Fallacies of sola scriptura

[QuickCat]

Wow, just wow. You have distorted the Bible beyond belief. In Acts 20;24 he simply says: he preaached the Gospel of God’s grace. Nothing more.

As for Galatian’s, Paul’s entire point is that you don’t need to be circumcised to be holy. He is not negating what was taught about the 10 commandments. Read Galatians 5: 6:
6 For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love
And look at his examples later in the chapter:

19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions,
21 occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ (Jesus) have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit.
26 Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.
So clearly he believes that actions matter, its not all about faith.

Quickcat, Why do you say that the Church founded by Jesus in Matthew 16 is different than the Church that Paul calls the body of Christ? Do you not recognize that it was the Church led by St. Peter Paul was persecuting when Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus. And do you not realize that Ananias baptized Paul into the same church. And do you not realize that Barnabas went to find him and and brought him to work for the chruch in Antioch: (Acts 11): .
25 Then he (Barnabas) went to Tarsus to look for Saul,
26 and when he had found him he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a large number of people, and it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.
And do you not realize that it was the church that dispatched Paul on his missions: (Acts 13)
1.Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Symeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who was a close friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
3 Then, completing their fasting and prayer, they laid hands on them and sent them off.

Quick cat, this is the most revealing statement you have made. You are following an Apostle rather than Christ. And Paul most certainly didn’t say he was the pattern for those who follow after him or that you should be his followers. This is what he says in 1corinthians1:
10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.
11 For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries among you.
12 I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Isn’t it very clear that you are doing exactly what Paul said not to do by dividing the church or by Followign Paul instead of Christ. Paul would certainly condemn what you are saying just as readily as he condemned the Corinthians.

1 Cor 11:1 “BE YE FOLLOWERS OF ME, EVEN AS I AM OF CHRIST!”
1 Cor 4:16 “WHEREFORE I BESEECH YOU, BE YE FOLLOWERS OF ME!”
PHIL. 3:17 “BRETHREN, BE FOLLOWERS TOGETHER OF ME, AND MARK THEM WHICH WALK SO AS YE HAVE US FOR AN ENSAMPLE!”
1 Tim 1:16 “NEVERTHELESS, FOR THIS CAUSE I OBTAINED MERCY, THAT IN ME FIRST JESUS CHRIST MIGHT SHOW FORTH ALL LONG SUFFERING, FOR A PATTERN FOR THEM WHO SHOULD HEREAFTER BELIEVE ON HIM TO LIFE EVERLASTING!”

 

[inkaneer]

Paul speaks of “my gospel” 3 times in his epistles. He speaks of the “gospel of the grace of God” in Acts 20:24. He says that he “received it of the Lord Jesus.” He didn’t receive from any man. When He met with the circumcision apostles he says that “they added NOTHING to me, but on the CONTRARY when they saw that the gospel OF the uncircumcision was committed to me as the gospel OF the circumcision was to Peter.” Gal. 2:7,8. The “church” that our Lord Jesus Christ mentions in Mt. 16:18 can not be the Body of Christ. Paul describes the Body of Christ in Ephesians 3 and he calls it a “mystery” NOT REVEALED in other ages. That church of Mt 16:18 is the kingdom church that will be set up when our Lord returns to this earth for His millennial reign with the 12 sitting on those 12 thrones of Mt. 19:28. Your problem is that you confuse the “kingdom” of the gospels with the church that was revealed to Paul. Paul is the only N.T. writer to name the church of this dispensation the Body of Christ. You are following the wrong apostle. Paul says that he is the “pattern” for those who follow after. He says that we are to follow him as he follows Christ. He says “be ye followers of me.”

Obviously you emphasize Paul to the exclusion of the other Apostles. But even Paul admits that before he went on his journey to the Gentiles he went to Jerusalem and laid out what he planned to preach before Peter and John. You will find that in Ga 1:18 and Gal 2:1,2 Peter and John added nothing to what Paul had received for he received the same annointing of the Holy Spirit as the the other Apostles. Does that mean Paul preached something different? No. The Holy Spirit does not talk out of both sides of his mouth. So the Gospel that Paul preached was the same as that preached by the other Apostles.

As for Ephesians 3 and the “mystery” of the Body of Christ even Paul says that mystery was made known to the Apostles [See Eph 3:5]. And what was this mystery that was not known to “…the sons of men in other generations” [Eph 3:4] but was now made “…to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;” [Eph 3:5] The answer is in Ephesians 3:6, “6 that is, how the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.” In the OT Gentiles were not the chosen people. In the NT they were included.

As for the church it is the kingdom right here on earth. There are many places in scripture that place that church here on earth. For example:

Acts 5:11 “And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.”
Acts 8:1 “And Saul was consenting to his death. And on that day a great persecution arose against the church in Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the region of Judea and Sama’ria, except the apostles.”
Acts 8:3 “But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison.”

There are other passages too that refer to the church as being here on earth and noty in the future. And what was the name of this church? Acts 9:31 tells us.

“So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.”

Those words translated into English as “…the church throughout all…” is in the Greek language ecclesia kata holis. You know it as the Catholic Church.

You claim to be following Paul but you are not. You are following yourself. You and you own opinion of scripture think you know better than 2,000 years of christianity. Your vanity goes before your pride and your pride goes before your downfall.

