Faith alone? Really?

[PRmerger]

You want to keep putting that word “ALONE” and "ONLY, I keep saying BELIEVING encompasses all the above that is needed for salvation.

If you** believe in** Him, will you not have faith in Him? Will you not Love Him? Will you not follow His commandments? Etc. etc???

Well, then, fpesce, you have just proclaimed the Catholic view of soteriology.

Catholicism is wonderful in that it has no ALONES or ONLYS, save for the fact that we are saved by Christ ALONE through His Body, the Catholic Church ALONE.

 

[PRmerger]

You are mis-quoting me again. Not what I’m proposing at all.

No, not misquoting. I haven’t quoted you at all.

I am only saying that demons being saved is the logical conclusion of your (original) proposition that Belief ALONE is required. You must proclaim that demons are saved if you are to be consistent to your original paradigm.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

You are mis-quoting me again. Not what I’m proposing at all.

The bottom line here and what is being missed are two crucial points. Two things did not happen at Calvary.

One, Christ did not take away mans free will.

Two, Christ did not give man the last word.

I can assure you that Christ will not be obligated in any way based on our interpretations. First Timothy 3:15 clearly says the Church is the pillar of truth.

Read Mathew 25:31-46. Copy and paste it. Let’s discuss it. Read Romans 9. It is very clear that Christ will choose and.Christ will decide.

To suggest in any way that Christ is OBLIGATED to choose person cause they said a sinners prayer takes an audacity that many Protestants are not acknowledging.

 

[stewstew03]

…
Believing means believing with your heart! “Saying” the words “I believe” DOESN’T necessarily mean you believe. We don’t quote enchantment prayers for salvation. That is DEMONIC!
…

Huh? Saying “I believe” doesn’t indicate belief? According to Strong’s Concordance, that same word in the Greek, pisteuō, means “to be persuaded of… to place confidence in, to trust; not mere credence.” John uses the term 99 times in his Gospel.

Why do you think the demons shudder? They have faith alone - without works. The whole point of the passage in this epistle is to demonstrate that it is not “mere belief” that saves. If one has belief alone, but no works, he is no better off than the demons.

.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

It also says every knee will bend and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. Including the damned.

Not all who say Lord Lord will enter…

 

[stewstew03]

…
By way I am NOT PROTESTANT.
…

My apologies - are you Catholic? Orthodox? No need to be ashamed of your beliefs…

.

 

[flipmode]

Hello,

If salvation is attained through faith plus works, which exact works are actually required for salvation? How many works? And what about dying in a state of grace? What does that mean? Does that mean that if I lived my whole life believing and working for Christ, but the last action that I did was a sin, does that mean I’m not going to heaven?

 

[PRmerger]

Hello,

If salvation is attained through faith plus works, which exact works are actually required for salvation? How many works?

The Catholic faith, and the Scriptures, do not tell us “which exact works” and how many are actually required.

You need to discern for yourself what God is asking of you.

Strive to enter.

And what about dying in a state of grace? What does that mean?

It means dying without mortal sin on your soul.

Does that mean that if I lived my whole life believing and working for Christ, but the last action that I did was a sin, does that mean I’m not going to heaven?

Your question is similar to this question: “What if I lived my whole life faithful to my wife, and at the last minute I committed adultery. Does that mean I can’t have my marital rights with her that evening?”

What would you answer to that question?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

First of all to Isaiah45_9 and stewstew03:

This keeps coming up: I would like to put that statement at rest once and for all. I said it before in my earlier posts Demons believe there** is a God**, indeed they know Him well. But they don’t believe in HIM! That is why that statement is so foolish. Please try to keep this post on track. That has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about here.

Believing means believing with your heart! “Saying” the words “I believe” DOESN’T necessarily mean you believe. We don’t quote enchantment prayers for salvation. That is DEMONIC!

Sigh…

That’s what happens when you copy and paste and don’t take the time to explain your position. And please stop saying “we”… We are addressing your posts, not anyone else’s.

The statement is not foolish. More so when you take into consideration what Peter says here:

1 Peter 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
fpesce;10690574:

This statement:

"You mean like the Bible? You know It was written by men right? Inspired by the Holy Spirit but nevertheless written by men. With man made paper, man made binding, man made ink, and so forth… "

Shows your lack of FAITH in GOD that HIS WORD is infallible.

Now, you have to demonstrate how exactly I lack Faith in God and His Word.

When it is the complete opposite. I take God at His Word in its **entirety **and not by picking and choosing. I also don’t attempt to be my own authority over that of others and the Church.

I’m asking you to explain what you mean and you just keep copying and pasting verses. If you are having a hard time explaining then come forward and say so. Attacking others doesn’t really help the conversation.

And still you have not explained what you mean…

In short, when you say believe. What do you mean by it? What do you think it means to believe in Jesus?

 

[Aaron_Creagh]

My apologies - are you Catholic? Orthodox? No need to be ashamed of your beliefs…

.

I see the word “Protestant” thrown around here so much, it reminds of a certain racial epithet.

And when going to the “faith alone” thing. Well…

Matthew 7:14-18

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

[PRmerger]

And when going to the “faith alone” thing. Well…

Matthew 7:14-18

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Catholics give a hearty AMEN! to the above passage!

