Ex-defence minister Liam Fox: We must arm the Ukrainians as the credibility of the entire Nato alliance is at stake

[Path_Finder]

Well of course some do, i.e. the MSM gullible public, as there’s been nothing else but anti-Russian news, in the media, for the past 12 months. Fortunately, the MSM do not control the way they used to, in the days before the internet, so there is a lot less see Russia as a threat than there could have been. This is clearly evidenced in the comments sections of the various anti-Russia/Putin articles printed. Most of the public now rate such anti-Russian stories as similar to “the weapons of mass destruction”, or “Iraqi soldiers throw babies from incubators” type news.

Fair play is saying you are the one who insisted there were not Russian Regulars in Ukraine but we know now that their own media report on this:

unian.info/war/1046898-kommersant-article-on-russian-troops-fighting-in-debaltseve-full-text-in-english.html And this article is reported in various venues.

As to weapons of mass destruction:

nytimes.com/2015/02/16/world/cia-is-said-to-have-bought-and-destroyed-iraqi-chemical-weapons.html?&_r=1

Further developments from the original story.

So, your points do not seem solid.

 

[Vouthon]

So you think it is good that even traditionally neutral countries such as Sweden and Finland, the latter of which stayed amicable with both Washington and Moscow during the previous Cold War, are now terrified of Russian revanchism?

ibtimes.com/scared-russia-sweden-finland-make-war-pact-1821906

**Scared By Russia, Sweden And Finland Make War Pact

The defense ministers of Sweden and Finland announced Thursday a new military cooperation agreement that could see the two countries go to war together in the event of an attack. The new relationship comes amid ongoing aggressive behavior from Russia in the region. Neither country is a member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) alliance, whose charter stipulates that an attack on one member is an attack on all, mandating a reaction from every allied nation.
**
The level of the cooperation is still to be finalized, and it may include increased communication and shared military bases.

“This gives us a concrete ability to work together, first and foremost in peacetime but also in times of crisis should we choose to,” said Finland’s defense minister Carl Haglund to the TT news agency.

However, his Swedish counterpart, Peter Hultqvist, said that the cooperation was not a formal alliance.

“By planning for various crisis scenarios, we create preparations to use them in a given situation. Whether or not we end up implementing these proposals is a decision that has to be made at government level in that situation and then confirmed by the parliaments in the two countries,” said Hultqvist to Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter, while adding that the governments would decide which proposals to move forward with in the near future.

Even though Sweden and Finland are both neutral countries, not formally allied with any other, the pair signed a so-called host nation support agreement with NATO in 2014. The agreement means that NATO troops can deploy inside the country.

The decision to cooperate comes after a year of increased Russian aggressiveness in the Baltic region, with Russian warplanes flying very close to European airspace. The Swedish military also suspects that up to four Russian submarines may have been operating off the coast of Stockholm in January.

Those events, along with the war in East Ukraine, have swayed public opinion in Sweden, with most Swedes now in favor of joining NATO. Finland, on the other hand, still opposes membership.

This is good, to make ones neighbours live in fear to such an extent that they abandon their age-old doctrines of neutrality???

You see, the “fear” of Russian intentions has now passed beyond even that of the old Cold War. Why you apparently think this is good bewilders me.

Why would any country want to be thought badly of by traditionally friendly or neutral neighbours?

 

[pepipop]

Oh Lordie

Actually it is well-known that the comments sections of Western websites are littered with pro-Putin spam from Russian bots and paid internet-watchers hoping to influence public opinion:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War_II#Ideology_and_propaganda

I think you underestimate the importance of “cyber warfare” in the 21st century.

I really hope it is not this tactic of the Kremlin’s information war that is lulling you into a false sense of security vis-a-vis public opinion. The official opinion polls paint a very different image and I can assure you Pepi that your interpretation is the minority view. Heseltine, before delivering a somewhat mild approach to Russia on QuestionTime, first admitted: “I hold an unconventional view of Russia.…”

The conventional view is not a positive view.

hahaha…so that’s another story well propagated and believed by some as well.

