Evolution-Creation?

[RyanL]

garfield:

excuse me brad but are you disputing the fact that physically we are all made up from the same proteins and nucleic acids as the rest of the living organisms on earth?

have you studied any science at all?

garfield,

you’re being excessively condescending. let me state some of my credentials - i’m a certified nuclear engineer with years of operational plant experience, and a masters in applied nuclear physics. i’m not exactly a science chump. what brad has said is correct - science has not proven that we are all RELATED, merely that we all share some of the things common to all life (your proteins and nucleic acids). related means that we share a common ancestor, and that remains a theory. it’s a fairly good theory (as acknowledged by jpii before the pontifical academy of science), but it’s still a theory. it is not yet proven fact - don’t treat it like it is. you might want to check out a book called “icons of evolution” - it might help you see that there are elements of evolution that haven’t **yet **been adequately explained.

RyanL

 

[garfield]

I am not trying to be condescending (sorry), neither do I believe that the theory of evolution explains everything. I am just a bit confused as to why believing that God created the world and everything in it should mean denying that we may have common ancestry with other living things.
A lot of our DNA is very similar to that of the great apes who also share some of our physical characteristics. Is it not possible that a common ancestor was involved in our creation, God made us much more than animals, but could they not have been part of the ‘clay’ from which we were formed?

 

[buffalo]

garfield:

I am not trying to be condescending (sorry), neither do I believe that the theory of evolution explains everything. I am just a bit confused as to why believing that God created the world and everything in it should mean denying that we may have common ancestry with other living things.
A lot of our DNA is very similar to that of the great apes who also share some of our physical characteristics. Is it not possible that a common ancestor was involved in our creation, God made us much more than animals, but could they not have been part of the ‘clay’ from which we were formed?

Try looking at it this way.

Should we be surprised that God has built upon the basic elements of His creation? Should we be surprised living things share the fact they are made up of the chemical H2O? If DNA is a component of living things it only makes sense we should find it in different combinations in other life? Does that automatically mean we have a common descendant? I don’t think it does.

 

[RyanL]

garfield:

I am not trying to be condescending (sorry)

no sweat. perhaps i was a bit oversensitive.

garfield:

I am just a bit confused as to why believing that God created the world and everything in it should mean denying that we may have common ancestry with other living things.

believing one does not preclude the other. again, these answers are answers to different questions. the bible is NOT a text on natural history or creative/evolutionary biology! it is the revelation of God to humanity - it answers the “who” and the “why”, not the “what/when/where/how” - it is with that understanding that we say a simplified framework was constructed to help guide us, but Genesis does not explain everything fully. to do so would require any number of the voluminous works the “I.D.” folks have produced. as for us, the vatican has made statements that believing in evolution is NOT contradictory to our faith. that said, there are parts of the creation story that we are REQUIRED to believe as catholics.
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0401bt.asp
catholic.com/library/adam_eve_and_evolution.asp

garfield:

A lot of our DNA is very similar to that of the great apes who also share some of our physical characteristics. Is it not possible that a common ancestor was involved in our creation, God made us much more than animals, but could they not have been part of the ‘clay’ from which we were formed?

again, please read the links.

RyanL

 

[Brad]

garfield:

I am not trying to be condescending (sorry), neither do I believe that the theory of evolution explains everything. I am just a bit confused as to why believing that God created the world and everything in it should mean denying that we may have common ancestry with other living things.
A lot of our DNA is very similar to that of the great apes who also share some of our physical characteristics. Is it not possible that a common ancestor was involved in our creation, God made us much more than animals, but could they not have been part of the ‘clay’ from which we were formed?

I am not denying that we MAY share a common ancestor with other living things. I am denying that DNA commonness proves this fact. I also believe that God’s word strongly hints otherwise.

The issue at hand is that foundational evolutionary theory components are taught as fact in most schools and they simply are not facts. The question then becomes why are they still being taught as fact? The answer to this question is not a condemnation of the question.

