Faith alone or not?

[twb1621]

On Catholic Answers Live today, John Martinogni struggled to get the message to some callers that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe we are saved by works. He said that the reason works are important is because NOT doing them could cause us to lose our salvation (ie, through mortal sin). He didn’t phrase it like that, but that’s what he meant.

I see a lot of people explain it like that.

But I am confused. It seems like we go at paints to defend the Catholic position by using James 2, but then at the same time we say we are NOT saved by works.

I’m confused. Then what does it mean to be justified by faith and works, if works don’t save?

The works we speak of are works of love in charity toward others, humbly, not boastfully, in the love of Christ. These works are well explained through examples Christ gave us in Matthew CH25 as copied below. They are not by any means an attempt to “earn” salvation, but rather to live up to our responsibility to the salvation gifted to us through the passion, death and resurrection of Christ.

Matthew CH25; 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

hope this helps…

 

[JonNC]

=bona fides;7036898]
Just as soon as this wild OSAS mutant seed works its way into all the old school Protestant denominations like Episcopals, Anglican, Lutherans etc. they are suddenly going to make the connection that Church going and preaching are utterly obsolete. It will be:

*“Why go to church and listen to a preacher tell us the same old stuff when we are all saved already? Why pay tithes? Why buy all the rapture CDs and books? Why pray? Why marry? Why even resist sins of the flesh since its all Jesus’ responsibility to get us to heaven and I can’t fall from grace no more?” *

The harder Protestantism works to avoid the appearances of works - the quicker it falls victim to its own success. It just cant’ scale.

Hi BF,
I just want to respond to this part of your post, if I may.
If, and its a big IF, perseverence of saints were to work its way into Lutheranism, 3 points:

1. then the Lutheran Confessions would be no more.
2. Lutheranism would no longer be Lutheran.
3. I would no longer connect myself with this perversion of Lutheranism.

I would be Catholic/Orthodox loooooong before I would be Reformed, because I could not ever accept the TULIP.

Jon

 

[yankee_drifter]

Y

BTW - how does a person who can’t speak due to a verbal defect (stroke, birth defect etc.) confess Jesus is Lord gain salvation? Kiss the Lord to acknowledge His Lordship? Are these that can’t speak predestined to hell?

Are you going to remain chauvinistically committed to your literal read or are you at some point going to start being reasonable?

Ironic that Judas betrayed the Lord with a kiss…

BF

Are you for real? God knows the hearts of all men. A disability cannot keep a believer in Jesus Christ from receiving salvation. So if we use your statement above, by the same token, you are admitting that a disabled person who cannot attend church and participate in your rituals is sinning and will not find God’s favor. No it isn’t by our works, but its where we place our faith and in whom.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Matthew CH28; 16 The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted. 18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

Anyone who teaches you that you do not have to observe all His teachings is teaching you falsely according to Christ’s command.

Philippians CH3; 17 Join with others in being imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus conduct themselves according to the model you have in us. (note: Who is “us”? the apostles and subsequently their successors who possess the lineage in teachings).

Hebrews CH5; 9 and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him, 10 declared by God high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Luke CH11; 28 He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

1Peter CH4; 17 For it is time for the judgment to begin with the household of God; if it begins with us, how will it end for those who fail to obey the gospel of God?

Hebrews CH13; 16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have; God is pleased by sacrifices of that kind. 17 Obey your leaders and defer to them (unless they are teaching you distortions to Christ’s true Gospel), for they keep watch over you (note: this doesn’t work well with at all with what you follow or have been led to believe) and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Acts CH5; 32 We are witnesses of these things, as is the holy Spirit that God has given to those who obey him."

Philippians CH2; 12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Acts CH6; 7 The word of God continued to spread, and the number of the disciples in Jerusalem increased greatly; even a large group of priests were becoming obedient to the faith.

1 Peter CH1; 2 …in the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification by the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ: may grace and peace be yours in abundance. …22 Since you have purified yourselves by obedience to the truth for sincere mutual love, love one another intensely from a (pure) heart.

