Ex-defence minister Liam Fox: We must arm the Ukrainians as the credibility of the entire Nato alliance is at stake

[Ridgerunner]

Bigoted toward the Irish back in the 19th Century, the Brits undoubtedly were. But I think blaming “laissez faire capitalism” is a bit off the mark. Ownership of land in Ireland was closer to feudal inasmuch as English and Anglo/Irish owned virtually all of the land and most of the Irish in the countryside were just tenants, dependent on their potatoes. Ireland was still exporting meat and grain during the famine, but the feudal landowners (who were in any case failing economically) were the ones who benefitted from that.

 

[Ridgerunner]

When even neutral countries like Sweden and Finland are afraid of Russian aggression, it’s more than just annoyance, and it certainly isn’t because Russia is doing anything right. It’s exactly because of Russia’s wrongfully conquering Ukraine that they’re worried and scrambling to do what they can to protect themselves.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Because Ireland belongs to the Irish and yet Northern Ireland is occupied by the British.

Plenty of northern Irish want to be part of, and ruled by, Britain.

 

[Path_Finder]

The fact is the ‘government’ lied about WMD to the public, or are lying now about WMD - is the point. Why did they let their big ‘secret’ out 10 years later? Why bother ever telling anyone, i.e. the G public they ‘had’ found WMD?

Either way, they told ‘lies’ about the WMD, or kept the news as a ‘wee secret’ from everyone, even though the fact that no WMD were found in Iraq was the raison d’etre, for years, behind massively supported ‘antiwar’ protests.

So you just assert I am lying about this. You assert the NY Times published an article with NO updates.

No, it’s not lies and you haven’t proven anything at all.

Again, you are not even stating truths here. You are just stating untruths for the convenience of your argument not for the sake of truth.

A New York Times investigation published in October found that the military had recovered thousands of old chemical warheads and shells in Iraq and that Americans and Iraqis had been wounded by them, but the government kept much of this information secret, from the public and troops alike.

We all know this, that is what we knew 5 months ago. There are further developments, the NY Times would NOT have published the same story.

thepoliticalinsider.com/bombshell-new-york-times-reports-wmds-found-iraq/

How many times have we been told that there were no weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq? I’m pretty sure I’ve heard it millions of times. I’ve read stories here and there over the last several years about WMDs being found, but of course it never got much news coverage – until now.

Yes, RT and Liberal publications have said this.

The initial interview with the ex-Russian soldiers states they had all resigned before volunteering to fight, hence they were not authorised Russian military.
*
And Michael, and Alex, and Artem, and Dima signed a letter of resignation to the military,* before leaving.
Подробнее: kommersant.ru/doc/2671088

sputniknews.com/europe/20150129/1017514425.html

Ukraine’s military Chief of Staff Viktor Muzhenko admitted Russian troops have not been taking part in combat operations in the country’s east during news briefing in Kiev, Ukraine Channel 5 television reports.

Then, simply we have the Russian Press itself reporting Russian Regular Units are involved.

 

[Ridgerunner]

There is the telephone conversation of Victoria Nuland with the American ambassador and as well a speech given by a Ukrainian from the east well before Maidan which indicates American involvement.

Oh yes, the “cookie war”.

 

[Path_Finder]

Is PepiPop stating the NY Times published the same story from last November with NO changes on Weapons of Mass Destruction? This is the truth we are suppose to believe??

 

[Ridgerunner]

Actually it is well-known that the comments sections of Western websites are littered with pro-Putin spam from Russian bots and paid internet-watchers hoping to influence public opinion:

One almost wishes they were doing it for money. At least there is some sense to that. To praise and support an evil regime for nothing is doubly tragic.

 

[Path_Finder]

Garry Kasparov tweets:

It’s another proof Putin’s popularity is mythology. If you & your policies are popular you can have free elections, free media, free people.

twitter.com/Kasparov63?original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rferl.org%2Fcontentlive%2Fliveblog%2F26805126.html&tw_i=563420801786195968&tw_p=tweetembed

 

[pepipop]

I skim read through it. However the fact remains the MSM stated for 10 years there were no WMD. Prior to invading Iraq the UN said there were no WMD, although others said there were WMD and hence the reason to invade.

For a decade following the invasion, Joe Public have been told that there was no WMD, hence the millions of anti-war protesters against subsequent invasions. Whether now they realise there was WMD doesn’t change the facts of what occurred subsequently - i.e. to the public have been told for the past decade there were no WMD, after the invasion had taken place.

No, it’s not lies and you haven’t proven anything at all.

Again, you are not even stating truths here. You are just stating untruths for the convenience of your argument not for the sake of truth.