 

[paul_c]

Yes, I AM A BIBLE CHRISTIAN! I don’t deny any of the Bible. All Scripture is profitable…!
But, I do not mix law and grace like some folks do! You are blinded to the FACT that Israel has an EARTHLY hope and calling. Whereas the Body of Christ has a HEAVENLY hope and calling. Our Lord’s earthly ministry was to the Jews! He sent the 12 to the JEWS!. He and they proclaimed the “kingdom at hand!” You and your group confuse this earthly kingdom promised to Israel with the Body of Christ. Israel presently is set aside until the “fullness of the Gentiles be come in” [Romans 11:25]. Gentiles are now blessed through their [Israel’s] fall [Romans 11:11]. You and I are Gentiles, Our apostle is Paul [Romans 11:13] I have read/studied Acts 10 and 15. Cornelius is a picture of Gentiles coming into the Jewish kingdom. The prophets foretold that Israel would be a light to the Gentiles in the coming kingdom. The Jews will evangelize the world in that kingdom. But the Jew will be the “head and not the tail” in that kingdom. I realize that this is difficult to for you to understand. You will recall that Peter described Paul’s writing as "in which there are some things HARD to UNDERSTAND! 2 Peter 3:16. God Bless you my friend! “If our gospel be hidden it is hidden to them that are lost. In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them that believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” 2 Cor. 4:3,4

Quick Cat, can you not see what all the rest of us see? You simply exclude the parts of the Bible that don’t match your preconcieved notions, claiming that those parts are for someone else, not you. But you are decieving no one but yourself.
Notice that when I respond to you, I provide full passages so that you can understand the context of what is said. You on the otherhand must only include partial sentences to prove your points, because when shown in the full context, these quotes actually disprove the points you are making.

For instance, lets look at the passages you quote above in their fullness: Romans 11:
11 Hence I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Of course not! But through their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make them jealous.
12 Now if their transgression is enrichment for the world, and if their diminished number is enrichment for the Gentiles, how much more their full number.
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry
14 in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them.
15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

This is not saying that israel is an earthly kingdom as you claim. Some of Israel will be saved, just as some of the Gentiles wil be saved. Lets look further at Romans 11:
25 I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in,
26 and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob;
27 and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.
29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
30 Just as you once disobeyed God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so they have now disobeyed in order that, by virtue of the mercy shown to you, they too may (now) receive mercy.
32 For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
Here Paul warns you against looking down on the Jews, saying that they too will be saved as part of God’s plan.
to be continued…

 

[paul_c]

Lets look at Acts 15, you claim that Paul is the only apostle to the Gentiles. How do you explain this?
1 Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.”
2 Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question.
3 They were sent on their journey by the church, and passed through Phoenicia and Samaria telling of the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.
4 When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church, as well as by the apostles and the presbyters, and they reported what God had done with them.
5 But some from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic law.”
6 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter.
7 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, "My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us.
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.
10 Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear?
11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they
As you can see, Paul and Barnabas were sent to the leaders of the Church for a ruling on the question of whether Gentile Christians needed to follow the Jewish law. They did not have the authority to make that decision. It was Peter, in fact, who did and you notice that Peter claimed without dispute that he was named by God to be the voice from which the Gentiles heard the word of God. not Paul. Peter.

And as for 2Peter 3: This is the full text of the snippet you quoted:
15 And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,
16 speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.
18 But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity. (Amen.)

Note, Peter takes the position that Paul’s letters are scripture => He could only do that because he had authority over the whole Church and was Paul’s superior in that regard. Also note, that he is warning against People who distort Paul’s message, just as you are doing now. Finally 2Corinthians 4:
1 Therefore, since we have this ministry through the mercy shown us, we are not discouraged.
2 Rather, we have renounced shameful, hidden things; not acting deceitfully or falsifying the word of God, but by the open declaration of the truth we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.
3 And even though our gospel is veiled, it is veiled for those who are perishing,
4 in whose case the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that they may not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
5 For we do not preach ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your slaves for the sake of Jesus.

Paul is renouncing the concept that certain people have special knowledge. (The Gnostics). And he is saying that some people blind themselves of the truth. Are you sure you aren’t the one who is doing that?

 

[QuickCat]

Wow, just wow. You have distorted the Bible beyond belief. In Acts 20;24 he simply says: he preaached the Gospel of God’s grace. Nothing more.

As for Galatian’s, Paul’s entire point is that you don’t need to be circumcised to be holy. He is not negating what was taught about the 10 commandments. Read Galatians 5: 6:
6 For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love
And look at his examples later in the chapter:

19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions,
21 occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ (Jesus) have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit.
26 Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.
So clearly he believes that actions matter, its not all about faith.

Quickcat, Why do you say that the Church founded by Jesus in Matthew 16 is different than the Church that Paul calls the body of Christ? Do you not recognize that it was the Church led by St. Peter Paul was persecuting when Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus. And do you not realize that Ananias baptized Paul into the same church. And do you not realize that Barnabas went to find him and and brought him to work for the chruch in Antioch: (Acts 11): .
25 Then he (Barnabas) went to Tarsus to look for Saul,
26 and when he had found him he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a large number of people, and it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.
And do you not realize that it was the church that dispatched Paul on his missions: (Acts 13)
1.Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Symeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who was a close friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
3 Then, completing their fasting and prayer, they laid hands on them and sent them off.