Romans CH6; 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

I could go on but it seems enough to show all His teachings pertain to everyone and no one is exempt from being obedient to any.

You have to ask yourself what is it you must observe, obey, become obedient to, if all you are obligated to do for salvation is have faith… Claiming faith does not fulfill obedience as one can not just obediently claim to have faith and have it by the claim. So it is not faith that is spoken of but all the teachings of Christ as we are instructed to live in humility and charity as Matthew CH28 v20 declares. You can not say certain parts of the Gospel do not pertain to you as they refer to the gentiles because the apostles speak to the faithful in the body of Christ which consists of Jew and Gentile all once baptized are children of God as you are.

Therefore the teachings are for all those who accept Christ, there is no distinction and that is also in scripture. Obviously what the apostles taught and that which has been handed down through the Church Jesus founded is not what you have been taught or what you have adopted. Unless you can prove otherwise. Read the apostolic Fathers who were direct successors and students of the apostles. One thing they attest to are the teachings of Christ in Scripture.

Can you obey all of the 10 Commandments? If you say you can, then you are less than truthful.This is why we are saved by grace.

 

[paul_c]

Can you obey all of the 10 Commandments? If you say you can, then you are less than truthful.This is why we are saved by grace.

Yankee Drifter. We are all called to holiness. There’s a reason that Jesus and the Apostles preached incessently about Christian morality. Jesus told the rich man who asked to Keep the commandments and in virtually every Epistle, there are significant sections describing how to live the Christian life of love.

And yes, we are saved by Grace. Grace is God’s love within us and it is imparted through the sacraments. It allows us to become one with Christ for the purpose of doing God’s will for us. The more you partake of the sacraments, the more grace you have within you. And if you die in the state of grace, you will go to heaven. But if you fall from Grace through sin, you will be condemned. Fortunately, iin God’s mercy, you can regain grace lost through sin through the sacrament of reconciliation. But you need to ask for that grace with a contrite heart, confess your sins to a priest who acts for Jesus in this capacity, and do the penance he defines to make up for your sins.

You see, it is exactly as Jesus describes in Matthew 7:21-23:

21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

Please listen to him. After all, Jesus is our Lord and Savior.

 

[bona_fides_1]

Are you for real? God knows the hearts of all men. A disability cannot keep a believer in Jesus Christ from receiving salvation. So if we use your statement above, by the same token, you are admitting that a disabled person who cannot attend church and participate in your rituals is sinning and will not find God’s favor. No it isn’t by our works, but its where we place our faith and in whom.

Yes, I am for real Yankee. I don’t think you understand critical sarcasm when you see it. My intention was to italicize the ridiculousness of the neo-Christians (not Catholics) who believe that a person is only saved through profession of their own faith and who reject Infant Baptism. This of course is ridiculous since INTELLECT nor the power (gnostic like) of belief has NOT one wit to do with salvation. Thus every mentally impaired or child can be saved by baptism based on the faith handed down to them by their parents as long as they embrace that faith and DO NOT later commit any grave post baptismal sins after attaing the age of reason (such as rejecting the true faith of their fathers - the apostolic Christian faith - Catholicism).

BTW, a faith with no works is DEAD FAITH that benefits no one. Such as person is not a true believers but rather a lip-service Christian in name only who will be vomit out of the mouth of The Lord and rejected. Protestants who are not in a state of invincible ignorance of the necessity to be Catholic are in this category and are in grave danger of condemnation for living and spreading a false faith.

There is nothing wrong with solemn rituals. Your contempt for rituals belies any real knowledge of Jesus himself and the apostles who ALL conformed to rituals - namely the Eucharistic breaking of bead and wine, praying weekly in the Synagogue, baptism, daily worship. And after Christ died the apostles and disciples ALL fasted just as Jesus promised the Pharisees they would. They all came together on The Lord’s Day to conduct the early mass in much the same way we do today (offering prayers, sacrifices, confessing sins, reciting the gospel and teaching, participating in the Eucharistic offering, anointing with oil etc.).