We all know this, that is what we knew 5 months ago. There are further developments, the NY Times would NOT have published the same story.

thepoliticalinsider.com/bombshell-new-york-times-reports-wmds-found-iraq/

Yes, RT and Liberal publications have said this.

Then, simply we have the Russian Press itself reporting Russian Regular Units are involved.

Go back to the original article printed in Kommersant" Ilya Barabanov, that the other publication posted from it states they were volunteers.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I skim read through it. However the fact remains the MSM stated for 10 years there were no WMD. Prior to invading Iraq the UN said there were no WMD, although others said there were WMD and hence the reason to invade.

For a decade following the invasion, Joe Public have been told that there was no WMD, hence the millions of anti-war protesters against subsequent invasions. Whether now they realise there was WMD doesn’t change the facts of what occurred subsequently - i.e. to the public have been told for the past decade there were no WMD, after the invasion had taken place.

.

I take it you don’t understand American politics very well. Leftist politicians in the U.S. are free to lie because the leftist media will back them up on it. Some of the media is not left wing, of course, but most of it is, and it’s harshly critical of America having any kind of role in the world.

I’m not saying that’s a good thing. It isn’t.

So, when a media like ours is virtually unanimous in calling out Russia for its aggression in Ukraine, it’s attention-getting.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Go back to the original article printed in Kommersant" Ilya Barabanov, that the other publication posted from it states they were volunteers.

They wore that one out in Korea, calling the Chinese army “volunteers”. Nobody believes that.

 

[Path_Finder]

Russian anti-aircraft radar, equipment, arms and then,

Russian Regulars who “volunteer” and go in threes.

 

[Vouthon]

Well, let’s be clear about this – Tyahnybok is rather crazy. So is Aleksandr Dugin, promoter of the Eurasianist theory of a new Russian Empire that argues among other things that Ukraine should not be a sovereign nation and Ukrainians should be slaughtered in a “genocide.” (The genocide comment was made recently, within the past six months.) Which one’s ideas are currently promoted by his country’s government? Dugin, who has very close ties to many in the Kremlin.

Yes I believe he said it last August. It shocks me that the Kremlin is actually propping up a figure who is capable of saying such outrageous and plainly evil things. “Evil” is really the only word I can use for Dugin, even though I’m not one to use it often with relation to politics. Dugin was sent to Crimea to rally the ‘troops’ so to speak. He was effectively allowed to provide the theoretical justification for “New Russia”. Thoroughly disconcerting.

See this:

cnbc.com/id/102441753#.

Just after World War 1, English academic Sir Halford Mackinder wrote: “Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland; Who rules the Heartland commands the World-Island; Who rules the World-Island commands the World.”

Mackinder’s ideas helped inform the German Nazi Party’s Lebensraum policy. And there are still some in Russia who believe him.

Among them is the influential Russian political scientist and founder of the Eurasia group Aleksandr Dugin. He argues that a new “Eurasia” should be established to combat what he calls “Atlanticism” (i.e. US influence). Dugin was one of the first prominent Russian voices to call on Putin to aid pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine. He has lectured across Europe – and in Greece at the University of Piraeus, as part of a course taught by current Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias.

A dangerous, sociopathic man with a crazy worldview. Why is Putin indulging him and moreover giving sanction to his views? Why, more to the point, does he have influence even outside Russia with - of all people - the new Greek far-left Syriza government? Who can honestly believe the insane, mental-asylum-like fumigations that emit from that man’s brain?

Dugin’s ideology is as mad as Himmler’s SS cult and Nazi mysticism. Now we know that Putin is a smart, calculating statist and thug at heart. He obviously cannot buy into all this “Eurasianist” nonsense about “Atlanticist” plots to take over the world, so why is he using Dugin? For what end? Its really disturbing since there does seem to be a lot of naive Russians who believe in Dugin’s ****. Putin appears to desire this to be the case since it bulks up his regime with some kind of phony ideological foundations that he thinks can compete with the allure of liberal democracy.

But in unleashing this mystical Eurasian nationalism - with all this rubbish about “Novorossiya” (New Russia) which comes from Dugin - he is allowing a truly vile ideology to become the de facto guiding policy of modern Russia, at least in public.

“Eurasianism”, a fascist-like ideology with anti-capitalist economics oddly enough, has replace Soviet Communism.

 

[Tbrightson]

A dangerous, sociopathic man with a crazy worldview. Why is Putin indulging him and moreover giving sanction to his views? Why, more to the point, does he have influence even outside Russia with - of all people - the new Greek far-left Syriza government? Who can honestly believe the insane, mental-asylum-like fumigations that emit from that man’s brain?