Quick cat, this is the most revealing statement you have made. You are following an Apostle rather than Christ. And Paul most certainly didn’t say he was the pattern for those who follow after him or that you should be his followers. This is what he says in 1corinthians1:
10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.
11 For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries among you.
12 I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Isn’t it very clear that you are doing exactly what Paul said not to do by dividing the church or by Followign Paul instead of Christ. Paul would certainly condemn what you are saying just as readily as he condemned the Corinthians.

In Acts 20:24 Paul says that “,the ministry that I have RECEIVED of THE LORD JESUS [not of Peter, James, John, etc.], TO TESTIFY THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD.”

Now to Peter and Cornelius - notice what Peter says to Cornelius, “…why have you sent for me?” This, after being given the “Great Commission” of Mt. 28:19,20. Did Peter preach the “gospel of the grace of God” to Cornelius? NO! He said, “He that feareth God and worketh righteousness is accepted…” Acts11:35]. “This was the Word which God sent unto THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL…” [vs 36] Where is the death, burial and resurrection??? Which is the gospel of the grace of God. Also, why didn’t Peter preach the death, burial and resurrection for salvation at Pentecost?

 

[paul_c]

1 Cor 11:1 “BE YE FOLLOWERS OF ME, EVEN AS I AM OF CHRIST!”
1 Cor 4:16 “WHEREFORE I BESEECH YOU, BE YE FOLLOWERS OF ME!”
PHIL. 3:17 “BRETHREN, BE FOLLOWERS TOGETHER OF ME, AND MARK THEM WHICH WALK SO AS YE HAVE US FOR AN ENSAMPLE!”
1 Tim 1:16 “NEVERTHELESS, FOR THIS CAUSE I OBTAINED MERCY, THAT IN ME FIRST JESUS CHRIST MIGHT SHOW FORTH ALL LONG SUFFERING, FOR A PATTERN FOR THEM WHO SHOULD HEREAFTER BELIEVE ON HIM TO LIFE EVERLASTING!”

I love the fact that you bring up 1Cor 4 because this is one of the places that Paul so adamantly denies OSAS, a theology you claim comes from Paul:

1 Thus should one regard us: as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Now it is of course required of stewards that they be found trustworthy.
3 It does not concern me in the least that I be judged by you or any human tribunal; I do not even pass judgment on myself;
4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.
5 Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.
6 I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what is written, so that none of you will be inflated with pride in favor of one person over against another.
7 Who confers distinction upon you? What do you possess that you have not received? But if you have received it, why are you boasting as if you did not receive it?
8 You are already satisfied; you have already grown rich; you have become kings 3 without us! Indeed, I wish that you had become kings, so that we also might become kings with you.
9 For as I see it, God has exhibited us apostles as the last of all, like people sentenced to death, since we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels and human beings alike.
10 We are fools on Christ’s account, but you are wise in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are held in honor, but we in disrepute.
11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are poorly clad and roughly treated, we wander about homeless
12 and we toil, working with our own hands. When ridiculed, we bless; when persecuted, we endure;
13 when slandered, we respond gently. We have become like the world’s rubbish, the scum of all, to this very moment.
14 I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.
15 Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
16 Therefore, I urge you, be imitators of me.

Philipians 3 also denies OSAS:
8 More than that, I even consider everything as a loss because of the supreme good of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have accepted the loss of all things and I consider them so much rubbish, that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in him, not having any righteousness of my own based on the law but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God, depending on faith
10 to know him and the power of his resurrection and (the) sharing of his sufferings by being conformed to his death,
11 if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
12 It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ (Jesus).
13 Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing: forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead,
14 I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God’s upward calling, in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us, then, who are “perfectly mature” adopt this attitude. And if you have a different attitude, this too God will reveal to you.
16 Only, with regard to what we have attained, continue on the same course.
17 11 Join with others in being imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus conduct themselves according to the model you have in us.
18 For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 Their end is destruction. Their God is their stomach; their glory is in their “shame.” Their minds are occupied with earthly things.
20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we also await a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
21 He will change our lowly body to conform with his glorified body by the power that enables him also to bring all things into subjection to himself

Its interesting that you would highlight those passages that completely contradict the OSAS message that you say Paul espoused. Do you actually read the bible or just soemones quotes from the bible.

 

[macaronte]

QuickCat wrote:
“Since you have avoided answering the simple question ‘shouldn’t we believe everything the Apostles believed’ twice, I gather that you don’t believe we, as Christians, should or need to believe everything the Apostles believed, is that correct?”​

---

The key word is EVERYTHING.

My answer would be: “I’m not bound to believe everything”,
I’m only bound to believe those things related to Faith & Morals that they “under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and in collegiality” agreed upon.

Then, YES.
Of course.!
Ever since they were commissioned by the Lord to teach.
They carried with them the authority and power of Jesus.
For that would be the teaching of the
One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church.

