Excommunication looms for American Maryknoll active in 'Womanpriest' rites

[rpp]

Someone clarify for me.

Is the Vatican demanding under threat of possible excommunication and expulsion from his order that he:

A. Renounce his BELIEF that women can be priests.

or

B. Renounce the PRACTICE of disobeying the church and being involved in ordaining women without the church’s permission.

If it’s A, then I support the priest. It’s a freedom of thought issue. If it’s B or something LIKE it, then I support the Vatican. The priest as part of his job should obey his bosses whether he agrees with them or not. If a priest thinks Mass should be celebrated with orange juice, then he can think that all he wants; that doesn’t make it right for him to go against those he promised to obey.

Yes, it is “A”. And it is not a “freedom of though” issue at all. One cannot claim to be Catholic yet spout heretical teachings. If he wants to disagree with the Catholic Church, let him start his own religion. No one can claim to be a good Catholic and support heresy or a heretic.

 

[Sir_Knight]

“serious” is relative. Excommunication is more easily remedied with Confession, probably Absolution reserved to the Bishop.

Dismissal from the clerical state is pretty much always permanent.

But if one were excommunicated, wouldn’t they be already disqualified from being in the clerical state by default?

I guess I’m not understanding this so well.

 

[mary3399]

Theology of the Body helps explain for me why only males can be priests.

I cannot fully explain the theology of the body, but I would recommend everyone read more about John Paul II teaching.

the Bible begins with a marriage in Genesis and ends in Revelations with the marriage of the lamb. We are all called to marriage.

Marriage between a man and a woman is the forshadowing of this great mystery between Christ and His church. Husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. Husbands and wives are male/female (Genesis); Christ and the Church, are male/female. (Ephesians 5)

Even sisters and priests are called to be spouses.; Sisters, as female, are called to be the spouse of Jesus. Priests, as males, are called to be the spouse of the Church. There is a complementary masculine/feminine relationship going on which God created from the beginning of time. God created both male and female and he values each and love both. But this does not mean a relationlship based on domination/submission but truly means a relationship based on love; a love that one would die for the other spouse, in humility, strength and conviction of true love. Remember this love is what Jesus did for His church on the cross, he died to give us eternal life. There is no greater love then this, to die for another.

Priests are the bridegroom of Christ’s church, the church is the bride. You cannot have 2 brides, a women (priest) would be a bride to Christ’s church, another bride. God ordained marriage to be 1 man, 1 woman in the 1 flesh union of marriage. “This is why a man leaves his mother and father, joins with his wife and the two become one flesh”.

Pope John Paul II knew our modern society would face these issues, I beleive everyone should read and study Theology of the Body.

 

[HappyRevert]

When I was growing up if you wanted to be a priest you could not be married…now all of a sudden if a man who was preacher from another religion converts to Catholism and is married with children can become a priest. Please show me how this is different. I have to admit I was on the fence about this issue until I read his letter to the Vatican and I didn’t even think about the married clergy conversion. What he is saying is makes lots of sense and you can’t deny that. He is saying that God is telling him to follow his heart!!! BTW, from what I understand from my cousin, the priest’s niece, he didn’t do the ordination, only said the homiily.

Actually priests have been able to be married in the East always. It is a western discipline of celibacy not world wide so it isn’t the same thing as women’s ordination which as far as I know isn’t allowed anywhere or has been at any time in the Catholic church.

 

[Corki]

But if one were excommunicated, wouldn’t they be already disqualified from being in the clerical state by default?

I guess I’m not understanding this so well.

I guess it depends on the type of excommunication. Dismissal from the clerical state is never automatic. It is a judicial process by the church, usually at the request of the priest, as in priests who want to leave active ministry in order to marry.

Excommunication, these days, is usually, latae sententiae and automatic. No judicial process is required. A separate judicial process for removal from the clerical state would have to be initiated. If the excommunication were ferendae sententiae (declared as the sentence of an ecclesiastical court), it would be reasonable that removal from the clerical state would be declared as well. But since excommunication is supposed to be medicinal, designed to bring the individual back to repentance, I don’t think removal from the clerical state would automatically go hand-in-hand with it.

 

[roedelbronn]

Nice letter by our soon-to-be-former Maryknoll friend. Where are his other 94 theses to nail to the church door? This particular line in the cafeteria is closed, as well it should be.

…

Christ has His reasons, and I trust Him. So does the Holy Father. The Church has spoken, and that’s the end of it.

Well-said. Your opening and closing really say it all…

 

[ritthichai]

Jesus may not have included women among the apostles - but then he didn’t include Poles or Germans, or non-Jews, either…

One day the Church will come to apologise for such attitudes, as it eventually did for its involvement in slavery. The sad thing is that the so-called moral teachings of the church mostly resemble those of the Taliban, and yet it is mostly Americans (presumably) who reiterate them on this website.