OK let’s assume the O Polls are completely accurate, by joe public being polled.

Obviously, as the media is constantly anti-Russian, i.e. Putin’s going to start world war 3; he’s a threat to Europe; a threat to the world, etc…then yes, the OPolls will fully mirror the news that Joe Public is fed. What else can they think when they’re being fed a constant one-sided view of the situ. Just as the case for weapons of mass destruction, and Iraqi soldiers throw babies from incubators. Who’s going to like Iraq after reading such a story when polled.

However, there are numerous well respected foreign policy experts from the EU, USA, the UK, e.g. the Guardian piece from yesterday a Ukranian expert that see things as they are, and they do not blame Putin/Russia, nor do they in anyway see him as a threat.

Such experts have nothing to gain from their opinions, some are academics, foreign correspondents that have lived in Ukraine/Russia etc… but needless to say they get very, very limited news coverage at present, as it doesn’t suit the Western media’s current purpose.

 

[Vouthon]

hahaha…so that’s another story well propagated and believed by some as well.

OK let’s assume the O Polls are completely accurate, by joe public being polled.

Obviously, as the media is constantly anti-Russian, i.e. Putin’s going to start world war 3; he’s a threat to Europe; a threat to the world, etc…then yes, the OPolls will fully mirror the news that Joe Public is fed. What else can they think when they’re being fed a constant one-sided view of the situ. Just as the case for weapons of mass destruction, and Iraqi soldiers throw babies from incubators. Who’s going to like Iraq after reading such a story when polled.

However, there are numerous well respected foreign policy experts from the EU, USA, the UK, e.g. the Guardian piece from yesterday a Ukranian expert that see things as they are, and they do not blame Putin/Russia, nor do they in anyway see him as a threat.

Such experts have nothing to gain from their opinions, some are academics, foreign correspondents that have lived in Ukraine/Russia etc… but needless to say they get very, very limited news coverage at present, as it doesn’t suit the Western media’s current purpose.

The Guardian columnist was reviewing a book by Richard Sakwa published last year. Sakwa is known in academia for his pro-Russian sympathies yet if you ask him now, I bet he will have moderated his take in light of recent developments. Since Western press is free we allow columnists to offer competing interpretations even though the actual Guardian editorials present the true narrative. Russian media outlets don’t do this.

The vast majority of ‘experts’ in the West recognise the Putin regime for what it is: an aggressive authoritarian kleptocracy. See Ann Applebaum for example.

The pendulum has really shifted and Russian propaganda is not having the desired effect.

You can still get out of the Matrix of RT and Tass and into the ‘real world’ that you label MSM if you want to Pepi. I’m happy to offer you the red pill if you want it. You only need to ask

 

[pepipop]

Fair play is saying you are the one who insisted there were not Russian Regulars in Ukraine but we know now that their own media report on this:

unian.info/war/1046898-kommersant-article-on-russian-troops-fighting-in-debaltseve-full-text-in-english.html And this article is reported in various venues.

As to weapons of mass destruction:

nytimes.com/2015/02/16/world/cia-is-said-to-have-bought-and-destroyed-iraqi-chemical-weapons.html?&_r=1

Further developments from the original story.

So, your points do not seem solid.

Incorrect, the MSM (or respective governments) were the ones for years that stated there were no WMD. They most probably recognised it was one of their biggest faux pas, as it was a major factor in numerous anti-war protests, over the years, on posters and banners that there had been no WMD.

So possibly to ensure continued support for wars, e.g. Syria December 2013 being a good example, of protesters not wishing it to occur and it didn’t, they’ve changed the story.

Why not state there were WMD for the past 10 years (?), why only release it recently - it doesn’t make much sense. So when were they actually lying - initially by stating there were no WMD, or now that there were WMD?.

Several Ukrainian army commanders and other Ukrainians have stated publicly they are not fighting the Russian army - so are they not telling the truth?

 

[Path_Finder]

Incorrect, the MSM (or respective governments) were the ones for years that stated there were no WMD. They most probably recognised it was one of their biggest faux pas, as it was a major factor in numerous anti-war protests, over the years, on posters and banners that there had been no WMD.