Dugin’s ideology is as mad as Himmler’s SS cult and Nazi mysticism. Now we know that Putin is a smart, calculating statist and thug at heart. He obviously cannot buy into all this “Eurasianist” nonsense about “Atlanticist” plots to take over the world, so why is he using Dugin? For what end? Its really disturbing since there does seem to be a lot of naive Russians who believe in Dugin’s ****. Putin appears to desire this to be the case since it bulks up his regime with some kind of phony ideological foundations that he thinks can compete with the allure of liberal democracy.

But in unleashing this mystical Eurasian nationalism - with all this rubbish about “Novorossiya” (New Russia) which comes from Dugin - he is allowing a truly vile ideology to become the de facto guiding policy of modern Russia, at least in public.

“Eurasianism”, a fascist-like ideology with anti-capitalist economics oddly enough, has replace Soviet Communism.

My guess is Putler is just using him as a means to an end. Putler is a thug, plain and simple. When Dugin is no longer of any use to Putler he will be disposed like so many others. Same for the lunatics in the DNR. They will be disposed when they are of no longer any use. Useful idiots all of them.

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

Yes I believe he said it last August. It shocks me that the Kremlin is actually propping up a figure who is capable of saying such outrageous and plainly evil things. “Evil” is really the only word I can use for Dugin, even though I’m not one to use it often with relation to politics. Dugin was sent to Crimea to rally the ‘troops’ so to speak. He was effectively allowed to provide the theoretical justification for “New Russia”. Thoroughly disconcerting.

See this:

cnbc.com/id/102441753#.

A dangerous, sociopathic man with a crazy worldview. Why is Putin indulging him and moreover giving sanction to his views? Why, more to the point, does he have influence even outside Russia with - of all people - the new Greek far-left Syriza government? Who can honestly believe the insane, mental-asylum-like fumigations that emit from that man’s brain?

Dugin’s ideology is as mad as Himmler’s SS cult and Nazi mysticism. Now we know that Putin is a smart, calculating statist and thug at heart. He obviously cannot buy into all this “Eurasianist” nonsense about “Atlanticist” plots to take over the world, so why is he using Dugin? For what end? Its really disturbing since there does seem to be a lot of naive Russians who believe in Dugin’s ****. Putin appears to desire this to be the case since it bulks up his regime with some kind of phony ideological foundations that he thinks can compete with the allure of liberal democracy.

But in unleashing this mystical Eurasian nationalism - with all this rubbish about “Novorossiya” (New Russia) which comes from Dugin - he is allowing a truly vile ideology to become the de facto guiding policy of modern Russia, at least in public.

“Eurasianism”, a fascist-like ideology with anti-capitalist economics oddly enough, has replace Soviet Communism.

Have you noticed that once Dugin is mentioned in a thread, the thread basically dies? Even the CAF posters who support Russia’s actions with regard to Ukraine apparently don’t want to support Dugin’s views. But IMO it’s cognitive dissonance to support Russia’s current foreign policy actions without supporting Dugin’s views – because it’s Dugin’s views that are being advanced publicly as the theoretical basis for Russia’s foreign policy.

 

[Vouthon]

Have you noticed that once Dugin is mentioned in a thread, the thread basically dies? Even the CAF posters who support Russia’s actions with regard to Ukraine apparently don’t want to support Dugin’s views. But IMO it’s cognitive dissonance to support Russia’s current foreign policy actions without supporting Dugin’s views – because it’s Dugin’s views that are being advanced publicly as the theoretical basis for Russia’s foreign policy.

Precisely. And yes, I think you have highlighted something very key: I have not seen one of the pro-Putinists on this forum directly reply to any post about Dugin and the influence of his - clearly deranged and evil ideology - on the content and direction of recent Russian foreign policy. He is an apocalyptic thinker, after all, who once said in flowery poetics that Russia was the “last thought of God” which would lead mankind to let go of the “logos” (reason) and embrace “chaos”.