I think you need to get some history lessons on the early church before you start condeming rituals. What we do know is that there was NO ritual of altar calls and NO ritual of Wed. evening bible study and NO rutual of presumption of salvation (judging for God) and NO ritual of self appointing ministers and handing divinity diplomas on the wall with NO apostolic laying on hands to appoint to the office of the priesthood.

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

Well I just checked and it looks like Moondweller’s last post here on CAF was this one on Sept. 5, 2010.

I have never seen MD go absent so long. So, I think he has given up on trying to save Catholics and convert us to his own private religion. My bet is that he has had enough of hearing the true Christian gospel and is no longer able to find any credibility with his own arguments.

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/3686/ripmoondweller.jpg

BF

 

[clmowry]

I think you can only delcare him MIA not KIA.

Chuck

Well I just checked and it looks like Moondweller’s last post here on CAF was this one on Sept. 5, 2010.

I have never seen MD go absent so long. So, I think he has given up on trying to save Catholics and covert us to his own private religion. My bet is that he has had enough of hearing the true Christian gospel and is no longer able to find any credibility with his own arguments.

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/3686/ripmoondweller.jpg

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

I think you can only delcare him MIA not KIA.

Chuck

I’m trying to incite a resurrection from the AWOL…

bf

 

[bona_fides_1]

Revising MD’s tombstone…

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/3686/ripmoondweller.jpg

BF

 

[twb1621]

Can you obey all of the 10 Commandments? If you say you can, then you are less than truthful.This is why we are saved by grace.

Is this opening question perhaps your faith’s catch all reasoning behind selective acceptance of Scripture in the teachings of Christ? Because I have heard it before and it lacks common sense before anything else. It is a ridiculous rebuttal to suggest because we are weak in nature and can not as human beings maintain sinless perfection that such is justification that we are not responsible to struggle to be obedient and we are saved without effort on our part. If your refutation is that we do not need to make a constant effort to obey all of the teachings of Christ, you speak against the testaments of Christ in Scripture itself and there is nothing in Scripture that grants any man the flexibility to be selective in what he chooses to accept or in what he chooses to obey. Unless you can justify such a position from scripture, your position opposes the many, many quoted scriptural proclamations in the previous posts.
The obedience we are instructed to is to live according to His teachings and He teaches us not only by the life He lived but by examples He offered us. Avoidance of sin and works of charity in humility with love for one another in our love of Him are our expression of faith and its completeness, the fulfillment of that faith, which He demands of us. Grace through faith is not a free ticket to sin yet retain salvation regardless of our actions beyond Baptism into Christ. The works of charity in humility Jesus Himself lived by and instructed all to obey are necessary for us to retain that salvation Christ offers us so that all men MAY be saved. These are the expressions of love of each other in love of Christ.
Salvation is through grace in faith, yes, but if you think that is all there is you are sadly misguided. According to the teachings of Christ, it is the expression of faith through works of love in charity, and humility, in the love of Christ that we are to live by. If you do not understand this, it is because you were led to believe that “works“ always refers to works of the law, which it does not. Christ refers us to the works of Charity… Consider the following passage from James;

James CH2; 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus (Notice the level of frustration James experience’s as reflected here), that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Now consider the following examples Christ gives us as works of love and the fact that without them, we can loss the gift of salvation;

Matthew CH25; 31 "When the Son of Man comes…

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

Can you obey all of the 10 Commandments? If you say you can, then you are less than truthful.This is why we are saved by grace.

continued from previous post:

Matthew CH25; 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

*James CH2; 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

Romans CH2; 5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
*　
The works we speak of are works of love in charity toward others, humbly, not boastfully, in the love of Christ. These works are well explained through examples Christ gave us above. They are not by any means an attempt to “earn” salvation, but rather to live up to our responsibility to the salvation gifted to us through the passion, death and resurrection of Christ.

