JohnStrachan
New member
The guy’s got guts. I wish more in church leadership would speak the truth.
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fide
Guest
What I don’t hear you “getting” is the primary right to life. If one candidate supports a truckload of rights, social benefits, ecological sensitivities, and expanded rights, empowerment and financing to kill more and more innocent inconvenient totally vulnerable children unable to speak for or defend themselves (and who cannot vote, btw), then how in the name of mercy can you or anyone vote to elect and empower that candidate?
The right to LIFE is first - primary - essential for any society to recognize, if it would claim to honor any other right that is, by the way, due to persons by God Himself. If a person has NO RIGHT TO LIVE, then what good is any other right that big omnipotent government may deem “admissible” to “allow” for that poor victim soul?
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christofirst
Guest
Your staunch commitment to protecting the unborn is admirable and cannot be denied.
Reading again the passage which I quoted above from Pope Francis in Rejoice and be Glad, we are taught several things. One is that we should not diminish or disparage the efforts of others to promote the common good, dismissing it for example as communist. Another is that while the lives of the unborn are indeed sacred, the lives of those in need who are already born are equally sacred. What we are not taught are any specific ways of promoting life which must be undertaken, calling one way, such as a prohibitive law which may or may not achieve the desired result, necessarily preferable to another way, such as addressing the situations that contribute to abortion. We are also taught that we should not condemn those who do not share our particular passion for or plan of action regarding any single issue.
Reading again the passage which I quoted above from Pope Francis in Rejoice and be Glad, we are taught several things. One is that we should not diminish or disparage the efforts of others to promote the common good, dismissing it for example as communist. Another is that while the lives of the unborn are indeed sacred, the lives of those in need who are already born are equally sacred. What we are not taught are any specific ways of promoting life which must be undertaken, calling one way, such as a prohibitive law which may or may not achieve the desired result, necessarily preferable to another way, such as addressing the situations that contribute to abortion. We are also taught that we should not condemn those who do not share our particular passion for or plan of action regarding any single issue.
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fide
Guest
I don’t mean to insult you, I really don’t. But your reasoning astounds and bewilders me. The virtue of prudence - supernatural prudence - is most needed here. “The right act fitting in the right situation.” Case:
A baby has been left exposed naked in the cold, left on the sidewalk, and will not survive for long. In addition, some rats are seen sniffing around for food nearby. But wait: An old lady is struggling to get her packages up to her 10th floor walk-up. Two situations of the poor, in need. Oh dear. What to do first?
Can’t we agree that the child’s LIFE has immediate needs of immediate concern, and is due our FIRST concern. The old lady is not in danger of DEATH, at least not right away.
Can’t we agree the need to STOP the killing of the innocent is more important and pressing than bettering the lifestyles of the poor and marginalized who are not being treated justly, in many cases, but are NOT being murdered at will by their mothers and doctors?
How this can be an “issue” for any Christian (not to mention Catholic clergy of ANY station in the hierarchy!) leaves me deeply, deeply troubled.
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Victoria33
Guest
The Bishops have called abortion the preeminent issue. All of those other things matter and Catholics and our fellow Christians do much to combat these other problems.
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christofirst
Guest
There’s a bill which just passed the House and is now before the Senate which I hope we can all support, the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act, HR 2694. I mention it because it was sponsored by a Democratic and to hopefully show we’re not all the evil anti-lifers we’re too often made out to be.
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Miketdobbs
Guest
Just a few quick quotations
Cardinal Gerald Muller recently said something that I think holds alot of merit
He wrote "the right to life is the “basis” for all other rights, he said, adding that God created everybody “according to his image and likeness.”
“Therefore, life is the basis. All the other values have no basis [and] no reality — social justice and equality for everybody — if you deny the life of the people.”
Pope St. John Paul II taught in Evangelium Vitae , "Abortion and euthanasia are thus crimes which no human law can claim to legitimize. There is no obligation in conscience to obey such laws; instead there is a grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection.
In 2002, then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who served as Pope Benedict XVI from 2005 to 2013, wrote “Catholic lawmakers have a “grave and clear obligation” to oppose legalized abortion and other attacks on the right to life”
“John Paul II, continuing the constant teaching of the Church, has reiterated many times that those who are directly involved in lawmaking bodies have a grave and clear obligation to oppose any law that attacks human life,” “For them, as for every Catholic, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to promote such laws or to vote for them.”
My personal conclusion and opinion is that if we look at everything that Biden has said that he will do if he gets elected… he has already admitted to promoting more abortions if he is elected through various directives and legislative processes. He has admitted that he plans on committing these sins. Premeditated acts are more serious. We do not have to guess… He has said what he will do. How can we vote for somebody who knowingly will do this? Will we not share some of the guilt?
Cardinal Gerald Muller recently said something that I think holds alot of merit
He wrote "the right to life is the “basis” for all other rights, he said, adding that God created everybody “according to his image and likeness.”
“Therefore, life is the basis. All the other values have no basis [and] no reality — social justice and equality for everybody — if you deny the life of the people.”
Pope St. John Paul II taught in Evangelium Vitae , "Abortion and euthanasia are thus crimes which no human law can claim to legitimize. There is no obligation in conscience to obey such laws; instead there is a grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection.
In 2002, then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who served as Pope Benedict XVI from 2005 to 2013, wrote “Catholic lawmakers have a “grave and clear obligation” to oppose legalized abortion and other attacks on the right to life”
“John Paul II, continuing the constant teaching of the Church, has reiterated many times that those who are directly involved in lawmaking bodies have a grave and clear obligation to oppose any law that attacks human life,” “For them, as for every Catholic, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to promote such laws or to vote for them.”