 

[ames61]

Brad:

The issue at hand is that foundational evolutionary theory components are taught as fact in most schools and they simply are not facts. The question then becomes why are they still being taught as fact? The answer to this question is not a condemnation of the question.

I grew up Methodist attending public schools and an excellent Liberal Arts college. I understood from my instruction that evolution was FACT. Creationists seemed to be somewhat deluded, and I was never given any information to indicate that questioning evoluction would be rational.

After I came into the Church, I never questioned my belief in evolution, other than for man himself. Basically I concocted my own special creation account for man, in the midst of the evolutionary cocktail.

This year in RCIA a biology professor coming into the Church challenged my assumptions of creation. He brought up the lack of fossils of transitional forms already mentioned along with quite a few other arguments touched on already. I was stunned. Here was a man of science, with a Phd, who did not accept evolution!

From his instigation I began reading, just some things checked out of the public library, and frankly I feel so betrayed that my educators never gave any inkling of the degree of speculation and lack of proof of the hypothosis of evolution (my friend states that evolution doesn’t even qualify as a theory, only a hypothosis, and from what I’ve read, I can’t contradict him).

Now I am not even going to begin to claim to have the background necessary to enter into this debate. I do however want to point out the incredible unassailable bias that exists in public education and in most media today. This in an of itself makes the viewpoint suspect to me. The fact that most evolutionists will not admit that it is only a theory seems to indicate a willful blindness to the alternative. Even the condescending tone of some of the posts here makes me scratch my head.

Like I said, I can’t argue with the specifics of evolution any better than anyone already has, but I wanted to convey my dismay at the onesidedness of the presentation of the theory of evolution in schools, and wonder at what motivates it.

In Christ,
amy

 

[Brad]

ames61:

I grew up Methodist attending public schools and an excellent Liberal Arts college. I understood from my instruction that evolution was FACT. Creationists seemed to be somewhat deluded, and I was never given any information to indicate that questioning evoluction would be rational.

After I came into the Church, I never questioned my belief in evolution, other than for man himself. Basically I concocted my own special creation account for man, in the midst of the evolutionary cocktail.

This year in RCIA a biology professor coming into the Church challenged my assumptions of creation. He brought up the lack of fossils of transitional forms already mentioned along with quite a few other arguments touched on already. I was stunned. Here was a man of science, with a Phd, who did not accept evolution!

From his instigation I began reading, just some things checked out of the public library, and frankly I feel so betrayed that my educators never gave any inkling of the degree of speculation and lack of proof of the hypothosis of evolution (my friend states that evolution doesn’t even qualify as a theory, only a hypothosis, and from what I’ve read, I can’t contradict him).

Now I am not even going to begin to claim to have the background necessary to enter into this debate. I do however want to point out the incredible unassailable bias that exists in public education and in most media today. This in an of itself makes the viewpoint suspect to me. The fact that most evolutionists will not admit that it is only a theory seems to indicate a willful blindness to the alternative. Even the condescending tone of some of the posts here makes me scratch my head.

Like I said, I can’t argue with the specifics of evolution any better than anyone already has, but I wanted to convey my dismay at the onesidedness of the presentation of the theory of evolution in schools, and wonder at what motivates it.

In Christ,
amy

My experience has been fairly similar. You can enter the debate. Simply ask questions, looking for facts to back up this spectacular assertion of evolution, in particular species to species evolution or a natural explanation to the beginning of everything. That is all I have ever done. I keep asking questions but the answers just don’t seem to be there. Shameful that we can teach (or at least imply) a metaphysical philosophy in school that contradicts God’s revelation but we cannot teach God’s revelation.

 

[Joy1982]

Brad:

There is no conflict between science and religion. There is a conflict when people try to use science to trump religion and ordain items as fact that are nothing more than theory.

There is also a conflict when people try to use religion to trump science. A conflict that will have negative effects on Christianity.

I don’t know exactly where I personally stand with evolution, but I see little reason to fear it being taught in schools, even though I think mention of creationism should be interwoven. And I certainly don’t support removing evolution from the curriculum. I think the evidence does point to evolution, and I hate to see the church continue to look like the “suppressors of truth” as they have in the past.

