Fatalism?

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What would prove to you that B was a possibility? If you were to choose A but B happened instead? The very fact that only one of the outcomes happens shows that it is a direct result of your choice. If they both happened, or all possible outcomes happened, your choice would be meaningless. THEN your choice would be meaningless. The same is true if you choose A but got B instead, then your choice would be meaningless. But this is not what we observe. What we observe is that when you choose A…A in fact occurs. Which is just what we should expect, being that our choices are meaningful.

So the ability to choose B is real, but the outcome of B is not real, because it was not chosen. But the very reason that it is not real is the direct result of choice. The chooser chose to make it non-existent.
 
Bookcat said:
Cause I do A and B.

If I do it - God knows it. I can not do* anything *without God knowing it.

Yes God sees that I do A and that I do B. That I eat chocolate icecream and later eat vanilla. We are free.
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We are talking about one choice at the time. A or B. God knows that you choose A at given time. Can you choose B at the same time?
 
I think of choice A and choice B and consider them.
God sees this (and without God I cannot do this)

I decide on choice A. B is not chosen. But it is not that I did not have that thought I did.
God sees this (and without God I cannot do this)

I do choice A.
God sees this (and without God I cannot do this)
*
God sees all this at once (and the fall of Rome…)…and more than sees…*
 
Bahman said:
We are talking about one choice at the time. A or B. God knows that you choose A at given time. Can you choose B at the same time?
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You could if it were sensical or meaningful to do so. Like if deciding between tacos and steak, I could say, why not both? If I where deciding between going to Florida or California, then of course I could not choose to do both, because it is not possible. But I could choose either.

If we cannot be credited with choices, you must understand the consequences of your philosophy. It would mean that people would not deserve credit for giving money to the poor, helping the sick, or that people should not be chastised or scorned for killing people, since they didn’t really have a choice in the matter?
 
St_Redemption said:
You could if it were sensical or meaningful to do so. Like if deciding between tacos and steak, I could say, why not both? If I where deciding between going to Florida or California, then of course I could not choose to do both, because it is not possible. But I could choose either.

If we cannot be credited with choices, you must understand the consequences of your philosophy. It would mean that people would not deserve credit for giving money to the poor, helping the sick, or that people should not be chastised or scorned for killing people, since they didn’t really have a choice in the matter?
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I know my philosophy very well. It is very simple. The future is uncertain and depends on our choice on the spot. We are the creator of the situation because we are consciousness.

There is however a fallacy in your belief. We have to make the situation simple in order to realize the mistake. You can do things differently but we have to focus on one decision at a given time. You have two options, A and B, at a given time. God knows that you do A at the given time. Can you do B?
 
Bahman said:
You can do things differently but we have to focus on one decision at a given time. You have two options, A and B, at a given time. God knows that you do A at the given time. Can you do B?
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I can in that moment do B or A. If I choose to do A and actually do A then you do A. A is done. B is not done but I thought of doing B but decided against it. So no I cannot go in a time machine and do B in that same moment. A in that one moment was done.

God knows ALL of this. All that is involved in this moment. My thoughts, my decision. What I choose not to do.

God is not some outside spectator - God holds all in being and I cannot think of A and B without God nor choose A without God. All that exists is held in being by God. God knows me down to the last atom and every thought -every consideration - every movement. He knows my soul too. All of me. My very free will is from God.
 
Bookcat said:
I can in that moment do B or A. If I choose to do A and actually do A then you do A. A is done. B is not done but I thought of doing B but decided against it. So no I cannot go in a time machine and do B in that same moment. A in that one moment was done.
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Good. So you do A and God knows that you do A. Don’t take me wrong, you are free to choose, but you cannot escape your fate, A. Fatalism.
Bookcat said:
God knows ALL of this. All that is involved in this moment. My thoughts my decision.
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Well. You assume so. You might be wrong.
Bookcat said:
God is not some outside spectator - God holds all in being and I cannot think of A and B without God nor choose A without God. All that exists is held in being by God. God knows me down to the last atom and every thought -every consideration - every movement. My very free will is from God.
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Well. You assume so. You might be wrong.
 
Bahman said:
Good. So you do A and God knows that you do A. Don’t take me wrong, you are free to choose, but you cannot escape your fate, A. Fatalism.

.
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Huh? Your mixing terms - not fatalism but free choice. By the very fact that one is free to choose it is not fatalism.
 
Bahman said:
Well. You assume so. You might be wrong.
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Nope I am not wrong. God is God. Tis Divine Revelation.

And this is Catholic Answers…so your coming here for that. And that is what you have been given.
 
Bookcat said:
Huh? Your mixing terms - not fatalism but free choice. By the very fact that one is free to choose it is not fatalism.
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There is no mixing term my friend. A is your fate and you are free to choose it. Otherwise you have to drop the concept all knowing God. It is your choice!
 
Bahman said:
There is no mixing term my friend. A is your fate and you are free to choose it. Otherwise you have to drop the concept all knowing God. It is your choice!
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Again your mistaken. Please read through all my posts in this thread.

Until you do I do not think we can go further.

Please go read them again. Thanks.
 
Bookcat said:
Again your mistaken. Please read through all my posts in this thread.

Until you do I do not think we can go further.

Please go read them again. Thanks.
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I am very aware of your way of thinking. In fact I know it better than you. That is why I manage to find the error in it. Fatalism. You don’t want to accept the very fact that Gods sees impose a constraint on your life, fate. You are free to act, but you cannot change your fate.
 
Bahman said:
I am very aware of your way of thinking. In fact I know it better than you. That is why I manage to find the error in it. Fatalism. You don’t want to accept the very fact that Gods sees impose a constraint on your life, fate. You are free to act, but you cannot change your fate.
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You have various mistaken views and ideas.

But you do not seem to wish to read and think seriously about what I write - instead you keep coming back with simply asserting your misunderstandings again and then you say your “very aware of my way of thinking”. This as I recall is a kind of fallacy - a mistaken way of arguing. Being of such a “dismissive” approach is not the way to discuss a matter.

Oh and you cannot know* my* way of thinking better than me…that would make you God…which I assure you is also incorrect…
 
Bookcat said:
You have various mistaken views and ideas.

But you do not wish to read and think about what I write - instead you keep coming back with simply asserting your misunderstandings again and then you say your “very aware of my way of thinking”. This as I recall is a kind of fallacy - a mistaken way of arguing.

Oh and you cannot know* my* way of thinking better than me…that would make you God…which I assure you is also incorrect…

It seems you are seeking to be more a troll than a person who wishes to discuss a question.
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Show me where I was wrong. By now I took you to the place that you accept very simple fact that if God knows you do A then you do A. You are free though but you always pick up the right one, the only real option, what is written in Book of God’s sees. This is simply your belief. Fatalism.
 
Bahman said:
Show me where I was wrong. By now I took you to the place that you accept very simple fact that if God knows you do A then you do A. You are free though but you always pick up the right one, the only real option, what is written in Book of God’s sees. This is simply your belief. Fatalism.
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No.
 
Not going to keep going round and round with you.

See my posts above.

I will leave you also with some quotes from the Catechism. What we actually believe.

Catechism:

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life…
 
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