I, for one, believe in the symbol of our Christian faith
represented in the teachings of the apostles in the creed.
I set my trust on the teachings of the Magisterium.
The [Magisterium] was commissioned by the Church, which is under the authority of Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit, to correctly interpret holy writ.

1-The Apostles Creed is a summary of apostolic teachings.
2-The Creed is believed to be an accurate summary of what the apostles taught.
3-The Creed anchored Christian faith to a tradition.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                     -The Apostles Creed-

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth;

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pax et bonum
–macaronte

 

[paul_c]

In Acts 20:24 Paul says that “,the ministry that I have RECEIVED of THE LORD JESUS [not of Peter, James, John, etc.], TO TESTIFY THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD.”

Paul had a special calling on the Road to Damascus but he operated within the Church, as I have shown, not external to it.

Now to Peter and Cornelius - notice what Peter says to Cornelius, “…why have you sent for me?” This, after being given the “Great Commission” of Mt. 28:19,20.

Why is it a problem for Peter to ask why Cornelius sent for him. Wouldn’t that be a natural question to ask? You are grasping at straws here.

Did Peter preach the “gospel of the grace of God” to Cornelius? NO! He said, “He that feareth God and worketh righteousness is accepted…” Acts11:35]. “This was the Word which God sent unto THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL…” [vs 36] Where is the death, burial and resurrection???

Did you even read this. this is what Peter said to Cornelius in Acts 10:
34 Then Peter proceeded to speak and said, “In truth, I see that God shows no partiality.
35 Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him.
36 You know the word (that) he sent to the Israelites as he proclaimed peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all,
37 what has happened all over Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached,
38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all those oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
39 We are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and (in) Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree.
40 This man God raised (on) the third day and granted that he be visible,
41 not to all the people, but to us, the witnesses chosen by God in advance, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commissioned us to preach to the people and testify that he is the one appointed by God as judge of the living and the dead.
43 To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone who believes in him will receive forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Also, why didn’t Peter preach the death, burial and resurrection for salvation at Pentecost?

You are embarassing yourself unnecessarily. Read the Bible before you make statements like this. here is Peter’s discourse on Pentecost from Acts 2:
14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice, and proclaimed to them, “You who are Jews, indeed all of you staying in Jerusalem. Let this be known to you, and listen to my words.
15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o’clock in the morning.
16 No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
17 ‘It will come to pass in the last days,’ God says, ‘that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams.
18 Indeed, upon my servants and my handmaids I will pour out a portion of my spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will work wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below: blood, fire, and a cloud of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and splendid day of the Lord,
21 and it shall be that everyone shall be saved who calls on the name of the Lord.’
22 You who are Israelites, hear these words. Jesus the Nazorean was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know.
23 This man, delivered up by the set plan and foreknowledge of God, you killed, using lawless men to crucify him.
24 But God raised him up, releasing him from the throes of death, because it was impossible for him to be held by it. 25 For David says of him: ‘I saw the Lord ever before me, with him at my right hand I shall not be disturbed.
26 Therefore my heart has been glad and my tongue has exulted; my flesh, too, will dwell in hope,
27 because you will not abandon my soul to the netherworld, nor will you suffer your holy one to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence.’
29 My brothers, one can confidently say to you about the patriarch David that he died and was buried, and his tomb is in our midst to this day.
30 But since he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne,
31 he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he abandoned to the netherworld nor did his flesh see corruption.
32 God raised this Jesus; of this we are all witnesses.
33 Exalted at the right hand of God, he received the promise of the holy Spirit from the Father and poured it forth, as you (both) see and hear.
34 For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies your footstool.”’
36 Therefore let the whole house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, “What are we to do, my brothers?”
38 Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Nice story. The way I heard it was that it was a man who dropped dead while playing golf. Anyway the reason that you never see Catholics at your door is that we don’t believe in a hard sell approach. It was said of the early christians, “See how they love one another.” You see when you have the truth you don’t have to make a big spectacle of it. People will try all of the TV evangelists and all of the other denominations and still have a nagging longing for the truth. They will find that truth only in Catholicism. That is the difference between converts to Catholicism and Catholics who leave for other denominations. Those who convert to Catholicism are seeking and finding truth while those who leave Catholicism are running from it. We are getting the better of the trade. Ever speak to ex Catholic and hear them tear down the Church in very unchristian like terms then speak to a new convert from protestantism and listen to them praise their former denomoination for their contibution to their spiritual life but at the same time acknowledge that it was incomplete and that completeness was only found in the Catholic Church. Which is the christian response?

My story is true! Don’t know what you heard. You make a fatal error by intimating that you must join the church to be saved. It is the other way around. The moment one is saved by believing the gospel of by which you are saved [1 Cor 15:2] is that you are then baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ [1 Cor. 12:13]. And you are sealed by this same Holy Spirit until the day of redemption of your body [Eph. 1:13]. You will note that Paul writes that this happens upon “hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of your salvation.” Further, Paul writes that I am “complete in Him” [the Lord Jesus Christ] [Col. 2:10]. That is perfection that you can’t add to! I’ll take what the Lord Jesus Christ had Paul write for the Body of Christ.