The church persecuted Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, et al for claiming the earth revolved around the sun and not vice versa. Now we know those scientists were right, and discoveries that came afterward have revealed even more evidence of God’s design. I believe God created this earth and all life on it, and therefore the earth and life forms will contain evidence of His design. We don’t need to be afraid of what science tells us, as long as scientists remain objective in their search for the truth like most are today.

As Christians we know God did it, but we don’t know exactly how God did it. If we keep trying to force our incomplete and probably inaccurate human understanding onto the secular world, our credibility will continue to deteriorate to the point where few intelligent people will want to be associated with Christianity. It will give us a stigma which serious scientists will want to avoid at all costs, and they will be less likely to be objective when they do see evidence of intentional creation. People who might otherwise consider becoming a Christian will have a much tougher time getting there, because they will see Christianity on one side - and reasonable, intelligent thought on the other. I think for us to suppress the natural evidence is like covering up God’s handiwork, and will ultimately result in shooting Christianity in the foot.

 

[RyanL]

Joy1982:

There is also a conflict when people try to use religion to trump science.

true. the catholic church, however, knows better than to try this. you will note the remarkably hands-off approach by the church to explain our origins, and the acknowledgement of evolution as a definite possibility of our natural origins (note the distinction - evolution cannot explain our divine origin - i’ll get back to this later).

Joy1982:

I don’t know exactly where I personally stand with evolution, but I see little reason to fear it being taught in schools, even though I think mention of creationism should be interwoven. And I certainly don’t support removing evolution from the curriculum. I think the evidence does point to evolution, and I hate to see the church continue to look like the “suppressors of truth” as they have in the past.

i agree with all of this but the last sentence. the catholic church, under *serious *examination, never looks like the suppressor of truth - it is the light-bringer of Truth!

Joy1982:

The church persecuted Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, et al for claiming the earth revolved around the sun and not vice versa.

please read a little more about these folks and the church. it appears that secular education has misrepresented these things to you. here are some links i would highly recommend reading - they will help to open your eyes:
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911fea4.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9101prof.asp
catholic.com/library/galileo_controversy.asp
these shouldn’t take long to read, and will help balance your knowledge of the subject.

Joy1982:

As Christians we know God did it, but we don’t know exactly how God did it. If we keep trying to force our incomplete and probably inaccurate human understanding onto the secular world, our credibility will continue to deteriorate to the point where few intelligent people will want to be associated with Christianity.

the “we” you’re talking about is not the church. the “we” is mainly fundimentalist protestants and the occasional catholic. the church, as i said before, has declared that evolution is not contrary to any revealed truth - but there are things in genesis that we are REQUIRED to believe (see link in previous post - mostly about divine creation of the human soul).

Joy1982:

People who might otherwise consider becoming a Christian will have a much tougher time getting there, because they will see Christianity on one side - and reasonable, intelligent thought on the other. I think for us to suppress the natural evidence is like covering up God’s handiwork, and will ultimately result in shooting Christianity in the foot.

this is true, and is why i think the church has taken such a hands-off approach.

i hope this helps!

RyanL

 

[buffalo]

Joy1982:

The church persecuted Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, et al for claiming the earth revolved around the sun and not vice versa. Now we know those scientists were right, and discoveries that came afterward have revealed even more evidence of God’s design. I believe God created this earth and all life on it, and therefore the earth and life forms will contain evidence of His design. We don’t need to be afraid of what science tells us, as long as scientists remain objective in their search for the truth like most are today.

You may be surprised to learn this is still being debated. Even though some here will totally discredit Sungenis he has a challenge that is certainly very interesting.

Another Attempt to Prove Heliocentricity and Disprove Geocentricity is Shot Down ~ Sungenis

 

[Brad]

Joy1982:

The church persecuted Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, et al for claiming the earth revolved around the sun and not vice versa. Now we know those scientists were right, and discoveries that came afterward have revealed even more evidence of God’s design. I believe God created this earth and all life on it, and therefore the earth and life forms will contain evidence of His design. We don’t need to be afraid of what science tells us, as long as scientists remain objective in their search for the truth like most are today.

