Faith alone? Really?

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Yes, I agree scripture and the church are both together. But who is the church? In the old testament, God dwelt in the temple and that’s where people would go. In the new testament, God makes a dwelling in us, as our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. The body of believers is the church. That means we are the church, not a building.
So when Paul says to Timothy in how he needs to behave in the household of God, Paul means in Timothy’s body only? Or is Paul referring to what he says in Ephesians:

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

It has to be one, and the one can’t contradict itself because it is one Faith, not many.

As such, your humble and respectful attempt to unite us all as one and the same Church doesn’t really work because it’s not one. It has to be visible and present for all to see.
The verse right after says “and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”
You already posted this on the post prior to mine. Are we dancing? 😉
 
“And that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

“To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20).

Using scripture, it says we are thoroughly equipped. If that’s the case, what else do we need then?
Well, since St. Paul was talking about the OT Scriptures (the NT had not yet been compiled), are you saying that all you need to be equipped is the OT?
Hehe. But who knows when any of us will die?
'zactly. That’s why no one has assurance of salvation until he sees Him face to face.
 
So when Paul says to Timothy in how he needs to behave in the household of God, Paul means in Timothy’s body only? Or is Paul referring to what he says in Ephesians:
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
It has to be one, and the one can’t contradict itself because it is one Faith, not many.
As such, your humble and respectful attempt to unite us all as one and the same Church doesn’t really work because it’s not one. It has to be visible and present for all to see.
When Paul says to Timothy to behave, it’s towards other believers.

Ephesians 5:23
23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

Now who is the body?

Romans 12:5
So we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1 Corinthians 10:17
Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
 
The body of believers is the church. That means we are the church, not a building.
This is very Catholic of you to say, flipmode.

Now, the body of believers needs someone to function as the authority. That’s why the Church needs bishops and a visible leader, the Pope.

It was these bishops, the successors to the Apostles, who discerned for you the canon of the NT. You simply could not rely on the authority of every single Christian in the 1st century to tell you what is inspired and what is not.

You need the authority of leaders in the Church to do this for you.
 
Are there any biblical verses that indicate purgatory exists?
As promised:

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
 
Well, since St. Paul was talking about the OT Scriptures (the NT had not yet been compiled), are you saying that all you need to be equipped is the OT?
I believe he is talking about the old testament and the letters he was writing to the churches all over, including all the other letters the apostles were writing. Just because the new testament wasn’t officially compiled yet does not take away from their significance as they were written down on parchment and passed from church to church.
'zactly. That’s why no one has assurance of salvation until he sees Him face to face.
So basically we have to live life like we’re always walking on eggshells? That means we would be running to the confession booth every 10 minutes or so. Then what does Paul mean when he says this.

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39).
 
Catholics say: "We need faith and works to be saved.

Protestants say: “We need faith alone” … oh and btw like it says in James “Faith without works is dead”

hahaha, we are teaching the same thing but in a different language.

I was watching Dr Peter Kreeft on youtube and he pointed this out. 👍

So the title of the thread, Faith Alone? Really?

It’s the same thing, as we need faith and works and faith without works is dead, so therefore when it comes to protestants to have an alive faith, they would encompass works.

In orther words, Catholics view a difference between faith and works and thus why we need both and protestants view them linked as works being a part of faith. haha so we are saying the same thing but in a different language.

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Using scripture, it says we are thoroughly equipped. If that’s the case, what else do we need then?
Firstly, it does not say that Scripture Alone makes us thoroughly equipped.

Secondly, are you aware, flipmode, that St. James tells us that what we need to be “perfect and complete” is not Scripture, but rather steadfastness?

”…for you know that testing of your faith produces steadfastness [patience]. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.” James 1:3-4

If we interpret this passage the way you interpret Timothy, we need to be arguing for a Steadfastness Alone paradigm.

I’m pretty sure you aren’t arguing for that, right?
 
I believe he is talking about the old testament and the letters he was writing to the churches all over, including all the other letters the apostles were writing.
Fair enough.