I intimate nothing of the sort. I state it flat out. The fullness of the truth is found in the Catholic Church and in it alone. The big problem you have ias you have no way to deal with sin. We do. We do it the way Jesus said to do it. Jesus said He was sending the Apostles to do what Jesus Himself was sent to do. The whole purpose of the Incarnation was for the forgiveness of sin. Jesus clearly delegated that duty to His Apostles in the gospel of John 20:19-23:

"19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

You can claim you go to Jesus all you want but if you really want to go to Jesus then you take the way Jesus said. You do it His way not your way because He is the way, the truth and the life [John 14:6 ]. You seem to be centered on Paul to the exclusion of the other Apostles. Maybe that’s why Peter’s admonition means nothing to you.

“…So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.” [2 Peter 3:15,16]

 

[inkaneer]

In Acts 20:24 Paul says that “,the ministry that I have RECEIVED of THE LORD JESUS [not of Peter, James, John, etc.], TO TESTIFY THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD.”

Now to Peter and Cornelius - notice what Peter says to Cornelius, “…why have you sent for me?” This, after being given the “Great Commission” of Mt. 28:19,20. Did Peter preach the “gospel of the grace of God” to Cornelius? NO! He said, “He that feareth God and worketh righteousness is accepted…” Acts11:35]. “This was the Word which God sent unto THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL…” [vs 36] Where is the death, burial and resurrection??? Which is the gospel of the grace of God. Also, why didn’t Peter preach the death, burial and resurrection for salvation at Pentecost?

What makes you think Peter didn’t preach the death, burial and resurrection? Are you saying that the Apostles received a different truth from the Holy Spirit than Paul? But you are wrong. Read Acts 10:39-43 to see what really Peter said to Cornelius:

“39 And we are witnesses to all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree; 40 but God raised him on the third day and made him manifest; 41 not to all the people but to us who were chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that he is the one ordained by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Do you see where Peter says, “They put him to death by hanging him on a tree…”? Do you see where Peter says, “…but God raised him on the third day…”? Do you see where peter says, “…he rose from the dead”? As for the grace of God exactly what do you think Peter means when he says, “…every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” Better take your blinders off.

Jesus told the Apostles to remain in Jerusalem and preach to the Jews first then go out to the Gentiles. Peter’s vision as told in Acts 10 was the clue that they were now to go to the Gentiles. Read Acts 10:44-48 then Acts 11:1-2 to see who went to the Gentiles first Peter or Paul?

Chapter 10: 44 While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days."

Chapter 11:1 "Now the apostles and the brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, 3 saying, “Why did you go to uncircumcised men and eat with them?”

 

[Danny_Clover]

Marc Anthony:

Here’s a question for those who believe in sola scriptura: Why do you believe in the Bible?

No, really. Why do you think everything the Bible says is true? You can’t quote a Bible verse because that’s like me saying (for the record, I obviously don’t really believe this, it’s just an example) “I’m never wrong because I say I’m never wrong and that has to be true because I’m never wrong”. See how that’s a logical fallacy?

Yes, I can definitely see how “tell me why you think the Bible is true, but don’t cite the Bible” is a logical fallacy.

The answer: We believe the Bible is true because the Church established by Jesus through its divine authority (thanks to the Holy Spirit) says that the Bible is true.

And how do you know that the church is correct?

Jesus didn’t write a book or establish a book as Holy.

How about the Holy Spirit? Did He inspire men to write the Bible?

The New Testament was written many years after Jesus’s death. What Jesus did was establish a Church and give it the authority to make infallible decisions on faith and morals. The Bible is a book full of truths of our faith. The reason we believe the books are true is because our infallible, divinely guided Church said so.

And how do you know your church is correct?

So when Protestants believe in books of the New Testament, they are unwittingly following Catholic Tradition!

Not as you’ve explained what you believe to be Catholic tradition.

When we say that we believe in the books of the New Testament, we believe them because they are inspired and infallible, not because the church says to. To the contrary, we believe that the church is only correct and authoritative as it proclaims the word of God.

It is always the church that submits to the word of God, not the word of God that submits to the church.

 

[paul_c]

Danny,
The Church submits to the WORD of God, Jesus Christ. But the Bible is a teaching and liturgical tool developed by the Catholic Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Please note that the Bible and Jesus Christ are not synonymns.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:The answer: We believe the Bible is true because the Church established by Jesus through its divine authority (thanks to the Holy Spirit) says that the Bible is true.

And how do you know that the church is correct?

That church determined which books were scripture so if tate Church was wrong then scripture is wrong.

Quote:
Jesus didn’t write a book or establish a book as Holy.

How about the Holy Spirit? Did He inspire men to write the Bible?

The Holy Spirit inspired men to produce writings. But it was the church that determined which writings were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Now do you know why it took 300 years after the last writings were inspired by the Holy Spirit for the Bible as we know it, to come into existence?

Quote:
The New Testament was written many years after Jesus’s death. What Jesus did was establish a Church and give it the authority to make infallible decisions on faith and morals. The Bible is a book full of truths of our faith. The reason we believe the books are true is because our infallible, divinely guided Church said so.

And how do you know your church is correct?

Because Jesus said so,

Quote:
So when Protestants believe in books of the New Testament, they are unwittingly following Catholic Tradition!