The real scoop on the Church and Galileo etc:

catholic.com/library/galileo_controversy.asp

The Church defends matters of faith, not matter of science. Science does not trump matters of faith. Science is not more truthful than matters of faith. In fact, most of science we just don’t know. We can only define it.

 

[Corona1500]

It it very interesting in reading the statements in regards to God’s creation of the earth, etc. These statements are based on the Bible, supposedly was sent down from God. That is a very interesting myth. I am very sad that the people that believe in the bible have not taken any time to question their faith, nor examine any other religions either past or present, with which the Catholic church believes the other religions are based on myths, or incorrect facts. The bible is a works of some very wonderful, colourful stories (myths), just like Greek mythology. When are people going to realize this, and quit being so like children? The Catholic church would lose all of their power and money if the bible was exposed as a grouping of myths. There was no world flood, the earth, etc. was not created in a week. Were these stories sent down from God? Was it a fax machine that sent them down to all the people? Or was it one or a small group of people who put the stories together in order to scare and control the people? Just like telling a child that if they do not go to sleep on time, then the monster in the closet will come out, there is no difference. When are people going to look at the church for what it is, a way a small corrupt group of people can control the masses of the people.
I am not saying that there is not a god, as I believe that there is a god, if not maybe multiple. We will never know until death. However, how silly it is that people still believe that the world and everything was made in one week. Why one week, why not less time? Is your god not that powerful that it took that much time? Seems a little bit of a long time, for someone who created everything in the Universe. By the way, how long did it take god to create the rest of it??
If there is other life out on another planet, did god create that as well?? I assume so, but they would therefore have the same bible and the same story, and know of your myths. Please question your faith and realize that the Catholic church and all other organized religions on the planet are corrupt and are only (name removed by moderator)lace to control the minds of the people. Have you wondered why during mass, you always repeat the same statements during prayer? Have you ever looked into the workings of brain washing? They are one in the same. Please, please, please realize that god is all around use and not is certain buildings that you have to pray in that the church (any religion) owns. Forgo your religions and live a good life and get away from the corruption that is only draining the good on this planet.

 

[buffalo]

Corona1500:

It it very interesting in reading the statements in regards to God’s creation of the earth, etc. These statements are based on the Bible, supposedly was sent down from God. That is a very interesting myth. I am very sad that the people that believe in the bible have not taken any time to question their faith, nor examine any other religions either past or present, with which the Catholic church believes the other religions are based on myths, or incorrect facts. The bible is a works of some very wonderful, colourful stories (myths), just like Greek mythology. When are people going to realize this, and quit being so like children? The Catholic church would lose all of their power and money if the bible was exposed as a grouping of myths. There was no world flood, the earth, etc. was not created in a week. Were these stories sent down from God? Was it a fax machine that sent them down to all the people? Or was it one or a small group of people who put the stories together in order to scare and control the people? Just like telling a child that if they do not go to sleep on time, then the monster in the closet will come out, there is no difference. When are people going to look at the church for what it is, a way a small corrupt group of people can control the masses of the people.
I am not saying that there is not a god, as I believe that there is a god, if not maybe multiple. We will never know until death. However, how silly it is that people still believe that the world and everything was made in one week. Why one week, why not less time? Is your god not that powerful that it took that much time? Seems a little bit of a long time, for someone who created everything in the Universe. By the way, how long did it take god to create the rest of it??
If there is other life out on another planet, did god create that as well?? I assume so, but they would therefore have the same bible and the same story, and know of your myths. Please question your faith and realize that the Catholic church and all other organized religions on the planet are corrupt and are only (name removed by moderator)lace to control the minds of the people. Have you wondered why during mass, you always repeat the same statements during prayer? Have you ever looked into the workings of brain washing? They are one in the same. Please, please, please realize that god is all around use and not is certain buildings that you have to pray in that the church (any religion) owns. Forgo your religions and live a good life and get away from the corruption that is only draining the good on this planet.

