Father James Altman: You cannot be Catholic & a Democrat. Period

[fide]

It’s unfortunate that some who advocate strongly on the side of the unborn aren’t interested in building any sort of consensus or, indeed, hearing what anyone else has to say, and seem to always end up condemning anyone who expresses a slightly different view. It’s especially unfortunate when they condemn people who actually agree with them that abortion is an evil, just because those people make the “mistake” of saying that they also care about those already born and living in poor conditions on this earth.

Instead of bonding over the care you have in common, we get disparaging statements referencing Nazis and polite debates. Those sorts of remarks are not persuasive, not logical, not kind, and solve nothing.

To the extent that you include me in your description, I plead guilty as charged. I am convinced, at this point of my life, that there IS NO “consensus” - there is no compromise - there is no middle ground between light and darkness, nor between good and evil, nor between God and Mammon, nor between righteousness and sin. There is a radical choice, that can be / will be costly in this world, but when made rightly, rewarded in the eternal life to come.

Yes, there are mixtures in this world - unnatural mixtures that cannot stand, that must fall.

Mk 3:24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Mk 3:25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.

The most deadly falsehood perpetrated to the innocent, those seeking to grow in the spiritual life, is that God does not expect people to be “perfect” - so, “do the best you can” - look for the middle ground - enjoy this world and don’t offend God too much, and you’ll be fine! No, God is clear:
Therefore, be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.

That baby cannot be “compromised”. He/She cannot be half aborted and half loved into a full life. He / She cannot be torn in two and half handed over to planned parenthood for a body-parts auction, half put up for adoption by a loving pro-life family. That baby will live or will die at the hands of a corrupt and heartless culture far, far distant from the Kingdom of God.

James 1:7 For that person must not suppose that a double-minded (Gk δίψυχος -
dipsuchos - literally two-souled) man, unstable in all his ways, will receive anything from the Lord.

 

[TULIPed]

The most deadly falsehood perpetrated to the innocent, those seeking to grow in the spiritual life, is that God does not expect people to be “perfect” - so, “do the best you can” - look for the middle ground - enjoy this world and don’t offend God too much, and you’ll be fine! No, God is clear:
Therefore, be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.

For the record - I am in violent agreement with you that abortion is an abomination.

Voting is easy though, no? It costs me nothing (thankfully).

How much am I doing that’s really hard for poor (in spirit and money) kids and parents? Not nearly enough. Perhaps you are though. Maybe you’re reverse tithing (giving away 90% of your income and living on 10%). Maybe you’ve adopted kids. Maybe you’re finding other ways to spend time with and coach or teach these folks. Maybe you’re perfect in the giving of your time, talent and treasure.

Not me. Thus - as tempting as it is - I’ll refrain from stone throwing. Perhaps instead I’ll head over to the church today and spend some time at the food bank…Nah - I’ll go to the range and hit some golf balls…

(I shall now return to the area marked “Cast Out” reserved for Calvinists (it’s very lonely over here) )

 

[christofirst]

How do you respond to this, @fide ? Another thread here is about the Church’s current prohibition (inadmissible, not to be allowed or tolerated) of the death penalty. Setting aside questions of guilt and innocence, or arguments based on history or equivalence, we can I hope agree that at this time the Church does not allow either abortion or capital punishment.

Yet, many Republicans, Catholics included, continue to support and direct the carrying out of the death penalty. How do they excuse this violation of Church teaching? Many simply disagree with the Church’s present teaching prohibiting capital punishment, using a variety of arguments to make their case. Others, politicians in particular, say they are carrying out the will of the people. Perhaps they are personally opposed, but the death penalty is currently allowed by civil law and it is their duty to follow the law, though apparently not necessarily to make any attempts to overturn that law.

As far as outright disobedience to a Church prohibition is concerned, how are these Catholic Republicans any different from the Catholic Democrats who are pro-choice, or Catholics who support pro-choice candidates? Assuming there are Catholics who are following the teaching of the Church in being against the death penalty and yet continue to vote for Republicans for other reasons, how is this different from a Catholic who votes for a Democrat not because of that candidate’s pro-choice stance but for other reasons?

 

[Sarcelle]

Can’t we agree the need to STOP the killing of the innocent is more important and pressing than bettering the lifestyles of the poor and marginalized who are not being treated justly, in many cases, but are NOT being murdered at will by their mothers and doctors?

You can first halt abortion but you shouldn’t stop there.

What is wrong with working to both stop abortion and helping the poor?

Support the Solidarity party, which acknowledges both the right to life and the well being of the poor.

We should stop the monopoly of the two party system.

Democrats and Republicans are more alike than you think.

Both serve different sets of the elite 1%. The American people are just sheep to be sheared in both their views.

 

[christofirst]

Here is the statement decreed by Pope Francis when he officially included the prohibition of the death penalty in the Catechism:

“Recourse to the death penalty on the part of legitimate authority, following a fair trial, was long considered an appropriate response to the gravity of certain crimes and an acceptable, albeit extreme means of safeguarding the common good. Today, however, there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of serious crimes. In addition, a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state. Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption. Consequently, the church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person, and she works for its abolition worldwide.”

Pardon me if this comes across as offensive, but attempts to diminish, disregard or reject this doctrine sounds like something a cafeteria Catholic might do, which is the same charge leveled at Catholics who vote for pro-choice candidates.