Not as you’ve explained what you believe to be Catholic tradition. When we say that we believe in the books of the New Testament, we believe them because they are inspired and infallible, not because the church says to. To the contrary, we believe that the church is only correct and authoritative as it proclaims the word of God. It is always the church that submits to the word of God, not the word of God that submits to the church.

If you don’t believe that your belief in the Bible is because the Church determined which writings were inspired then maybe you can tell us how you can prove that the epistle to Philomen is truly inspired by the Holy Spirit. I would like to hear it.

.

]

 

[QuickCat]

Obviously you emphasize Paul to the exclusion of the other Apostles. But even Paul admits that before he went on his journey to the Gentiles he went to Jerusalem and laid out what he planned to preach before Peter and John. You will find that in Ga 1:18 and Gal 2:1,2 Peter and John added nothing to what Paul had received for he received the same annointing of the Holy Spirit as the the other Apostles. Does that mean Paul preached something different? No. The Holy Spirit does not talk out of both sides of his mouth. So the Gospel that Paul preached was the same as that preached by the other Apostles.

As for Ephesians 3 and the “mystery” of the Body of Christ even Paul says that mystery was made known to the Apostles [See Eph 3:5]. And what was this mystery that was not known to “…the sons of men in other generations” [Eph 3:4] but was now made “…to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;” [Eph 3:5] The answer is in Ephesians 3:6, “6 that is, how the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.” In the OT Gentiles were not the chosen people. In the NT they were included.

As for the church it is the kingdom right here on earth. There are many places in scripture that place that church here on earth. For example:

Acts 5:11 “And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.”
Acts 8:1 “And Saul was consenting to his death. And on that day a great persecution arose against the church in Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the region of Judea and Sama’ria, except the apostles.”
Acts 8:3 “But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison.”

There are other passages too that refer to the church as being here on earth and noty in the future. And what was the name of this church? Acts 9:31 tells us.

“So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.”

Those words translated into English as “…the church throughout all…” is in the Greek language ecclesia kata holis. You know it as the Catholic Church.

You claim to be following Paul but you are not. You are following yourself. You and you own opinion of scripture think you know better than 2,000 years of christianity. Your vanity goes before your pride and your pride goes before your downfall.

Paul writes that he is the “apostle to the Gentiles” [Romans 11:13]. Peter and the twelve were apostles to the circumcision (Israel) [Galatians 2:8,9]. Christendom seems to have missed this distinction. Notice who Peter is addressing
• Acts 2:22 – ye men of Israel
• Acts 2:36 – house of Israel
• Acts 3:12 – ye men of Israel
• Acts 4:10 – all the people of Israel
• Acts 5:31 – a Prince and a Savior to give repentance to Israel
• 1 Peter 1:1 – to the sojourners scattered…….

Note to whom James addresses his epistle:

• James 1:1 – to the twelve tribes scattered abroad

John writes to “my little children” – 1 John 2:1. In light of Galatians 2:8,9, we know that these are the Jews.

The “dispensation of the grace of God,” the present church-age, was first revealed to Paul.

Ephesians 3:2 – “If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God WHICH IS GIVEN ME toward you.”

Ephesians 3:3 – “How that by revelation He made known unto me THE MYSTERY (as I wrote before) in few words.” Do you know what THE MYSTERY is?

Colossians 1:25,26 – “Of which I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God WHICH IS GIVEN TO ME for you, to FULFILL the WORD of GOD. EVEN THE MYSTERY WHICH HATH BEEN HIDDEN FROM AGES AND GENERATIONS, BUT NOW [Gk. Nuni – just now and at no other time] is made manifest to His saints.”

Romans 16:25 – “Now to Him that is of power to ESTABLISH YOU, ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL, [and] the preaching of the [Lord] Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO THE REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY, WHICH WAS KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN.”

Believers in this dispensation of the grace of God are “established” by Paul’s “my gospel,” the preaching of [the Lord] Jesus Christ according to the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY….” Are you established? Do you know what the preaching of the Lord Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery is???

Paul was also given the marching orders for the Body of Christ. He writes: “And to make all men see what is the fellowship [Gk koinonia] of the MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been hidden in God……” Ephesians 3:9.

“Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we beg you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.” 2 Corinthians 5:20

Ambassadors represent their sovereign in a foreign land. They ARE NOT SENT UNTIL THEY HAVE BEEN THOROUGHLY TRAINED.

What kind of price did Paul pay for preaching the Lord Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery? On every hand, Paul faced opposition for preaching THE MYSTERY. He was in prison in Rome for this. Notice what he writes in his last epistle:

“Wherein I suffer trouble as an evil doer, even unto bonds.” 2 Timothy 2:7-9.

Paul’s almost constant suffering had its effect upon timid souls. Others, who saw the truth and glory of his message, lacked the courage to stand with Paul in making the mystery known. Some, who started with him, were tempted to, and did turn back. Notice 2 Timothy 4:10-18. But Paul, thanks to the grace of God, persevered. 2 Timothy 1:7,8.

If you stand firmly for Paul’s “my gospel,” you too will “suffer trouble as an evil doer…”

 

[DPMartin]

Quote:The answer: We believe the Bible is true because the Church established by Jesus through its divine authority (thanks to the Holy Spirit) says that the Bible is true.