 

[Philthy]

Can you obey all of the 10 Commandments?

I think I can.

If you say you can, then you are less than truthful.

Why? Which one, specifically, do you find IMPOSSIBLE to obey?

This is why we are saved by grace.

So what? Being saved is great, but our final goal is to inherit the kingdom of God (ie to go to Heaven.) Faith alone may get you saved, but unless you die immediately afterwards there is more to the Christian journey than being “saved” (ie born again). Go through all your best “faith alone” verses and see which one of them says that we go to Heaven or inherit the kingdom of God by faith alone: there arent any. But the requirements of obeying the commandments, bearing fruit and loving your God and neighbor in order to inherit the kingdom of God, are plentiful. You can try 1 Cor 6:9, Eph 5:5 and Gal 5:20 for starters…

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

The works we speak of are works of love in charity toward others, humbly, not boastfully, in the love of Christ.

They are the very works spoken of in Ephesians 2:10 - we cannot boast of them because they were prepared in advance by God for us to walk in them.

These works are well explained through examples Christ gave us above.

He calls us to “take up OUR cross daily and FOLLOW him” in love; he also warns us that every branch that fails to bear fruit (the fruit that God has prepared) will be thrown into the fire.

They are not by any means an attempt to “earn” salvation, but rather to live up to our responsibility to the salvation gifted to us through the passion, death and resurrection of Christ.

The gift of being freed from our sins and being adopted as children of God is free - it is by grace. But the battle to inherit the kingdom of God does not end there. We must actually choose to love God and neighbor “daily” as we “follow” Him. God promises to be our strength and that no challenge will be greater than our strength in Him (1 Cor 10:13), but we must take advantage of his grace - daily - so that we can persevere in faith, love and hope. Every Christian knows this to be true even if they choose to publicly disagree with it IMHO.

Blessings!

 

[yankee_drifter]

Is this opening question perhaps your faith’s catch all reasoning behind selective acceptance of Scripture in the teachings of Christ? Because I have heard it before and it lacks common sense before anything else. It is a ridiculous rebuttal to suggest because we are weak in nature and can not as human beings maintain sinless perfection that such is justification that we are not responsible to struggle to be obedient and we are saved without effort on our part. If your refutation is that we do not need to make a constant effort to obey all of the teachings of Christ, you speak against the testaments of Christ in Scripture itself and there is nothing in Scripture that grants any man the flexibility to be selective in what he chooses to accept or in what he chooses to obey. Unless you can justify such a position from scripture, your position opposes the many, many quoted scriptural proclamations in the previous posts.
The obedience we are instructed to is to live according to His teachings and He teaches us not only by the life He lived but by examples He offered us. Avoidance of sin and works of charity in humility with love for one another in our love of Him are our expression of faith and its completeness, the fulfillment of that faith, which He demands of us. Grace through faith is not a free ticket to sin yet retain salvation regardless of our actions beyond Baptism into Christ. The works of charity in humility Jesus Himself lived by and instructed all to obey are necessary for us to retain that salvation Christ offers us so that all men MAY be saved. These are the expressions of love of each other in love of Christ.
Salvation is through grace in faith, yes, but if you think that is all there is you are sadly misguided. According to the teachings of Christ, it is the expression of faith through works of love in charity, and humility, in the love of Christ that we are to live by. If you do not understand this, it is because you were led to believe that “works“ always refers to works of the law, which it does not. Christ refers us to the works of Charity… Consider the following passage from James;

James CH2; 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus (Notice the level of frustration James experience’s as reflected here), that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Now consider the following examples Christ gives us as works of love and the fact that without them, we can loss the gift of salvation;

Matthew CH25; 31 "When the Son of Man comes…

continued next post…

I wasn’t talking about works of love. My question was: can you obey all of the Commandments?