 

[johnnydigit]

prayers for our fallen priests of God. may God have mercy on them, especially on the sheep they shepherd. PARENTSWORLD.COM

 

[mlchance]

Jesus may not have included women among the apostles - but then he didn’t include Poles or Germans, or non-Jews, either…

I’m not familiar with the Pole, German, or non-Jew gender. How odd that I’ve lived this long thinking that male and female pretty much exhausted the normative possibilities.

The sad thing is that the so-called moral teachings of the church mostly resemble those of the Taliban…

Only one either deliberately insulting or else wildly ignorant could claim moral equivalency between Church doctrine regarding ordination and the Taliban.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[rpp]

Actually priests have been able to be married in the East always. It is a western discipline of celibacy not world wide so it isn’t the same thing as women’s ordination which as far as I know isn’t allowed anywhere or has been at any time in the Catholic church.

No, marriage and the gender of a priest are completely different. You were correct when you used the word “discipline” to describe priestly celibacy.

However, the all-male priesthood is a doctrine, not a discipline. Several popes have stated this clearly over the centuries. Pope John Paul II stated that the Church “does not have the authority” to grant women the sacrament of Holy Orders. Doctrines cannot change. There never can nor never will be a female Catholic priest.

 

[MALACHYONE]

I will keep him in my prayers.

I worry about what has been happening to our Church over the last several decades. Our numbers world wide are still high, but the numbers leaving the Church in the USA is mind boggling.

I worry that if one cannot protest vigorously, due to their studied thoughts, in words and deeds ----into and to the Church body, then are we just going to lose these souls?

It would be irrational and absurd to think that many who have and had (to them )major issues with our Church are all stupid, don’t know canon laws, etc etc. Many are highly intelligent people who have studied these issues for a lifetime.

One man said, “The Church Has Left ME.”

God Bless, malachy

 

[ritthichai]

I’m not familiar with the Pole, German, or non-Jew gender. How odd that I’ve lived this long thinking that male and female pretty much exhausted the normative possibilities.

Only one either deliberately insulting or else wildly ignorant could claim moral equivalency between Church doctrine regarding ordination and the Taliban.

– Mark L. Chance.

“There are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus” [Galations 3:28]

 

[HappyRevert]

I worry about what has been happening to our Church over the last several decades. Our numbers world wide are still high, but the numbers leaving the Church in the USA is mind boggling.

I worry that if one cannot protest vigorously, due to their studied thoughts, in words and deeds ----into and to the Church body, then are we just going to lose these souls?

It would be irrational and absurd to think that many who have and had (to them )major issues with our Church are all stupid, don’t know canon laws, etc etc. Many are highly intelligent people who have studied these issues for a lifetime.

One man said, “The Church Has Left ME.”

God Bless, malachy

Where do you get the figures for people leaving the church? I’m curious about it because I always wonder how those things are counted. I know with my own family in my generation we have a 67% loss. On the one hand I worry about the losses, but on the other I wonder if it is just that Catholicism is difficult and in this day and age we don’t like things that take effort…

That’s not to say that many people don’t have valid concerns with the church. We have a generation (mine) that was not catechized well (Just after Vatican II) so it may also be misinformation or misunderstanding.

 

[flameburns623]

Someone clarify for me.

Is the Vatican demanding under threat of possible excommunication and expulsion from his order that he:

A. Renounce his BELIEF that women can be priests.

or

B. Renounce the PRACTICE of disobeying the church and being involved in ordaining women without the church’s permission.

If it’s A, then I support the priest. It’s a freedom of thought issue. If it’s B or something LIKE it, then I support the Vatican. The priest as part of his job should obey his bosses whether he agrees with them or not. If a priest thinks Mass should be celebrated with orange juice, then he can think that all he wants; that doesn’t make it right for him to go against those he promised to obey.

My answer would be “C”–the priest must not only renounce the PRACTICE pf disobeying the Church and/or being involved in such ordinations, but he must cease and desist teaching or writing in public which advocates or teaches that such things are OK.

What the priest believes personally, in good conscience, having done everything he can reasonably do to properly form his conscience according to traditional and Magisterial teaching is between that priest and Christ.

Not only that but–he is free to quietly and respectfully make whatever case he thinks he has for the ordination of women both within academic circles and to his superiors. The Church has room for respectful dissent–or there would be no way for the Church to grow in knowledge. There are appropriate ways to disagree with the current Magisterium and to make one’s case for one’s disagreement. Taking the debate into the public forum, however, and demonstrating on behalf of the issue like a pressure group lobbies an elected official, is not the way to do things.