That church determined which books were scripture so if tate Church was wrong then scripture is wrong.

Quote:
Jesus didn’t write a book or establish a book as Holy.

The Holy Spirit inspired men to produce writings. But it was the church that determined which writings were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Now do you know why it took 300 years after the last writings were inspired by the Holy Spirit for the Bible as we know it, to come into existence?

Quote:
The New Testament was written many years after Jesus’s death. What Jesus did was establish a Church and give it the authority to make infallible decisions on faith and morals. The Bible is a book full of truths of our faith. The reason we believe the books are true is because our infallible, divinely guided Church said so.

Because Jesus said so,

Quote:
So when Protestants believe in books of the New Testament, they are unwittingly following Catholic Tradition!

If you don’t believe that your belief in the Bible is because the Church determined which writings were inspired then maybe you can tell us how you can prove that the epistle to Philomen is truly inspired by the Holy Spirit. I would like to hear it.

]

inkaneer

The tool does not guide the hand of the maker.

Just because the Lord God used the Catholic Church to sort out and set forth that which should be in print in the future for all to read, is not the act of the Church, it is the act of God in and with His Church. Not the will or doing of the Church, for if the Church proclaims this to be it’s own act then it nullifies that it is of God. The Church did not choose, the Lord already chose, which was revealed to the authorities at the time, and obeyed in such decisions that where given into their hand to be made.

And since it is of God why are so many Catholics always trying to find excuses for not behaving as if, and teaching as if it be (NT) the definitive authority? Considering it was the Catholic Church that was used by God to set the definitive NT Scripture, and proclaimed by the Church as such?

 

[paul_c]

Paul writes that he is the “apostle to the Gentiles” [Romans 11:13]. Peter and the twelve were apostles to the circumcision (Israel) [Galatians 2:8,9]. Christendom seems to have missed this distinction. Notice who Peter is addressing
• Acts 2:22 – ye men of Israel
• Acts 2:36 – house of Israel
• Acts 3:12 – ye men of Israel
• Acts 4:10 – all the people of Israel
• Acts 5:31 – a Prince and a Savior to give repentance to Israel
• 1 Peter 1:1 – to the sojourners scattered…….

Note to whom James addresses his epistle:

• James 1:1 – to the twelve tribes scattered abroad

John writes to “my little children” – 1 John 2:1. In light of Galatians 2:8,9, we know that these are the Jews.

The “dispensation of the grace of God,” the present church-age, was first revealed to Paul.

Ephesians 3:2 – “If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God WHICH IS GIVEN ME toward you.”

Ephesians 3:3 – “How that by revelation He made known unto me THE MYSTERY (as I wrote before) in few words.” Do you know what THE MYSTERY is?

Colossians 1:25,26 – “Of which I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God WHICH IS GIVEN TO ME for you, to FULFILL the WORD of GOD. EVEN THE MYSTERY WHICH HATH BEEN HIDDEN FROM AGES AND GENERATIONS, BUT NOW [Gk. Nuni – just now and at no other time] is made manifest to His saints.”

Romans 16:25 – “Now to Him that is of power to ESTABLISH YOU, ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL, [and] the preaching of the [Lord] Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO THE REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY, WHICH WAS KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN.”

Believers in this dispensation of the grace of God are “established” by Paul’s “my gospel,” the preaching of [the Lord] Jesus Christ according to the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY….” Are you established? Do you know what the preaching of the Lord Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery is???

Paul was also given the marching orders for the Body of Christ. He writes: “And to make all men see what is the fellowship [Gk koinonia] of the MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been hidden in God……” Ephesians 3:9.

“Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we beg you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.” 2 Corinthians 5:20

Ambassadors represent their sovereign in a foreign land. They ARE NOT SENT UNTIL THEY HAVE BEEN THOROUGHLY TRAINED.

What kind of price did Paul pay for preaching the Lord Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery? On every hand, Paul faced opposition for preaching THE MYSTERY. He was in prison in Rome for this. Notice what he writes in his last epistle:

“Wherein I suffer trouble as an evil doer, even unto bonds.” 2 Timothy 2:7-9.

Paul’s almost constant suffering had its effect upon timid souls. Others, who saw the truth and glory of his message, lacked the courage to stand with Paul in making the mystery known. Some, who started with him, were tempted to, and did turn back. Notice 2 Timothy 4:10-18. But Paul, thanks to the grace of God, persevered. 2 Timothy 1:7,8.

If you stand firmly for Paul’s “my gospel,” you too will “suffer trouble as an evil doer…”

Quickcat,
you are still trying to create division between the Apostles where none exists.
Of Course Peter addressed his discourses in the early chapter of Acts to the people of Israel. That’s where he was. That doesn’t mean that what he said was only applicable to Israel, any more than saying that Paul’s letter to the Corinthians was only applicable to people living in Corinth. We must understand the Bible lessons as being applicable to all people, don’t you agree?

 

[Philthy]

First, SS is not a doctrine. Who said it wasn’t nailed down?

. I guess that I am alleging it is not. If it is nailed down as you say, when did it get nailed down and how was the fact that it was nailed down revealed to you?