As for James, who was he speaking to? Believers. Not those who do not know Christ. When we become spiritually born-again, which Jesus said we must be, our new faith produces new desires and a new heart. This produces works of love. We do these things because we love God and men. Not in order to merit heaven. That we can never do because our most righteous acts are like filthy rags before God. It is only what Christ did at Calvary, that God approves of and its the righteousness of Christ in us that God sees.

Abraham was declared righteous by God years before he offered up Issac. When he did offer up his son, this was faith in action, not the action that saved him.

Eph. 2:8 is a stumbling block for many.

 

[yankee_drifter]

I think I can.
Why? Which one, specifically, do you find IMPOSSIBLE to obey?

So what? Being saved is great, but our final goal is to inherit the kingdom of God (ie to go to Heaven.) Faith alone may get you saved, but unless you die immediately afterwards there is more to the Christian journey than being “saved” (ie born again). Go through all your best “faith alone” verses and see which one of them says that we go to Heaven or inherit the kingdom of God by faith alone: there arent any. But the requirements of obeying the commandments, bearing fruit and loving your God and neighbor in order to inherit the kingdom of God, are plentiful. You can try 1 Cor 6:9, Eph 5:5 and Gal 5:20 for starters…

Blessings!

Then your pride is showing and you are not being truthful. Jesus said if we so much as look at a woman with impure thoughts, we have committed adultery in our hearts already. You have lied, but maybe you call it a fib or harmless white lie. You have stolen something, but maybe you called it borrowing or believe that taking something as small as a pen without asking or returning it is not really stealing.

The point is we are sinners, we all have fallen short and the wages of sin is death. If we get to heaven its because of the grace of God and what Christ accomplished at Calvary.

 

[bona_fides_1]

Then your pride is showing and you are not being truthful. Jesus said if we so much as look at a woman with impure thoughts, we have committed adultery in our hearts already. You have lied, but maybe you call it a fib or harmless white lie. You have stolen something, but maybe you called it borrowing or believe that taking something as small as a pen without asking or returning it is not really stealing.

The point is we are sinners, we all have fallen short and the wages of sin is death. If we get to heaven its because of the grace of God and what Christ accomplished at Calvary.

Are you saying that God is disingenuous and gave us commandments He knew we could not obey?

I think you are judging both God and man here according to your own standards or according to what others have taught you to believe. When Christ told the woman caught in adultery to “sin no more” do you think that was an idle commandment??? What other things that Christ commanded us would you have us not beleive? Perhaps the commandment to “be holy as your heavenly father is holy”? How about “To love one another as I have loved you”? How about “DO ALL I COMMANDED YOU”?

You are teaching a false theology - a neo-Christianity where one can have their cake and eat it too since “one is saved”. This is just a secularized Christian attitude that will find no place in heaven. This is nothing more than a man-made doctrine that changes the ancient old ditty: “Eat, drink, make merry for tomorrow we die… but we are saved so no matter.”.

HOGWASH…

On the last day Jesus will assemble the wicked on His Left and the righteous on His right according to WHAT THEY DID - NOT how they deluded themselves into believing they were saved by false doctrines and “easy believism.” One DOES what one believes. Works and Faith are two faces of the same spiritual coin. Christs gives us both - but its up to YOU to spend it and give it back to God not to Satan.

BF

 

[yankee_drifter]

Are you saying that God is disingenuous and gave us commandments He knew we could not obey?

I think you are judging both God and man here according to your own standards or according to what others have taught you to believe. When Christ told the woman caught in adultery to “sin no more” do you think that was an idle commandment??? What other things that Christ commanded us would you have us not beleive? Perhaps the commandment to “be holy as your heavenly father is holy”? How about “To love one another as I have loved you”? How about “DO ALL I COMMANDED YOU”?

You are teaching a false theology - a neo-Christianity where one can have their cake and eat it too since “one is saved”. This is just a secularized Christian attitude that will find no place in heaven. This is nothing more than a man-made doctrine that changes the ancient old ditty: “Eat, drink, make merry for tomorrow we die… but we are saved so no matter.”.