So possibly to ensure continued support for wars, e.g. Syria December 2013 being a good example, of protesters not wishing it to occur and it didn’t, they’ve changed the story.

Why not state there were WMD for the past 10 years (?), why only release it recently - it doesn’t make much sense. So when were they actually lying - initially by stating there were no WMD, or now that there were WMD?.

Several Ukrainian army commanders and other Ukrainians have stated publicly they are not fighting the Russian army - so are they not telling the truth?

Did you even read the story?

The CIA bought the weapons and destroyed them.

If they talked about the weapons, they could drive the price up and jeopardize further purchases.

Also, there’s plenty of other matters per WMDs.

Why did Syria have stockpiles of chemical weapons, these sights had their stocks destroyed only to find there were more that weren’t reported? There’s plenty to suggest Syria may have gotten some of these.

As for Russian soldiers being in Ukraine, it’s all over the news. I saw the President of Ukraine a few days ago hold up the passports of what he alleged prove citizenship. Add to this that lady that was arrested on espionage, looks like we are getting more evidence of Russian soldiers being there.

examiner.com/article/russian-media-admits-that-regular-russian-troops-took-debaltseve

I have not seen any Generals saying they were not fighting Russian regulars.

 

[Path_Finder]

In fact, they can not be sure they got all of the WMDs and ISIS has likely used chemical weapons as well over there.

 

[Darryl1958]

Is your wife one of these racist Russian nationalists that you have informed us of, who glorify in Russian Imperialism and dominance of its neighboring states?

 

[Path_Finder]

Interesting bit about European Prison Populations here:

rferl.org/contentinfographics/inforgraphic-european-prison-populations/26849683.html (inter-active map)

1. Russia 475, 2. Ukraine 324.4 3. Lithuania 323.7, after those 3 nations, quite a drop off to the rest.

Too bad 1 and 2 fight. They actually may have quite a lot in common. #3 is reknown for basketball but has a relatively small population so I’m not sure how helpful that figure is.

 

[Tomdstone]

NI is not under occupation.

I thought that Oliver Cromwell invaded Ireland in 1649 and after occupying the country passed a number of laws against Irish Catholics and confiscated large amounts of their land. As a result of Cromwell’s war against Ireland, 20000 civilians were killed. Although Ireland was granted indendence about 1921, nevertheless, Northern Ireland remains under British occupation.

 

[Tomdstone]

On 24 February 2014, 09:00, live interview on Channel 5 in Kiev, owned by Poroshenko, Oleg Tyagnibok clearly stated, heard live, ‘I will bring my 3000 men to Krimea and put every Russian there to the knife’.

No wonder that people in Crimea and eastern Ukraine want to be separate from Kiev.

 

[Tomdstone]

Crimea was an illegal annexation.

Was the invasion of Ireland by Oliver Cromwell and the subsequent theft of land from Irish Catholics legal? Was there an election in Ireland inviting Oliver Cromwell to invade? Were there huge celebrations and parties when he invaded or was there only weeping at the loss of 20000 innocent Irish lives lost in the war?

 

[Tomdstone]

The west has done its best to antagonise and destabilise Russia and is now reaping what has been sown I am afraid.

There is the telephone conversation of Victoria Nuland with the American ambassador and as well a speech given by a Ukrainian from the east well before Maidan which indicates American involvement.

 

[Tomdstone]

Nobody’s heard of what you are talking about.

That is not true. Some people have heard about it.

 

[Vouthon]

Was the invasion of Ireland by Oliver Cromwell and the subsequent theft of land from Irish Catholics legal? Was there an election in Ireland inviting Oliver Cromwell to invade? Were there huge celebrations and parties when he invaded or was there only weeping at the loss of 20000 innocent Irish lives lost in the war?

No, Cromwell was an authoritarian dictator who saw himself as a Puritan Moses. But he lived in the 17th century so he is relevant…why?

 

[pepipop]

Did you even read the story?