BBC’s John Sweeney presented a panorama special on Putin’s intentions towards Ukraine back in September 2014. If you go 7 minutes and 30 second into the program, Sweeney interviews Dugin, introducing him as “a nationalist who has the Kremlin’s ear”. Its frightening, to say the least. Here’s the youtube link:

youtube.com/watch?v=w53gqHSPXWY

Dugin’s views are overtly evil and indefensible from a rational, informed perspective. Yet his key role in the Crimean annexation and the war in Ukraine is indisputable:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin

Dugin is seen as an author of Putin’s initiative for the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation.[14] He considered the war between Russia and Ukraine to be inevitable and appealed for Putin to start military intervention in eastern Ukraine.[14] Dugin said, “The Russian Renaissance can only stop by Kiev.”[33]** During the 2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine, Dugin was in regular contact pro-Russian separatists insurgents.[34] A Skype video call posted on YouTube showed Dugin providing instructions to separatists of South and Eastern Ukraine as well as advising Ekaterina Gubareva, whose husband Pavel Gubarev declared himself a local governor and after that was arrested by the Security Service of Ukraine.**[26] On 31 March 2014, Oleg Bahtiyarov, a member of the Eurasia Youth Union of Russia founded by Dugin, was arrested.[26] He had trained a group of about 200 people to seize parliament and another government building, according to the Security Service of Ukraine.[26] Dugin also developed links with far-right and far-left political parties in the European Union, including Syriza in Greece, Ataka in Bulgaria, the Freedom Party of Austria, and Front National in France, to influence EU policy on Ukraine and Russia.[35][36]

Dugin stated he was disappointed in Russian President Vladimir Putin, saying that Putin did not aid the pro-Russian insurgents in Ukraine after the Ukrainian Army’s early July 2014 offensive.[34] In August 2014, Dugin called for a “genocide” of Ukrainians.[35]

Halya Coynash of the Kharkiv Human Rights Protection Group said that the influence of Dugin’s “Eurasian ideology” on events in eastern Ukraine and on Russia’s invasion of the Crimea was beyond any doubt.[37] According to Vincent Jauvert, Dugin’s radical ideology today became the basis for the internal and foreign policy of the Russian authorities.[32] So Dugin is worth listening to, in order to understand to which fate the Kremlin is leading its country and the whole of Europe.[32]

What is likewise indisputable is that Putin’s speeches have become “Eurasianist” in tone. ‘Novorossiya,’ the very basis of the new ‘peoples republics’ created by the separatists, comes directly from Dugin’s theories on ethnic Russian empire in Eastern Europe.

Even the Russian Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov - who once had a good working relationship with Hillary Clinton and John Kerry - is now speaking like Dugin:

reuters.com/article/2015/02/23/us-russia-un-idUSKBN0LR1V220150223

Russia’s Lavrov accuses West of trying to dominate world

Compare:

“…When there is only one power which decides who is right and who is wrong, and who should be punished and who not, we have a form of global dictatorship. This is not acceptable. Therefore we should fight against it. If someone deprives us of our freedom, we have to react. And we will react. The American Empire should be destroyed. And at one point it will be. Ideologically, unipolarity is based on modernist and post-modernist values that are openly anti-traditional ones…Spiritually, globalization is the creation of a grand parody, the Kingdom of the Antichrist. And the United States is the centre of its expansion. American values pretend to be universal ones…”

Its uncanny, really.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Because Ireland belongs to the Irish and yet Northern Ireland is occupied by the British.

Taking a step back, the Celts themselves were fierce warriors who invaded and conquered land throughout ancient history.

Aristotle knew that they dwelt “beyond Spain,” that they had captured Rome, and that they set great store by warlike power. References other than geographical are occasionally met with even in early writers. Hellanicus of Lesbos, an historian of the fifth century B.C., describes the Celts as practising justice and righteousness. Ephorus, about 350 B.C., has three lines of verse about the Celts in which they are described as using" the same customs as the Greeks " - whatever that may mean - and being on the friendliest terms with that people, who established guest friend-ships among them. Plato, however, in the “Laws,” classes the Celts among the races who are drunken and combative, and much barbarity is attributed to them on the occasion of their irruption into Greece and the sacking of Delphi in the year 273 B.C. Their attack on Rome and the sacking of that city by them about a century earlier is one of the landmarks of ancient history.

[The Celts] spread their dominion both by conquest and by peaceful infiltration over Mid-Europe, Gaul, Spain, and the British Islands. They did not exterminate the original prehistoric inhabitants of these regions - Palaeolithic and Neolithic races, dolmen-builders and workers in bronze - but they imposed on them their language, their arts, and their traditions, taking, no doubt, a good deal from them in return, especially, as we shall see, in the important matter of religion. Among these races the true Celts formed an aristocratic and ruling caste. In that capacity they stood, alike in Gaul, in Spain, in Britain, and in Ireland, in the forefront of armed opposition to foreign invasion. They bore the worst brunt of war, of confiscations, and of banishment They never lacked valour, but they were not strong enough or united enough to prevail, and they perished in far greater proportion than the earlier populations whom they had themselves subjugated.

