Fatalism?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bahman
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Real thoughts are real thoughts. God knows them quite well.

There is no problem.
 
Bahman said:
That is no complete. You are mixing the situation before and after decision.

Before decision we have A and B in disposal, meaning that both are real. From God point of view however A is real and B is an illusion. I stress again, it is illusion since its negate is absolute knowledge. This means that the fact you assume that you can choose B is false.
Click to expand...
Real thoughts are real thoughts. God knows them quite well.

There is no problem.

No illusion - reality. I really did have those thoughts. They were and are not illusion.
 
Bookcat said:
Real thoughts are real thoughts. God knows them quite well.

There is no problem.

No illusion - reality. I really did have those thoughts. They were and are not illusion.
Click to expand...
So you accept there a tension?
 
I think of choice A and choice B and consider them.
God sees this (and without God I cannot do this - I would not even be)
I decide on choice A. B is not chosen. But it is not that I did not have that thought I did.
God sees this (and without God I cannot do this - I would not even be)
I do choice A.
God sees this (and without God I cannot do this - I would not even be)

God sees all this at once (and the fall of Rome…)

No tension…just God is God and I am a creature in time.
 
Bahman said:
No. You are going very fast. Let me correct what you said:

I freely can choose A or B.
The ability to choose something makes it real.
Therefore, both A and B are real.

Assume that there is a God who knows all things.
God’s knows your choice, A.
From God point of view A is real and B is an illusion.

Hence there is a tension between your point of view and Gods point of view.
Click to expand...
The choice is real. Of course the result of the choice, cannot be real as it’s a non event. It never happened, nor never will happen, from God’s perspective. But it would have been a real event had the person choose to make it one. The event not being real does not make the decision to not choose the event not real.

You’re really thinking yourself into nonsensical circles here.

The very reason that it is a non-event is because of the choice to make it a non-event. The event and the choice are not the same thing. They are different entities. A non-event does not equal a non-choice in any manner whatsoever.
 
Bahman said:
In reality there is only one option which is always is real!
Click to expand...
No reality is reality.

Including my thoughts and my actions and all the circumstances involved.

You seem to think that thoughts are not real.
 
Bookcat said:
I think of choice A and choice B and consider them.
God sees this (and without God I cannot do this - I would not even be)
I decide on choice A. B is not chosen. But it is not that I did not have that thought I did.
God sees this (and without God I cannot do this - I would not even be)
I do choice A.
God sees this (and without God I cannot do this - I would not even be)

God sees all this at once (and the fall of Rome…)

No tension…just God is God and I am a creature in time.
Click to expand...
What you are missing is the definition of choice which means that it is approachable. B as a choice does not exist since God knows that you don’t choose it. It is an illusion in your part.
 
Bahman said:
What you are missing is the definition of choice which means that it is approachable. B as a choice does not exist since God knows that you don’t choose it. It is an illusion in your part.
Click to expand...
No it is not. It is a thought on my part - a possible thing I can choose.

God see all this (my thoughts and what I choose and that I did not choose one possibility but another) and with God I could not even think one thought - I would not be.
 
St_Redemption said:
The choice is real. Of course the result of the choice, cannot be real as it’s a non event. It never happened, nor never will happen, from God’s perspective. But it would have been a real event had the person choose to make it one. The event not being real does not make the decision to not choose the event not real.

You’re really thinking yourself into nonsensical circles here.

The very reason that it is a non-event is because of the choice to make it a non-event. The event and the choice are not the same thing. They are different entities. A non-event does not equal a non-choice in any manner whatsoever.
Click to expand...
That is a circle you have created.
 
Perception too though, the illusion is real to the participant of the wrong choice. Even if a individual had a choice to return and make a different choice, if they are in denial they would make the same choice and to them that is right and real.
 
Bahman said:
Now you are not making any argument.
Click to expand...
No I am simply noting that your underlying premise is not correct. A thought is not an illusion.

A thought is a thought - it really does happen in my mind and yes God sees all my thoughts -both those I act upon and those I reject.
 
Bookcat said:
No I am simply noting that your underlying premise is not correct. A thought is not an illusion.

A thought is a thought - it really does happen in my mind and yes God sees all my thoughts -both those I act upon and those I reject.
Click to expand...
No it is not. You want to become a millionaire and you cannot because reasoning tell you that you cannot. You want to choose B but you cannot because reasoning tell you that you cannot. It is the very same constraint.
 
Bahman said:
No it is not. You want to become a millionaire and you cannot because reasoning tell you that you cannot. You want to choose B but you cannot because reasoning tell you that you cannot. It is the very same constraint.
Click to expand...
The thought “I want to be a millionaire” is a real thought. I really think it. I just cannot merely by that thought “become a millionaire” but that thought was real and known of course to God.

God knows both my thoughts and my actions. Both those I thoughts I can carry further into action and those I cannot or that I choose not. God knows all that is (including the reality that I think Y)

(not that I really want such!)
 
Bookcat said:
The thought “I want to be a millionaire” is a real thought. I really think it. I just cannot merely by that thought “become a millionaire” but that thought was real and known of course to God.

God knows both my thoughts and my actions. Both those I thoughts I can carry further into action and those I cannot or that I choose not. God knows all that is (including the reality that I think Y)

(not that I really want such!)
Click to expand...
What is the point of thought if it cannot come through? From now on, you know well that you are not free to choose B. That is your reality whether you like it or not.
 
Bahman said:
No. You are going very fast. Let me correct what you said:

I freely can choose A or B.
The ability to choose something makes it real.
Click to expand...
This is not correct. Something is real whether it is a choice or not.
Therefore, both A and B are real.
Click to expand...
True, but not base on the faulty logic presented above.
Assume that there is a God who knows all things.
Click to expand...
Why do I need to assume something that is known to be true?
God’s knows your choice, A.
Click to expand...
True
From God point of view A is real and B is an illusion.
Click to expand...
Not true. Faulty logic (non sequitur).
Hence there is a tension between your point of view and Gods point of view.
Click to expand...
There is no tension except in your fantasy of God. The real God does not present this tension.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top