 

[fide]

My response is, that calls for a different thread.

 

[fide]

BTW, christofirst, I hope that your attempt to change the subject is implicitly a confession that you have no argument that can defend the radically pro-abortion ideology of the Dems, not to mention their other horrid anti-Christian beliefs in the area of morals and even human nature, male and female. This election demands prudence: seeing the options, choosing the best available, and so doing what we can to slowly, gradually move to correct the works of the evil one among men, and so move closer to His Kingdom.

This election demands action, because the Dems are now revealing their “long game” and it is horrific indeed. They want to remake this country into something unrecognizable today: a country of, by and for Big Government, namely Them, Who alone defines right and wrong, Who alone can tell you who you are and why you are and how you will act in this world of Theirs. Dictatorial Communism on steroids, done as “it ought to be done, finally!”

 

[BornInMarch]

I wish these attempts to push others out of the church would end. When Father Altman says stuff like this the Catholics who are in the democratic party aren’t going to think “I guess I’ll become a Republican”, they’re more likely to think “Since the Church doesn’t want me then I guess I’ll stop going”.

Instead we should follow Pope Francis’ example and try to cast a wide net. Bring people in.

 

[whatistrue]

namely Them, Who alone defines right and wrong, Who alone can tell you who you are and why you are and how you will act in this world of Theirs

Now where else have I seen that attitude recently?

 

[fide]

Instead we should follow Pope Francis’ example and try to cast a wide net. Bring people in.

How about trying Truth and trusting God for the results? There’s a radical thought!

 

[BornInMarch]

How about trying Truth and trusting God for the results? There’s a radical thought!

I am.

On one side we have the Pope who is eating with sinners affirming God’s love for them, and on the other side we have traditionalists who want to shun sinners and chase them out of the church. Which of those is more in line with Christ’s example?

 

[christofirst]

My only argument was, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander when it comes to trying to condemn Catholics who ultimately decide to vote for candidates who hold positions which are against the teachings of the Church, such as abortion or the death penalty.

You know that I’m against this kind of condemnation. I and others have pointed out how it’s wrong, and the reasons why it’s wrong in this thread.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

death penalty is currently allowed by civil law and it is their duty to follow the law, though apparently not necessarily to make any attempts to overturn that law.

Since the 1970s there have 1,516 death penalty executions and almost 60 million abortions.

Priorities.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

they’re more likely to think “Since the Church doesn’t want me then I guess I’ll stop going”.

It is because the Church wants them and wants them for eternity that these messages are important.

It is their choice to walk away or not. People walked away from Jesus when He walked the earth and leaving the Church is walking away from Him today.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Since the 1970s there have 1,516 death penalty executions and almost 60 million abortions.

Unlawful killing is unlawful killing.

If you’re going to say people are not Christian for doing xyz, you have to attack all aspects of xyz. Keep that same energy.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Unlawful killing is unlawful killing.

I agree though, the most innocent in these situations is NOT those executed for horrible crimes and made life choices but the innocent in the womb deprived of any choice AT ALL.

Keep that same energy.

Agree to a point. You must prioritize those in the most danger

 

[Julius_Caesar]

the most innocent in these situations is NOT those executed for horrible crimes and made life choices but the innocent in the womb deprived of any choice AT ALL.

And there are certainly those who have been executed or on death row who were innocent as well.

Agree to a point. You must prioritize those in the most danger

Life is sacred to God. He doesn’t weigh life.

 

[fide]

On one side we have the Pope who is eating with sinners affirming God’s love for them, and on the other side we have traditionalists who want to shun sinners and chase them out of the church. Which of those is more in line with Christ’s example?

How many of the these sinful men did Jesus pander to, and dance around their duplicity - how many of the “Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!” - (Read Mt. 23:1-26!!!).

How many of those did Jesus chase down after they left HIM to plan for His demise, to apologize for His straightforward language, and plead with them, “Please come back, have a seat, and let me pander to your hypocrisy!”

To a woman caught in sin, in adultery, He said,

John 8:10 Jesus looked up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
John 8:11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again."

Do Not Sin Again. We are called to holiness, and to the perfection of charity! We are not called to lukewarm milk toast “Christianity” that is ready literally “to cast out the baby with the bathwater.” That is, to sacrifice children on the altar of “the bigger picture”, to what? To keep the pew count up?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Are you seriously saying that 1,516 executions of those who committed horrible crimes is on the same priority of 60 million abortions of innocent people who weren’t even given a chance to live??

I hope not.

We can obey Pope Francis and his teaching on the death penalty but we first must prioritize and help those in the absolute most danger who have absolutely no way of helping themselves. They have no way to get a lawyer or even petition the governor to help them. No courts, no jury trial. They’re just killed.

It’s up to us to help the most vulnerable because yes, life is sacred to God!

 

[fide]

Unlawful killing is unlawful killing.

If you’re going to say people are not Christian for doing xyz, you have to attack all aspects of xyz. Keep that same energy.

According to God’s Law, unlawful killing is killing of the innocent. This applies to the horror of abortion, NOT to the social laws governing punishment due to capital offenses. For the guilty, punishment is due in justice, justice appropriate to the offense.