Lastly, we should remember that all ancient peoples commonly interbred and that we ALL share many, many common ancestors, as well as cultural traditions. (including human sacrifice by the druids ) Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your viewpoint, there is no pure, innocent race of people anywhere.

sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mlcr/mlcr01.htm

 

[Ridgerunner]

Have you noticed that once Dugin is mentioned in a thread, the thread basically dies? Even the CAF posters who support Russia’s actions with regard to Ukraine apparently don’t want to support Dugin’s views. But IMO it’s cognitive dissonance to support Russia’s current foreign policy actions without supporting Dugin’s views – because it’s Dugin’s views that are being advanced publicly as the theoretical basis for Russia’s foreign policy.

Well, his “Eurasia vs. ‘Atlantis’” views, are on all fours with what the Putin supporters say, in virtually every respect. Whether they also believe in Dugin’s apocalyptic vision is another thing, but perhaps continuing to support Dugin in one way suggests belief in him in other ways.

 

[Vouthon]

Also see this BBC radio program from December 2014, “The Knights of New Russia”:

bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04v59h7

An article was published on it around the same time:

bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-30518054

**The Russians fighting a ‘holy war’ in Ukraine

Since the start of the conflict in eastern Ukraine eight months ago, the Kremlin has denied any direct involvement, including sending Russian troops. But there are Russian fighters on the ground who are proud to announce their presence - and to discuss their ideas of “holy war”.**

Even when the morning sun catches the gold domes of its Orthodox churches, the Ukrainian city of Donetsk, stronghold of the pro-Russian rebels, doesn’t look much like Jerusalem. Trolley-buses trundle through the dirty snow, past belching chimneys and the slag-heaps from the coal-mines on the edge of town.

But through the smoke and grime, Pavel Rasta sees a sacred city - and he’s fighting for it, Kalashnikov in hand, just like the Crusaders fought for the heart of Christendom centuries ago. He may be a financial manager - most recently working in a funeral parlour - who’s never held a gun before in his life, but he sees himself as the modern version of a medieval knight, dedicated to chivalrous ideas of Christian purity and defending the defenceless.

…

"Why do I say Donetsk is Jerusalem? Because what’s happening here is a holy war of the Russian people for its own future, for its own ideals, for its children and its great country that 25 years ago was divided into pieces," Pavel says.

…

They’re a mixed bunch: some are retired professional soldiers hardened by Russia’s wars against the Chechen rebels, some former policemen - and possibly, secret service agents - who later went into business, some youngsters who’ve never even served in the army. And their cultural reference-points are bewilderingly eclectic. The image of Orthodox Crusaders sits uneasily with the emblem of the brigade they serve in - a skull-and-crossbones - and their motto: "The more enemies - the more honour."

Some are clearly driven partly by an existentialist quest to give meaning to their lives - it’s no surprise to find Pavel’s most recent reading is Albert Camus and Jean-Paul Sartre. But what seems to unite most of them is a belief that they’re in Ukraine not to support a rebellion against the legitimate government there, but rather to defend Russia itself against sinister Western forces that want its total destruction.

"The Ukrainian authorities aren’t responsible for starting this war," says a young volunteer from the outskirts of Moscow who wants to be known only by his military nickname Chernomor (Black Sea). “It’s Britain, Europe and the West.” He’s a trained lawyer who served in the Interior Ministry forces, partly in Chechnya, and now he’s left his new wife and baby son to fight, he says, for “freedom”. That means freedom, in the first instance, for the Russian nation. Pavel is more apocalyptic. “Our efforts are saving the Russian state,” he says. “Because if the war for Donetsk is lost, it will immediately cross the border and begin in Russia. Rostov, Moscow, Vladivostok will be in flames.”

To many outsiders this looks like paranoia. But the idea that Russia - and the wider Orthodox, Slav world - are surrounded by steadily encroaching enemies has been a powerful current in Russian thought for at least 200 years.

…

What’s certainly true is that with their ideological zeal, the volunteers are playing their part in prolonging the war - and they believe it will rumble on for a long time. I ask Pavel, over supper, whether his friends don’t think he’s crazy - doesn’t he ever feel like giving up and going home? “I will,” he says with a grim smirk, “but only when the job’s done.” And that, in his fantasy, means fighting all the way to the westernmost boundaries of Ukraine - creating a new Russian empire.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Also see this BBC radio program from December 2014, “The Knights of New Russia”:

bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04v59h7

An article was published on it around the same time:

bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-30518054

As I have stated (correctly) many times before, you gotta believe in something, Holy Russia is just as good as anything else I guess. For every true believer, there are probably 50 opportunistic brutes, but there you go. Every cause is like that. Spot on. Something to help bide the time; make it mean something.