Father James Altman: You cannot be Catholic & a Democrat. Period

[PaulinVA]

If you have time, here is a very informative panel discussion featuring Cardinal Joseph Tobin of Newark.

I actually listened to/watched the whole thing. Thanks for posting!

Okay, I do have to set my confirmation bias aside, because the speakers seem to agree with my positions. I thought, though, that the Cardinal’s comment about the important virtue of weighing the overarching value of the common good of the country was important to point out.

 

[fide]

If you have time, here is a very informative panel discussion featuring Cardinal Joseph Tobin of Newark. Cardinal Tobin is apparently more concerned with the perilous prospect of another four years of Trump (as am I), and he clearly instructs us that we can in good conscience vote for Biden . He even addresses the “preeminent issue” phrase regarding abortion, and reaffirms the Church’s clear teaching that we need not be single-issue voters.

As a Catholic, I very humbly and sincerely apologize to the whole world for the grossly horrific, scandalous elevation to Cardinal of the Church, of a man such as Theodore Edgar McCarrick.

Thus I remind you - the title “Cardinal” in itself does NOT insure a faithful, holy, Catholic judgment about ANY issue at all.

Concerning this man at issue in your post:

CNA Staff, Sep 16, 2020 / 01:45 pm (CNA).- Cardinal Joseph Tobin of Newark said on Tuesday that voters could choose Joe Biden in good conscience, and suggested he would have difficulty voting for President Donald Trump. The cardinal told CNA Sept. 16 that his comments were not intended to endorse any political candidate for office, but declined to say whether he believes a Catholic could vote in good conscience for Donald Trump.
….

Tobin did not offer the “grave moral reasons” that he thought might justify a vote for Biden, whose campaign has said his administration would to codify abortion protections into federal law, permit direct federal funding of abortion through the repeal of the Hyde Amendement, restore federal funding to abortion providers, and attempt to prevent the passage of limitations on abortion by state legislatures.

Biden has also said that he would repeal the religious exemption to the HHS contraceptive mandate, which granted relief to opposing groups such as the Little Sisters of the Poor; a repeal could reignite the Sisters’ years-long legal battle against the mandate.

Joseph Meaney, president of the National Catholic Bioethics Center, told CNA last week that Biden has taken “the most extreme stance he could on the abortion issue,”

During the panel, Tobin said Catholics should vote in favor of the common good, exercise prudence, and avoid reducing an election to “how a candidate stands on a single issue,” at least, he said “within the current panorama of issues.”

"I suppose if somebody was running on a nuclear war platform, advocating a holocaust, worldwide incernation [incineration?], that might be the single issue that could make the discernment a lot easier,” Tobin said.

 

[PaulinVA]

Concerning this man at issue in your post:

One quote from the Cardinal’s press release:

“At the same time” the statement continued, “a voter should not use a candidate’s opposition to an intrinsic evil to justify indifference or inattentiveness to other important moral issues involving human life and dignity.”

 

[Jeanne_S]

I think your fears are well founded and I share them.In fact we are already seeing the nose of the camel under the tent with what you mention.

 

[fide]

One quote from the Cardinal’s press release:

“At the same time” the statement continued, “a voter should not use a candidate’s opposition to an intrinsic evil to justify indifference or inattentiveness to other important moral issues involving human life and dignity.”

yes - such as a nuclear holocaust. Very relevant to this election? Really?

During the panel, Tobin said Catholics should vote in favor of the common good, exercise prudence, and avoid reducing an election to “how a candidate stands on a single issue,” at least, he said “within the current panorama of issues.”

"I suppose if somebody was running on a nuclear war platform, advocating a holocaust, worldwide incernation [incineration?], that might be the single issue that could make the discernment a lot easier,” Tobin said.

He’s saying that THAT from the other candidate, could justify a Biden vote, so horrific IS HIS platform.

 

[christofirst]

I remind you - the title “Cardinal” in itself does NOT insure a faithful, holy, Catholic judgment about ANY issue at all

I’ll remember that the next time someone brings up one of Cardinal Burke’s statements, or Archbishop Vigano.

As I mentioned in another thread, Cardinal Tobin apparently bases his moral decisions on the consistent ethic of life, with which you are free to disagree. I’ll accept his teaching and recommendation over Fr. Altman, who has already reportedly been corrected by his bishop for his statement.

 

[PaulinVA]

yes - such as a nuclear holocaust. Very relevant to this election? Really?

There’s no need to exaggerate the current situation.

Trump supporters think he is the most pro-life President ever and overlook all of the other aspects of his Presidency. Others look past past that and see an autocrat who says he has absolute power to do anything (and tries), seeds the government with cronies who do his bidding, lies constantly, has no empathy for anyone, is unable to lead, and always blames other people for his failings.

This is just a brief list. I think the American Republic is at stake. You might disagree. Oh, well, you use your conscience and I’ll use mine.

 

[Gorgias]

As a Catholic, I very humbly and sincerely apologize to the whole world for the grossly horrific, scandalous elevation to Cardinal of the Church, of a man such as Theodore Edgar McCarrick.

Thus I remind you - the title “Cardinal” in itself does NOT insure a faithful, holy, Catholic judgment about ANY issue at all.

Concerning this man

Wow. Just… wow.

Smearing Cdl Tobin with the spectre of Cdl McCarrick, just because you dislike his message? And then, referring to him simply as “this man”?

Wow. I’ll say a prayer for you at Mass tomorrow.