So you are arguing, then, for a Sola Old Testament, plus Pauline epistles paradigm?

Where does that leave the Letter to the Hebrews? As its authorship is unknown, how do we know that it’s inspired? And how do we know that Paul was referring to it as being “Scripture”?

And how do we know that St. Paul was referring to the letters the apostles were writing? What letters did St. Matthias write? Or St. Andrew?
Just because the new testament wasn’t officially compiled yet does not take away from their significance as they were written down on parchment and passed from church to church.
Ok. I don’t think anyone has been arguing that the NT writings are insignificant.

But I must correct you on your statement that they were written down on parchment and passed from church to church. What was passed from church to church was the Oral Tradition of the Apostles. The writings were put to parchment decades later.

Oral Tradition and the Church came first. Then came the writings. Then the canon of the NT, as discerned for you and me by the bishops in the Catholic Church.
So basically we have to live life like we’re always walking on eggshells?
No more than you would be if you were a husband in a covenantal relationship with your wife.
That means we would be running to the confession booth every 10 minutes or so.
Huh? I don’t know anyone who commits mortal sins every 10 minutes or so! :eek:
Then what does Paul mean when he says this.
“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39).
Notice that he doesn’t say, “But this doesn’t mean that I can’t walk away and separate myself from the love of God.”
 
When Paul says to Timothy to behave, it’s towards other believers.

Ephesians 5:23
23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

Now who is the body?

Romans 12:5
So we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1 Corinthians 10:17
Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
I had to look up your forum name because I thought fpesce was posting again but I was sure I didn’t see the hippie emoticon…

Copying and pasting doesn’t really explain anything.

Again, Ephesian 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

If your Faith is different, you are a different body.

Next thing you are going to say is that the gate is wide instead of narrow…

Mt 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. Not many.
 
I had to look up your forum name because I thought fpesce was posting again but I was sure I didn’t see the hippie emoticon…

Copying and pasting doesn’t really explain anything.

Again, Ephesian 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

If your Faith is different, you are a different body.

Next thing you are going to say is that the gate is wide instead of narrow…

Mt 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. Not many.
I believe the Word speaks for itself, so copying and pasting is all you need. Let the Word speak for itself.

And who you calling hippe? Just kidding:shrug:

It’s the words that matter not the “emoticon”.
 
I believe the Word speaks for itself, so copying and pasting is all you need. Let the Word speak for itself.
Really? Doesn’t your church have bible studies?

Do your pastors go to bible college, or can anyone preach there?

If you met a man on a bus who said he was a preacher, would you let him preach at your church based on the fact that he said he was a Christian preacher who preached from the bible?
 
Really? Doesn’t your church have bible studies?

Do your pastors go to bible college, or can anyone preach there?

If you met a man on a bus who said he was a preacher, would you let him preach at your church based on the fact that he said he was a Christian preacher who preached from the bible?
Where did they learn it?
 
Well, since St. Paul was talking about the OT Scriptures (the NT had not yet been compiled), are you saying that all you need to be equipped is the OT?

'zactly. That’s why no one has assurance of salvation until he sees Him face to face.
Not if you BELIEVE in JESUS and the words He spoke. He says if you believe you will be saved. Why is that so hard. If Jesus said it, I BELIEVE IT.
 
Catholics say: "We need faith and works to be saved.

Protestants say: “We need faith alone” … oh and btw like it says in James “Faith without works is dead”

hahaha, we are teaching the same thing but in a different language.

I was watching Dr Peter Kreeft on youtube and he pointed this out. 👍

So the title of the thread, Faith Alone? Really?

It’s the same thing, as we need faith and works and faith without works is dead, so therefore when it comes to protestants to have an alive faith, they would encompass works.

In orther words, Catholics view a difference between faith and works and thus why we need both and protestants view them linked as works being a part of faith. haha so we are saying the same thing but in a different language.

Thank you for reading
Josh
Then what are the “works”?

John 6:28,29 28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Yes, I know, I’m harping on the same thing again. But I think its a very important point.
 
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