 

[flipmode]

Quote:
And what about dying in a state of grace? What does that mean?
It means dying without mortal sin on your soul.

So if I die with a mortal sin, that means I’m going to hell, but if it’s a venial, I’m going to purgatory? But it says in James 2:10 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all”. It seems to indicate that even a small sin will make me guilty of the entire law. So any sin will keep me from heaven?

Quote:
Does that mean that if I lived my whole life believing and working for Christ, but the last action that I did was a sin, does that mean I’m not going to heaven?

Your question is similar to this question: “What if I lived my whole life faithful to my wife, and at the last minute I committed adultery. Does that mean I can’t have my marital rights with her that evening?”

What would you answer to that question?

Well their not exactly similar. If I committed adultery, but asked for forgiveness from my wife and she forgave me, then sure, I can have marital rights with her that evening. But if I die committing a sin, then I can’t ask for forgiveness anymore because I’m dead.

 

[PRmerger]

Well their not exactly similar. If I committed adultery, but asked for forgiveness from my wife and she forgave me, then sure, I can have marital rights with her that evening. But if I die committing a sin, then I can’t ask for forgiveness anymore because I’m dead.

So it’s not the part about having committed an egregious breach in your relationship that you have a problem with, then.

It appears that your problem is that you find it difficult to understand how you could commit a sin at the very end of your life but not have a chance to repent of it?

 

[PRmerger]

So if I die with a mortal sin, that means I’m going to hell, but if it’s a venial, I’m going to purgatory?

Yes.

But it says in James 2:10 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all”. It seems to indicate that even a small sin will make me guilty of the entire law. So any sin will keep me from heaven?

Absolutely. That’s why you need purgation after death, unless you are absolutely 100% pure.

Purgatory is like the mud room to be cleaned up before the throne of heaven.

 

[flipmode]

It appears that your problem is that you find it difficult to understand how you could commit a sin at the very end of your life but not have a chance to repent of it?

Absolutely. That’s why you need purgation after death, unless you are absolutely 100% pure. Purgatory is like the mud room to be cleaned up before the throne of heaven.

Well, I understand that’s it’s very easy to sin. There are sins that we aren’t even aware of that we do on a daily basis. It’s already hard to walk a straight line just repenting of the sins that we are aware of. So it seems to stand that almost everyone who believes in Christ and works to maintain their good standing will end up in purgatory. Are there any biblical verses that indicate purgatory exists? And can anyone in their right conscience say “I am pure 100%” so as to skip purgatory and go straight to heaven?

 

[PRmerger]

Well, I understand that’s it’s very easy to sin. There are sins that we aren’t even aware of that we do on a daily basis. It’s already hard to walk a straight line just repenting of the sins that we are aware of. So it seems to stand that almost everyone who believes in Christ and works to maintain their good standing will end up in purgatory.

True.

Are there any biblical verses that indicate purgatory exists?

I will provide them for you in a little bit…

but first I would like you to provide me with the verse that says that we have to prove everything we believe about God and Jesus through the Bible.

And can anyone in their right conscience say “I am pure 100%” so as to skip purgatory and go straight to heaven?

I think that most of us can say that right after we leave the confessional…until we sin again.

 

[flipmode]

but first I would like you to provide me with the verse that says that we have to prove everything we believe about God and Jesus through the Bible.

“And that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

“To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20).

Using scripture, it says we are thoroughly equipped. If that’s the case, what else do we need then?

I think that most of us can say that right after we leave the confessional…until we sin again.

Hehe. But who knows when any of us will die?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

“And that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

“To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20).

Using scripture, it says we are thoroughly equipped. If that’s the case, what else do we need then?

And we know Scriptures are true and what they are because:

15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

You see how they are both together and not apart?

Now let’s backstep on your 2 Tim 3 quote:

**14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it **

1. What has been learned

and

1. From whom it has been learned

In light of 1 Tim 3:15, the Scriptures (2 Tim 3:16) when learned by the guidance of the Church, accomplishes **everything **necessary for the Christian.

Not by dividing them. Those who insist in dividing and making things to be “alone” when they are not, are being dissenters of the Faith.

 

[Peter_J]

Hi all. As an Eastern Catholic (Melkite, to be specific) I’ve mostly been a silent reader of this thread. Not that I’m assuming that nobody would be interested in hearing an EC perspective, possibly they would. (Of course, I can’t say positively that the Latin Catholics here are presenting the Latin view properly; I’m just taking their word for it that they are (which isn’t always easy for me to do ).)

But anyhow, I decided to chime in because I found this interesting:

You jump to conclusions, plus you try to discredit something by bringing in something totally irrelevant to this discussion. **By way I am NOT PROTESTANT. **Leave that discussion for some other post.

I have found that many, if not most, people believe that every single Christian (not just 95% or 99% of them of whatever) must fall into one of the 3 categories of Orthodox, Catholic, and protestant.

I’m not really sure why that is.

 

[flipmode]

You see how they are both together and not apart?

Yes, I agree scripture and the church are both together. But who is the church? In the old testament, God dwelt in the temple and that’s where people would go. In the new testament, God makes a dwelling in us, as our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. The body of believers is the church. That means we are the church, not a building.

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it

The verse right after says “and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”