HOGWASH…

On the last day Jesus will assemble the wicked on His Left and the righteous on His right according to WHAT THEY DID - NOT how they deluded themselves into believing they were saved by false doctrines and “easy believism.” One DOES what one believes. Works and Faith are two faces of the same spiritual coin. Christs gives us both - but its up to YOU to spend it and give it back to God not to Satan.

BF

No, I am not saying God is disingenuous. You are jumping to conclusions. How about having a real and civil conversation and ask me what I meant? What standard am I using ? God’s Law, the 10 Commandments.

I think its a dishonest person who believes he ceases to sin. We sin daily. Maybe you don’t acknowledge it as sin. But thanks be to God that He is faithful to forgive when we confess them.

I never said eat, drink, and be merry, now did I? You never even asked me what my beliefs are. You just ran ahead and made baseless accusations.

Let me ask you something. Are you holy? Holy in the way God is holy? Do you love others the way God commands? I doubt it. Look at your attitude towards me. And I don’t love you the way I should either.

When God gave us His Commandments, it was to show us how far we have fallen. To show us our sinful nature and how we all stand guilty before God, the righteous Judge. What is the wages of sin? Death! This is why humanity groans. This is what the apostle Paul meant when he said I do the very things I should not do, and the things I should be doing, I don’t do. O wretched man am I! God, being a holy God cannot condone sin of any kind. He cannot look the other way. He absolutely must judge it. This is why He sent the Son to die for the sins of the world. Because you and I cannot atone for sins. In the OT era it was animal sacrifices. But it wasn’t a perfect sacrifice. It was replaced by the once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Now it is by grace that we are saved…not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yes we are commanded to love one another and strive towards holiness, but it will never be perfected this side of heaven because we still have a sin nature and satan is the god of this world. It won’t be till the Resurrection when we shall receive our glorious bodies, that we will have perfection.

Yes, works of love are important, but they do not buy us a ticket to heaven. Jesus alone made that possible and offers it to us. Jesus said the kingdom of God is like little children. We are to come to Him with the faith of a child. What do children know about holiness? They have a simple faith and are very trusting. This is what God wants. A humble heart that admits he isn’t perfect, stumbles and falls all the time and needs God’s grace.

Maybe the difference between you and I is that you do “good works” to lessen your time in a place called purgatory, or to earn merit points with God. But Christians do good deeds because at their spiritual rebirth, God gives them a new heart.

So how about putting aside your pride and admitting to God you are unable to DO ALL THAT HE COMMANDED. God already knows you can’t do it. He sent you the Son. So humble yourself before Him and ask Jesus to take over your life and be your Lord and Savior. It will be the best decision you will ever make.

 

[paul_c]

I wasn’t talking about works of love. My question was: can you obey all of the Commandments?

Is not following the commandments a work of love? Didn’t Jesus sum up the entire Old Testament with the great commandment: Love God and your neighbor as yourself?

As for James, who was he speaking to? Believers. Not those who do not know Christ.

It 's clear that James was speaking to those that thought that Faith without works was sufficient. People who are espousing exactly the same philosophy that you are. And you know what, he called them Ignoramus for their views.

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

When we become spiritually born-again, which Jesus said we must be, our new faith produces new desires and a new heart. This produces works of love. We do these things because we love God and men. Not in order to merit heaven.

This is in fact, a very Catholic viewpoint. We would add, that we become spiritually born again through the grace we recieve in the sacraments. And as you suggest, this compells us to do works of love, not to merit heaven, but because they please the Father.

That we can never do because our most righteous acts are like filthy rags before God. It is only what Christ did at Calvary, that God approves of and its the righteousness of Christ in us that God sees.

This is where some clarification is in order. God appreciates our efforts to love, even if they are not perfect as his works are perfect. He understands our limitations better than we do. But our good deeds have merit. They don’t add or subtract from what Jesus did, they emulate what Jesus did. And that is what we are called to do: to follow Jesus. Those that do will enter heaven. Those that fail to follow Jesus, will be condemned. Don’t you agree?