We need an ex-atheist to respond to this.

 

[Brad]

Corona1500:

It it very interesting in reading the statements in regards to God’s creation of the earth, etc. These statements are based on the Bible, supposedly was sent down from God. That is a very interesting myth. I am very sad that the people that believe in the bible have not taken any time to question their faith, nor examine any other religions either past or present, with which the Catholic church believes the other religions are based on myths, or incorrect facts. The bible is a works of some very wonderful, colourful stories (myths), just like Greek mythology. When are people going to realize this, and quit being so like children? The Catholic church would lose all of their power and money if the bible was exposed as a grouping of myths. There was no world flood, the earth, etc. was not created in a week. Were these stories sent down from God? Was it a fax machine that sent them down to all the people? Or was it one or a small group of people who put the stories together in order to scare and control the people? Just like telling a child that if they do not go to sleep on time, then the monster in the closet will come out, there is no difference. When are people going to look at the church for what it is, a way a small corrupt group of people can control the masses of the people.
I am not saying that there is not a god, as I believe that there is a god, if not maybe multiple. We will never know until death. However, how silly it is that people still believe that the world and everything was made in one week. Why one week, why not less time? Is your god not that powerful that it took that much time? Seems a little bit of a long time, for someone who created everything in the Universe. By the way, how long did it take god to create the rest of it??
If there is other life out on another planet, did god create that as well?? I assume so, but they would therefore have the same bible and the same story, and know of your myths. Please question your faith and realize that the Catholic church and all other organized religions on the planet are corrupt and are only (name removed by moderator)lace to control the minds of the people. Have you wondered why during mass, you always repeat the same statements during prayer? Have you ever looked into the workings of brain washing? They are one in the same. Please, please, please realize that god is all around use and not is certain buildings that you have to pray in that the church (any religion) owns. Forgo your religions and live a good life and get away from the corruption that is only draining the good on this planet.

If you spent any time reading many of the posts here in all categories, you would see that there are many, many logical arguments that hold up under secular standards and use very good reason. Pretty good for a bunch of soapy brains.

To Buffalo’s point above, I recommend that you have an open mind and read “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. Then come back and we can have a discussion.

 

[Corona1500]

buffalo:

We need an ex-atheist to respond to this.

hey buffalo,
that is a wonderful quote from someone in history, however, still nothing to do with the topic. It is wonderful to continue to quote people or books, but that still does not address the issue.
That religion is nothing but corrupt. The Catholic church wishes to continue to brainwash you, in order for you to continue to believe in them, and continue to send money. It is a religion invented by men and run by men, hence the massive corruption and attempted control of the people’s minds. The Catholic church has destroyed or attempted to destroy anything that opposite to the view of the church. Have you not thought of who wrote the bible (both old and new testament)? It was not from God, they are a collection of stories or myths. If it was written today, it would be all it is, a work of fiction.

 

[buffalo]

Corona1500:

hey buffalo,
that is a wonderful quote from someone in history, however, still nothing to do with the topic. It is wonderful to continue to quote people or books, but that still does not address the issue.
That religion is nothing but corrupt. The Catholic church wishes to continue to brainwash you, in order for you to continue to believe in them, and continue to send money. It is a religion invented by men and run by men, hence the massive corruption and attempted control of the people’s minds. The Catholic church has destroyed or attempted to destroy anything that opposite to the view of the church. Have you not thought of who wrote the bible (both old and new testament)? It was not from God, they are a collection of stories or myths. If it was written today, it would be all it is, a work of fiction.

Corona, your profile lists you as Catholic. Do you know what that means?

Anyway, yes, we all brainwashed. We cannot and will not think for ourselves. Truth cannot be found through our senses and reason.

Now if you are interested in debating with a brainwashed unintelligent Catholic, bring it on. With the help of the other brainwashed on this board I think we can teach you what you need ot know.

By the way who exactly do you think I send money too?

 

[Corona1500]

Brad:

If you spent any time reading many of the posts here in all categories, you would see that there are many, many logical arguments that hold up under secular standards and use very good reason. Pretty good for a bunch of soapy brains.