There have been quite a few Republican administrations since Roe v Wade. Have they eliminated abortion?

 

[christofirst]

The extrapolation from what we currently have to what is feared we could have, it’s like you and I are living in two different worlds.

An interesting thought experiment. For one day we should exchange our sources of information, the websites and other media we frequent which forms our worldview. Probably neither of us could stand it for more than a few hours!

 

[MikeInVA]

Here is an interesting article about the continuing erroneous attempt to conflate the Democratic party with communism.

The democrats want to take money from the people who earn it and give it to those won’t didn’t. Seems pretty much like communism to me.

 

[PaulinVA]

The democrats want to take money from the people who earn it and give it to those won’t didn’t. Seems pretty much like communism to me.

Seems pretty much like every government program I can think of.

 

[MikeInVA]

I agree. I think it’s a matter of degrees.

 

[HopingforGodtohelp]

To me, all the talk about Trump is irrelevant. Some love Trump. That’s fine. Some think Trump has been a terrible President. That’s also fine.

The issue is not whether or not you think Trump is a good President or “deserves a second term.” The issue is whether or not you should vote for a man who takes a look at the legalized slaughter of 62 million unborn babies and says that should continue instead of Trump. Not only should it continue, but he thinks it should be expanded, the government should subsidize killing those unborn babies.

Here is what Pope Benedict said on the issue:
“When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.”

Now let’s change this a bit. Let’s say that instead of allowing the murder of unborn babies, Joe Biden said that the murder of 62 million black people should not only be legal, but be subsidized by the government. What if he said that the holocaust should be legal, and a woman’s choice whether or not to kill a jewish person? And the government should pay for the gun the women shoot them with.

If you would not vote for Biden if he said it was okay to kill 62 million black people and subsidize it, then you should not vote for Biden. If you would not vote for Biden if he said that slaughtering the jewish people again should be legal and subsidized by the government, then you should not vote for Biden. If you believe that abortion is not as important because unborn babies are less important than adult black people or jewish people, you are going against the teaching of the church, which teaches that the unborn are humans just like the rest of us and deserving of equal respect of their lives.

To me, it seems really really hard to find a proportionate reason to vote for a candidate who supports legal abortion, nevermind one who supports subsidizing it with government money. It saddens me that Catholics are even considering such a candidate. I’d say I support Trump on more other issues than abortion than Biden. But if you switched Trump and Biden’s positions on life, I would vote for Biden without question. To me, it is impossible to justify the murder of 62 million unborn babies. The only proportionate reasons would be someone considering starting a nuclear war or instituting a Mao-like famine.

 

[Gorgias]

Abortion hasn’t been eliminated in the current administration.
So, does your analysis therefore include the current POTUS, who is – not coincidentally – the Republican candidate for President?

 

[HopingforGodtohelp]

Abortion hasn’t been eliminated in the current administration.
So, does your analysis therefore include the current POTUS, who is – not coincidentally – the Republican candidate for President?

Hate to say it, but this is nothing less than sophistry.

The current regime of abortion legal up to the point of birth is not something a President can just change on a whim. It was instituted by 7 liberal lawyers with a “Constitutional” judgment, meaning that no law, federal or state, can be passed to limit abortion before viability. It was decreed a “constitutional right”

However, the President has taken as many actions as he can to limit the atrocity of abortion:

Abortion: Nearly 900 clinics lose Title X funding after Trump rule

He has barred 900 abortion clinics from federal funding. Two planned parenthoods in Ohio shut down immediately after losing this funding, and there have hopefully been more.

Joe Biden has pledged to repeal this rule and give funding back to the abortionists. Not only has he done that, he’s pledged to support a Congressional law to codify a “right to abortion” so that even if the Supreme Court reverses its erroneous decision, abortion would STILL be legal.

It is absurd to blame the Republicans for not making abortion illegal, when the reason they haven’t made abortion illegal is because people like you vote for Democrats who oppose their efforts to do just that.

Human Life Protection Act - Wikipedia.

When Alabama elected a Republican supermajority, they actually went as far to ignore the court and ban abortion. If all Catholics elected Republicans, the same would happen. To blame Republicans for not banning abortions when the reason they can’t is because Democrats oppose it is nothing more than sophistry.

 

[Gorgias]

Hate to say it, but this is nothing less than sophistry.

It’s the argument being made, though, isn’t it? “A vote for the Democratic candidate is a vote for abortion, and a vote for the Republican candidate is a vote to elminate abortion.”

And yes – I agree that that argument is sophistry. That’s why my response points out the illogic of the argument. Thanks for picking up on that!

It is absurd to blame the Republicans for not making abortion illegal

Then it’s absurd to vote in a Republican on the abortion issue. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander…

reason they haven’t made abortion illegal is because people like you

Have a lovely day, HGH.

 

[HopingforGodtohelp]

Sorry, the last line was a bit aggressive. I get a bit upset when I think people are handwaving away the rights of the unborn. If I misinterpreted your position, I sincerely apologize. I think abortion remains legal because people continue to vote for democrats despite knowing abortion is wrong. If that doesn’t include you, sorry

 

[fide]

Wow. I’ll say a prayer for you at Mass tomorrow.

Thank you, and include prayers also, please for the many many “Catholics” (clergy and laity) who have turned their backs on Catholic Tradition to try to move the whole Church to the political left, with morals thrown under the bus.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

It has never been great, but now it is worse.

 

[c4csp]

It has never been great, but now it is worse.

What oppression are they facing under Trump?