Abraham was declared righteous by God years before he offered up Issac. When he did offer up his son, this was faith in action, not the action that saved him.

Follow this thought one step further. If Abraham had failed to offer up Isaac, whould he still be called righteous? In fact, wasn’t that his big test. You see, words without action are nothing…

Eph. 2:8 is a stumbling block for many.

Yes, you are absolutely right. Many people read that one line:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
And think that this is the complete Gospel. In fact, there is so much more there. In fact, if they would just bother to read two more lines they would get to Eph2:10:
10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.
Where he completes the thought and recognizes that we must do the works that God has prepared for us.

Yes, Yankee Clipper, By grace you are saved through Faith. But that’s not the end of the story. as Paul says in Romans 2: 5-10:

5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

 

[bona_fides_1]

No, I am not saying God is disingenuous. You are jumping to conclusions. How about having a real and civil conversation and ask me what I meant? What standard am I using ? God’s Law, the 10 Commandments.

But I did ask you what you believed. Didn’t you see the question marks in most of my comments? That is civil.

I think its a dishonest person who believes he ceases to sin. We sin daily. Maybe you don’t acknowledge it as sin. But thanks be to God that He is faithful to forgive when we confess them.

I have not claimed to be sinless. Do you know anyone who has made that claim? A person in a sinless state of grace can not even make that assertion without presuming to be able to judge his own soul and so commits a sin of presumption in so saying. A person can however be sinless and is so in the instant of baptism or apostolic absolution. It is hard to remain free from small (venial) sin for very long though - but these small sins are not deadly if prayed over and repented of. It is the grave sins (murder, adultury, lust, fornication etc.) that are deadly and which must be repented and apostolically absolved.

The Catholic Church is full of sinners as well as those fewer who have overcome sin (it’s saints). Catholics believe that one CAN overcome sin with God’s grace - that’s what we call sanctifying grace. We believe in a life long sanctification process where one is perfected as one learns to obey ALL that Jesus commanded us. It is through active participation (trembling and with fear as God works in us) that we cooperate with God’s grace to overcome sin. If we stay in Christ we CAN overcome sin since it is Christ that works within us. Mary is another example of a created creature who never sinned. The Catholic saints are ALL examples of men and women who overcame sin (usually at great personal cost in suffering and persecution since holiness attracts God’s enemies) and went straight to heaven at their deaths.
*
2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.

John 16:33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

John 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
*

I never said eat, drink, and be merry, now did I? You never even asked me what my beliefs are. You just ran ahead and made baseless accusations.

I never claimed you said this. I compared Protestant theology at large to this attitude. Most Protestants are personally unaware of this ironic underlying theological “attitude” that is wrapped up in thier taught beliefs.

Let me ask you something. Are you holy? Holy in the way God is holy? Do you love others the way God commands? I doubt it. Look at your attitude towards me. And I don’t love you the way I should either.

No one can ever be as holy as God is holy since he is infinite and we are finite. But we can be quite holy in our nature after baptism or after apostolic absolution and when receiving the eucharist worthily (since all venial sins are washed away by Eucharist just like Jesus washed the feet of the apostles before dinner).

When God gave us His Commandments, it was to show us how far we have fallen. To show us our sinful nature and how we all stand guilty before God, the righteous Judge.

This is Protestant theory, speculation and it is unbibilical. God has not told us anywhere in the bible that the commandments were given to show us how far we have fallen. God gave is the Decalogue since it was His will that we should worship Him in holiness on the Sabbath and to teach us about an essential principal necessary to be counted among His people - Charity (Love of God and Love of fellow man). God gave us a prescription on how to Love Himself and fellow man out of moral obligation and duty. It is later in the NT that we get the new Law that envelopes the old by living according to the Beatitudes - a perfection of love. God would not give us something He did not intend for us to keep nor would he “make a lesson” for thousands of years only to frustrate “His People” to show them how sinful they were.

BF