To Buffalo’s point above, I recommend that you have an open mind and read “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. Then come back and we can have a discussion.

Brad,
That is not a nice response to Buffalo. Are you stating because he maybe does not think exactly like you that he does not have an open mind? It appears that you have a internal feeling of being superior, as you do not feel that you can have a discussion with buffalo until he reads that book. That is too bad that you obviously feel that you are superior to him.
In response to your first paragraph, I never stated that anyone had a soapy brain. Very interesting that you bring up secular standards. Being a religious person, obviously a non-secular individual, what secular standards are you talking about? If there were such standards, are they posted somewhere, so that I can bring myself closer to your standard, maybe then we too could have a discussion.
Once again the hypocracy of a religious person exposes itself. You are everything that is negative in the world. You appear to believe that you are above others in all aspects. However, your religion would not really condone this thought process. It is amazing the amount of religious people who believe that they are above others, for no reason. That in itself is against the teachings of Christ. Well, well, well, it appears that maybe you should read that book of myths (the bible) a little bit closer and follow the teachings in it.

 

[buffalo]

Corona1500:

Brad,
That is not a nice response to Buffalo. Are you stating because he maybe does not think exactly like you that he does not have an open mind? It appears that you have a internal feeling of being superior, as you do not feel that you can have a discussion with buffalo until he reads that book. That is too bad that you obviously feel that you are superior to him.
In response to your first paragraph, I never stated that anyone had a soapy brain. Very interesting that you bring up secular standards. Being a religious person, obviously a non-secular individual, what secular standards are you talking about? If there were such standards, are they posted somewhere, so that I can bring myself closer to your standard, maybe then we too could have a discussion.
Once again the hypocracy of a religious person exposes itself. You are everything that is negative in the world. You appear to believe that you are above others in all aspects. However, your religion would not really condone this thought process. It is amazing the amount of religious people who believe that they are above others, for no reason. That in itself is against the teachings of Christ. Well, well, well, it appears that maybe you should read that book of myths (the bible) a little bit closer and follow the teachings in it.

Brad, did you insult me somewhere?

 

[LtTony]

In my mind, no one has (adequately) addressed this from about mid-thread:
“There was no death, no animals eating each other before the fall, such a small leap of faith for people to believe this but very difficult for some’” CreosMary

I think the implication is Genesis states there was NO death or bloodshed of animals before Adam was created. In fact, there was no death or bloodshed of man or animals until after Adam sinned.

1. “And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.” (Genesis 1:29,30).

What say you?

ps — or how about the assertions that there are two contradictory creation stories in Genesis?? Nobody responded to that. Please do. You all sound qualified to a numbskull like me.

Jim

 

[Brad]

Corona1500:

Brad,
That is not a nice response to Buffalo. Are you stating because he maybe does not think exactly like you that he does not have an open mind? It appears that you have a internal feeling of being superior, as you do not feel that you can have a discussion with buffalo until he reads that book. That is too bad that you obviously feel that you are superior to him.
In response to your first paragraph, I never stated that anyone had a soapy brain. Very interesting that you bring up secular standards. Being a religious person, obviously a non-secular individual, what secular standards are you talking about? If there were such standards, are they posted somewhere, so that I can bring myself closer to your standard, maybe then we too could have a discussion.
Once again the hypocracy of a religious person exposes itself. You are everything that is negative in the world. You appear to believe that you are above others in all aspects. However, your religion would not really condone this thought process. It is amazing the amount of religious people who believe that they are above others, for no reason. That in itself is against the teachings of Christ. Well, well, well, it appears that maybe you should read that book of myths (the bible) a little bit closer and follow the teachings in it.

Dear Mr. Condemnation,

The recommendation to read “The Case for Christ” was for you, not for Buffalo. Although, after this post, you might better start with the Dear Abbey columns. Anyway, it’s your call - I don’t want to sound superior, just passing out suggestions. Calling the Bible “a book of myths” sounds just a tad self-serving to yourself don’t you think?