The CIA bought the weapons and destroyed them.

If they talked about the weapons, they could drive the price up and jeopardize further purchases.

Also, there’s plenty of other matters per WMDs.

Why did Syria have stockpiles of chemical weapons, these sights had their stocks destroyed only to find there were more that weren’t reported? There’s plenty to suggest Syria may have gotten some of these.

As for Russian soldiers being in Ukraine, it’s all over the news. I saw the President of Ukraine a few days ago hold up the passports of what he alleged prove citizenship. Add to this that lady that was arrested on espionage, looks like we are getting more evidence of Russian soldiers being there.

examiner.com/article/russian-media-admits-that-regular-russian-troops-took-debaltseve

I have not seen any Generals saying they were not fighting Russian regulars.

The fact is the ‘government’ lied about WMD to the public, or are lying now about WMD - is the point. Why did they let their big ‘secret’ out 10 years later? Why bother ever telling anyone, i.e. the G public they ‘had’ found WMD?

Either way, they told ‘lies’ about the WMD, or kept the news as a ‘wee secret’ from everyone, even though the fact that no WMD were found in Iraq was the raison d’etre, for years, behind massively supported ‘antiwar’ protests.

A New York Times investigation published in October found that the military had recovered thousands of old chemical warheads and shells in Iraq and that Americans and Iraqis had been wounded by them, but the government kept much of this information secret, from the public and troops alike.

thepoliticalinsider.com/bombshell-new-york-times-reports-wmds-found-iraq/

How many times have we been told that there were no weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq? I’m pretty sure I’ve heard it millions of times. I’ve read stories here and there over the last several years about WMDs being found, but of course it never got much news coverage – until now.

The initial interview with the ex-Russian soldiers states they had all resigned before volunteering to fight, hence they were not authorised Russian military.
*
And Michael, and Alex, and Artem, and Dima signed a letter of resignation to the military, before leaving.
Подробнее: kommersant.ru/doc/2671088
*

sputniknews.com/europe/20150129/1017514425.html

Ukraine’s military Chief of Staff Viktor Muzhenko admitted Russian troops have not been taking part in combat operations in the country’s east during news briefing in Kiev, Ukraine Channel 5 television reports.

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

No wonder that people in Crimea and eastern Ukraine want to be separate from Kiev.

Well, let’s be clear about this – Tyahnybok is rather crazy. So is Aleksandr Dugin, promoter of the Eurasianist theory of a new Russian Empire that argues among other things that Ukraine should not be a sovereign nation and Ukrainians should be slaughtered in a “genocide.” (The genocide comment was made recently, within the past six months.) Which one’s ideas are currently promoted by his country’s government? Dugin, who has very close ties to many in the Kremlin.

 

[Tomdstone]

No, Cromwell was an authoritarian dictator who saw himself as a Puritan Moses. But he lived in the 17th century so he is relevant…why?

Because Ireland belongs to the Irish and yet Northern Ireland is occupied by the British.

 

[Vouthon]

Because Ireland belongs to the Irish and yet Northern Ireland is occupied by the British.

Ireland came under English rule as long ago as the 1200s. I believe it was sanctioned by Pope Adrian in a Papal Bull. It was then settled in the 17th century by Plantations in the North but it had been under English sovereignty long before that.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The west conquered and spread “democracy” (installed pro western regimes) in the ME and Africa by force. The west has killed Christians and aided people who killed christians plenty of times including Serbia and the ME (also like your suggestion that the separatists aren’t christian). Just like the idea of an Irish state in NI was called uncatholic by establishment catholics in England which should be looked at as critically as the completely western based Eastern Catholics who have a bias.

What kind of government did you want the west to espouse? Would you reinstate Saddam Hussein if you could? Tell us.

Whether the “separatists” and the Russian soldiers are Christian does not change the fact that the Russians are killing Christian Ukranians.
catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/02/20/ukrainian-bishops-to-tell-pope-francis-the-truth-about-russian-invasion/
Nevertheless, the Catholic archbishop of Ukraine calls it Russian aggression.