This is sort of a catch 22; first we are said to be our own little popes who can personally interpret, but then if we say that we leave interpretation and practice to the church, the practice is suspect on those grounds as well.

It becomes a catch 22 by the implied practice of sola scripture. It is not a catch 22 within the Catholic paradigm. Within that paradigm the question becomes “By what authority does a Lutheran council or body claim to have binding authority on the faithful?”.
I suspect there are millions of Catholics who cannot state the specifics of Catholic teaching, either. That, in and of itself, does not call Catholic teaching into question. It doesn’t even call into question Catholic catechesis, or the character of Catholics. Most Catholics - and Lutherans - allow the Church to teach.

Thought I did. What did I miss?

Jon

Hi Jon
It seems you may have missed post 179 - I had asked a few questions that were left unanswered. In those questions simply substitute “the practice of sola scripture” wherever the term “it” appears.

 

[inkaneer]

inkaneer

The tool does not guide the hand of the maker.

No, the Maker guides His tool.

Just because the Lord God used the Catholic Church to sort out and set forth that which should be in print in the future for all to read, is not the act of the Church, it is the act of God in and with His Church. Not the will or doing of the Church, for if the Church proclaims this to be it’s own act then it nullifies that it is of God. The Church did not choose, the Lord already chose, which was revealed to the authorities at the time, and obeyed in such decisions that where given into their hand to be made.

Well first off I am glad for your acknowledgement, “*Just because the Lord God used the Catholic Church to sort out and set forth that which should be in print in the future for all to read.”. *Because He sure could not have used any protestant denominations in the fourth century now could He? No, He sure couldn’t. So having established that, can you tell me by what authority the protestant denominations removed seven books from that Bible canon that God used the Catholic Church to determine in the fourth Century? The canon determined by God using the Catholic Church consisted of 73 books. But protestants only have 66 books in their Bible. Was that an OOPSIE on the part of God? Was the Catholic Church wrong even though you acknowledge that it was guided by God? Or, heaven forbid, could those protestant forefathers have violated the Canon originally established by God? Who is wrong here, protestants, or God?

And since it is of God why are so many Catholics always trying to find excuses for not behaving as if, and teaching as if it be (NT) the definitive authority? Considering it was the Catholic Church that was used by God to set the definitive NT Scripture, and proclaimed by the Church as such?

Because Catholics know that God is not limited to the scriptures. Aso the scriptures are not the only definitive authority. Jesus established a church with authority. The binding and loosening power mentioned in Mattthew 16 and 18 alone clearly states that. One has to be blind not to see the connection with the OT chief Steward in Isaiah 22. The Church functioned very well, thank you, before the canon of scripture was set. It functioned based on Apostolic Tradition of which scripture is only part. It continues to do so. You also follow some of that Apostolic Tradition not contained in scripture. Where, for instance, does scripture say we are to worship on the first day [Sunday] of the week? It doesn’t. So why do protestants do it? Why do some protestants baptize infants while others do not? Because scripture doesn’t give the answer one way or the other. Those who baptize infants are following Apostolic Tradition. This whole sola scriptura idea of encasing God within the covers of a book and limiting Him to just those words written in red ink was never a part of the church until the 16th century.

 

[jerryb1020]

Danny,

In post # 26 on May 11, I asked for some responses from non-Catholic members. I wrote: "My question is, if Christians believe that Christ died, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven because it is in the Bible and it is there because the Apostles believed, shouldn’t all Christians believe everything that the Apostles believed?

Therefore, for example, since there is much evidence the Apostles believed that Jesus meant it literally, not symbolically, when He said ‘This is my body. This is my blood’, and there is vast evidence that the Apostles taught those beliefs to others, how can any denomination that teaches a symbolic interpretation of those words claim they are ‘bible believing’ and ‘following Christ’?"

Danny, would you mind giving your view for a different example.

Jesus said to Simon, “Your are Peter and upon this rock I will build My church” Since there is also vast evidence that the Apostles believed that Peter was to lead the Church, that they acknowledged his leadership, and that they believed and taught that successors were to be appointed “til the end of the world/age/time”, how can any denomination that does not accept the present Pope as a legitimate successor of Peter claim they are ‘bible believing’ and ‘following Christ’?"

Thanks,

JB

 

[avflf]

Quickcat,
you are still trying to create division between the Apostles where none exists.
Of Course Peter addressed his discourses in the early chapter of Acts to the people of Israel. That’s where he was. That doesn’t mean that what he said was only applicable to Israel, any more than saying that Paul’s letter to the Corinthians was only applicable to people living in Corinth. We must understand the Bible lessons as being applicable to all people, don’t you agree?

Let’s say you are giving a lecture on “potatoes”, for example and you brought to the lecture room 40 sacks of different potatoes. At the beginning of the lecture you inform your audience that you’ll be talking, specifically, about the 12 sacks you have marked with a large red “X”.
Now, when you use expressions like “all the potatoes” or “every potato” how would the audience interpret what you mean by it? Would they ignore or forget what you said right at the beginning of the lecture and assume you were referring to all the potatoes in the 40 sacks?
If Jesus said that he had come specifically for “the lost tribes of Israel” and the Angel proclaimed that he would be given the throne “of his father David” why do you interpret this as referring to every Tom, Dick or Harry in the world?