This is not to suggest i favor women’s ordination or think that a good case can be made for such a practice. I do NOT believe it. I am, however, not so completely closed-off on the subject that I do not want the Church to at least listen to the best-case arguments that proponents can make for such a practice.

So the main issue at stake in this particular case are the inappropriate behaviors of this priest and his inappropriate ways of making his views public. As a priest, speaking and acting in his priestly office, he needs to teach and reflect the official teaching of the Church.

If he must dissent in his conscience from that teaching, he is free to do so as I understand it. If however he feels the need to publicly repudiate the teaching of the Church, he should resign as a priest, request laicization, and probably should renounce publicly even his membership in the Catholic Church.

 

[KingAlfred]

Maryknoll has a good heart, but their politics are confused. They think Jesus was a Communist, which of course He wasn’t. Christians don’t need Karl Marx, and in fact, should view him as an unwitting perpetrator of great evil. To begin with, Marx condemned *all religion *as an opiate of the poor, dumb masses. *Marxism is totally incompatible with Christianity. *

 

[mlchance]

“There are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus” [Galations 3:28]

One verse ripped out of context neither justifies dissent from Church doctrine nor excuses your insult. The Church speaks with authority derived from Christ and the Apostles, and one who ignores the Church, ignores Jesus himself. Luke 10:16.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[rpp]

One verse ripped out of context neither justifies dissent from Church doctrine nor excuses your insult. The Church speaks with authority derived from Christ and the Apostles, and one who ignores the Church, ignores Jesus himself. Luke 10:16.

– Mark L. Chance.

Absolutely correct.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

I worry about what has been happening to our Church over the last several decades. Our numbers world wide are still high, but the numbers leaving the Church in the USA is mind boggling.

I worry that if one cannot protest vigorously, due to their studied thoughts, in words and deeds ----into and to the Church body, then are we just going to lose these souls?

It would be irrational and absurd to think that many who have and had (to them )major issues with our Church are all stupid, don’t know canon laws, etc etc. Many are highly intelligent people who have studied these issues for a lifetime.

One man said, “The Church Has Left ME.”

God Bless, malachy

A person can be a highly intelligent and articulate, can have studied Church teachings their whole life and still be wrong. If a person is persuaded by secular concerns or relativistic views and chooses to reject Church doctrine…they commit serious sin. Truth does not change…doctrine is God’s revealed truth.

The teaching on ordination of females is crystal clear…check out Ordinatio Sacradotalis (Pope Paul II)…Apostalic Tradition (Captal T) and the constant teachings of the Ordinary and Universal Magesterium…this is rock solid immutable Church teaching. As the Pope John Paul said in his encyclical, “… Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful… (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4)”

There is nothing unclear in this definitive teaching and anyone who says, teaches or believes otherwise is in error and it is he who has left the Church.

Iowa Mike

 

[rpp]

A person can be a highly intelligent and articulate, can have studied Church teachings their whole life and still be wrong. If a person is persuaded by secular concerns or relativistic views and chooses to reject Church doctrine…they commit serious sin. Truth does not change…doctrine is God’s revealed truth.

The teaching on ordination of females is crystal clear…check out Ordinatio Sacradotalis (Pope Paul II)…Apostalic Tradition (Captal T) and the constant teachings of the Ordinary and Universal Magesterium…this is rock solid immutable Church teaching. As the Pope John Paul said in his encyclical, “… Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful… (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4)”

There is nothing unclear in this definitive teaching and anyone who says, teaches or believes otherwise is in error and it is he who has left the Church.

Iowa Mike

Well said. Is this not how many heresies, especially in the Early Church, began?

 

[flameburns623]

I believe that while people do have an absolute moral obligation to form their consciences rightly–if one were truly convinced in conscience that the Church ought to change it’s policy on the ordination of women, they could hold this as a private opinion or even use appropriate means to express their dissent within the Church, giving their reasons for such, in an effort to persuade the Magisterium to change it’s position. In practice this should come up only very very rarely.

What is inappropriate is to act publicly either in blatant disobedience to the Church’s teaching; OR to militate for a change in the Church’s teaching in a way calculated to embarrass or pressure the Church; OR to teach one’s private opinion as if it were equal to, instead of, or alongside of official Church teaching.

In this case, the priest in question not only behaved in a way that was intended to create public scandal, but he acted well beyond his actual authority. He is not observing any sort of discretion nor so far as I can tell is he really accounting for the Magisterium’s teaching on the subject nor giving valid reasons based upon Sacred Tradition or Scripture that might persuade the Church to change.