My personal conclusion and opinion is that if we look at everything that Biden has said that he will do if he gets elected… he has already admitted to promoting more abortions if he is elected through various directives and legislative processes. He has admitted that he plans on committing these sins. Premeditated acts are more serious. We do not have to guess… He has said what he will do. How can we vote for somebody who knowingly will do this? Will we not share some of the guilt?
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Gorgias
Guest
To be fair, this example merely lampoons the case that your interlocutors attempt to make, and ends up making you look somewhat uncharitable. The analysis isn’t merely a “life vs inconvenience” decision, and it hurts your case to frame it up as such.
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fide
Guest
Somehow I’m not shocked by the opinions from your side of things. Once an innocent human person is disposable, all kinds of judgments fall into darkness. Tell me, if you don’t like the word “inconvenience” what, exactly, does justify the killing of a totally innocent vulnerable, person? The Dems, of course proclaim the “right” to kill the child for any reason or for no reason - for inconvenience? Sure - why not?
There is a way out of this moral insanity, for any who can open their eyes.
There is a way out of this moral insanity, for any who can open their eyes.
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Gorgias
Guest
As long as you frame up the discussion as “our side of things” and “your side of things”, I’m afraid you’ll make little headway. Dividing Christians into two camps has been a bad approach from the very start.
Besides, how do you know what my ‘side of things’ is, anyway ?!? All you know is that I’m unimpressed by the approach which you lionize.
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fide
Guest
That is exactly the reality that haunts and torments me. Jesus is NOT divided. Truth is NOT divided. Sin is divided from righteousness; the lie is divided from the Truth. The evil one is dancing with glee in his apparent success. His Church is NOT divided because He cannot be divided.
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Gorgias
Guest
And yet, His people divide themselves into “our side of things” and “your side of things”. Sad.
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fide
Guest
If you want to see and feel authentic sadness - the horror worthy of the profound grief and agony of heart that is due - look until you see the murder of babies for what it IS. Academic detachment has revealed its sterility before - in Nazi Germany - in forced enslavement of Africans in the “civilized” West, in places and eras through human history, and it continues today in polite “debates”, while the voiceless are being ripped into pieces in their mother’s wombs, and extracted. “Problem” solved. Move on.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
It’s unfortunate that some who advocate strongly on the side of the unborn aren’t interested in building any sort of consensus or, indeed, hearing what anyone else has to say, and seem to always end up condemning anyone who expresses a slightly different view. It’s especially unfortunate when they condemn people who actually agree with them that abortion is an evil, just because those people make the “mistake” of saying that they also care about those already born and living in poor conditions on this earth.
Instead of bonding over the care you have in common, we get disparaging statements referencing Nazis and polite debates. Those sorts of remarks are not persuasive, not logical, not kind, and solve nothing.
Instead of bonding over the care you have in common, we get disparaging statements referencing Nazis and polite debates. Those sorts of remarks are not persuasive, not logical, not kind, and solve nothing.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
This argument that pro-life Catholics only care about the unborn is actually a problem and an argument made frequently by the secular world and pro-choice defenders… It is sad to hear it from other Catholics.
The Church clearly says, we care for all from the womb to the tomb but there is a reason the Bishops have made abortion their priority issue.
It is not that those who fight for abortion first do not care about the poor and everyone already born, it is just that in order to truly care for those who are already born, everyone must first have a right to live.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Gorgias was referring to a post that referred to his own view as being “your side of things”.
Gorgias is a long-time poster here, and although I have not agreed with him on everything and at times have gotten frustrated and even hit the Mute button for a short while, there is absolutely no reason to think he is anything other than a good, commited Catholic who follows Catholic teaching and makes many good, substantive, moral and upright contributions here.
He’s hardly the kind of guy that any rational mind would think “should be cast out”.
I’m guessing you didn’t read the whole exchange to get the context of the remark before you blithely started suggesting people on this forum should be “cast out so that they might repent”…of what, when they already have stated their opposition to abortion? Repent of not agreeing with the extreme approach taken by some posters on the thread?
Gorgias is a long-time poster here, and although I have not agreed with him on everything and at times have gotten frustrated and even hit the Mute button for a short while, there is absolutely no reason to think he is anything other than a good, commited Catholic who follows Catholic teaching and makes many good, substantive, moral and upright contributions here.
He’s hardly the kind of guy that any rational mind would think “should be cast out”.
I’m guessing you didn’t read the whole exchange to get the context of the remark before you blithely started suggesting people on this forum should be “cast out so that they might repent”…of what, when they already have stated their opposition to abortion? Repent of not agreeing with the extreme approach taken by some posters on the thread?
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christofirst
Guest
Cast out? Yes, Gov, cast out your net, for faith like yours will haul in a great multitude for the Lord!
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
You’re actually not a bad chap when we’re discussing icons or St. Michael’s Rocks and staying away from the subject of women 
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felsguy
Guest
Couldn’t agree more looking back over the past four years.Edited: Oh, wait…you were directing that at Biden?
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fide
Guest
Oh no - not to Biden! He is neither skilled at pandering nor clever. He merely reads what is set before him, when he is awake. I was referring to the main faces and forces of the Party: Schumer and Schiff, Pelosi and AOC aka Bernie - with due recognition of course to Saul Alinsky and his disciples.
Edited: Oh, wait…you were directing that at Biden?
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