as well) and offer “reasons” why they are not being listened to. And, this is the biggest red flag, they end their presentation with a solicitation for donations. Donations! I suspect that the various doctors listed in their “working group” have no idea their names are being used in this manner. Where is this “organization” ? Their address is listed as
38 Miller Avenue, #503 Mill Valley, CA 94941

Here is view of that address from the street level:
Does that look like a professional organization?

But wait! It gets even better. The phone number listed is (415) 383-2949. This is also the phone number of another “organization” in Mill Valley California, with a different name and a different address. It is “Recovery Without Walls” located at 3 Madrona Street. And that place looks like this from the street:
Now it might be that the protocol suggested may turn out to be helpful. But be a little cautious about giving too much credibility to every claim made - even if it is by a doctor.
 
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