Feminism is infiltrating every aspect of society

[JSmitty2005]

Kendy:

I think whjat most feminist resent are these cookie-cutter suffocating boxes that some people want to put women in.

Would you like to elaborate on the “cookie-cutter suffocating boxes” remark?

I certainly resented all the “girls are supposed to be X,Y, and Z” that my mother tried to impose on me my whole life.

I see that your position is not so much based on “experience” but rather is a retaliation against your mother and childhood.

I didn’t want to be man; I just wanted to be myself.

That’s great. We all want to be ourselves. But we have to be careful with our “wants.” We can only be ourselves by doing God’s will and not our own.

So, another thing that all feminists would probably would agree on is that it’s tragic that a quarter of women have at some point resented being female. I think you would to.

Yes, I agree. But I think that feminism is more to blame for this by putting masculine desires in the minds of young girls and our society for not glorifying real womanhood to the extent that it warrants. I have to ask, do you have any comments on my essay? Have you even read it?

 

[john_ennis]

Kendy:

Feminist, whether in the academy or not, do not agree on many of the issues that you have brought up. Difference feminism is an equally prominent part of feminist discourse.

Kendy
Kendy

I might have stated more precisely, “A particular brand of feminism,” which hold those views about there being no distinct difference between the sexes with regard to their tendencies and roles.

I must disagree with you about the beliefs of those in academia. Too many hours in discussion with my fellow teachers, aspiring teachers, and teachers of teachers. At least in the education field, the tendency is to believe that all sex roles are social constructs.

peace

 

[JSmitty2005]

john ennis:

in the education field, the tendency is to believe that all sex roles are social constructs.

You’re absolutely right. I’ve been told that countless times in my psychology classes.

 

[Kendy]

JSmitty2005:

Would you like to elaborate on the “cookie-cutter suffocating boxes” remark?

Well, an example of this would be girls should not play sports, girls should not be opinionated, mothers should not have career.

JSmitty2005:

I see that your position is not really based on much “experience” other than a retaliation against your childhood.

You have no way of knowing that. I suspect I have studied this issue as much as you have. I have certainly read the major feminists works. I went to a womam’s college for goodness sake. But certainly, my childhood prompted a desire for feminist alternatives. I was a feminist before I had word of the word.

JSmitty2005:

That’s great. We all want to be ourselves. But we have to be careful with our “wants.” We can only be ourselves by doing God’s will and not our own.

No disagreement there. I just don’t agree with you on what God’s will is.

JSmitty2005:

Yes, I agree. But I think that feminism is more to blame for this by putting masculine desires in the minds of young girls.

Or maybe, they are responding to what has been a male dominated society, which privileges the accomplishments, desires, and strengths of men.

One of my favorite novels (although I don’t agree with everything the heroine does) is Kate Chopin’s “The Awakening.” It’s about this 19th century woman who realizes that her whole life has been scripted for her from day one. She eventually commits suicide upon realizing that she can only be two things, a Victorian housewifge, attending proper tea parties and being secluded in her house, or she can be a weird, artist social outcast. She didn’t want to be anything of those things. In fact, she didn’t know what she wanted since she had never been asked to think about. It was already decide for her when she was born and when she was of age, her father found her a husband and that’s what she was.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

john ennis:

I might have stated more precisely, “A particular brand of feminism,” which hold those views about there being no distinct difference between the sexes with regard to their tendencies and roles.

I must disagree with you about the beliefs of those in academia. Too many hours in discussion with my fellow teachers, aspiring teachers, and teachers of teachers. At least in the education field, the tendency is to believe that all sex roles are social constructs.

peace

What views about sex roles would you prefer to see brought into the field of education? Please, be specific. Are there specific ways that would like to see girls taught, for example?

Kendy

 

[JSmitty2005]

Kendy:

Or maybe, they are responding to what has been a male dominated society, which privileges the accomplishments, desires, and strengths of men.

You can’t make this claim today. Women are glorified for being the first to do just about anything.

One of my favorite novels (although I don’t agree with everything the heroine does) is Kate Chopin’s “The Awakening.” It’s about this 19th century woman who realizes that her whole life has been scripted for her from day one. She eventually commits suicide upon realizing that she can only be two things, a Victorian housewifge, attending proper tea parties and being secluded in her house, or she can be a weird, artist social outcast. She didn’t want to be anything of those things. In fact, she didn’t know what she wanted since she had never been asked to think about. It was already decide for her when she was born and when she was of age, her father found her a husband and that’s what she was.

Sorry, but that doesn’t hold much weight with me. Novels often times have an agenda and being that they are fictitious can be used as propaganda. I’ll ask you again, what say you of my essay? In the meantime, I’m hopping in the shower because I need to go get a Chesterton book for my essay. I need to have it revised and finished soon to enter in this contest.

 

[Kendy]

JSmitty2005:

You can’t make this claim today. Women are glorified for being the first to do just about anything.

Of course, women are glorified to be the first. We have been permitted to do much. So, when a woman gets to do something, it’s a big deal. Liberia and Chile electing their first woman president is big deal because for centuries woman were told they were to weak or that they simply lacked the intellectual ability to fulfill these roles.

JSmitty2005:

Sorry, but that doesn’t hold much weight with me. Novels often times have an agenda and being that they are fictitious can be used as propaganda. I’ll ask you again, what say you of my essay?

Of course, the novel has an agenda. Is that suprising? Most fiction does.

The agenda was to show what it is like to be a Victorian housewife. BTW, Kate Chopin was ostracized for her work. People were outraged that women could want something other than the one role they had been assigned. Let’s not forget George Eliot wrote her novels using a man’s name so that her work would not be hindered.

Will you post you essay again?

Kendy

 

[john_ennis]

Kendy:

I was just being silly.

BTW, please respond to my post to John Ennis. I am particularly curious to hear your response to the study that 25% of women have wished they were male at some point in their life. By the way, only 6% of men had ever wished they were female.

Kendy

I don’t doubt it at all. The data seem to show, then, that women are more likely to see being a male as somehow being advantageous, whether simply by nature or in the context of living in this society.

Their perception may be accurate or not. Either way, though, it has no bearing on whether or not men and women do have traits that tend to make them more fit for particular roles or callings.

Peace.
John

BTW, from everything I’ve been taught in school, I’d consider being female to be a disadvantage, too. It is always stated or implied that girls are discriminated against in the classroom. I have found the claims to be ideologically-driven. Never is it pointed out that men die younger, commit suicide more often, are more likely to be born with defects such as mental retardation, are more likely to die of heart attacks, have been traditionally considered failures if they couldn’t provide for their families, and more.

And as far as the classroom goes, boys are disciplined more harshly (they tend to deserve it), are more likely to drop out, and are less likely to go to college.

Not keeping score–that’s not my point. I’m only describing what’s never said, when educators get on their soap boxes about our patriarchical, oppressive society.

 

[Kendy]

john ennis:

I don’t doubt it at all. The data seem to show, then, that women are more likely to see being a male as somehow being advantageous, whether simply by nature or in the context of living in this society.

Their perception may be accurate or not. Either way, though, it has no bearing on whether or not men and women do have traits that tend to make them more fit for particular roles or callings.

Peace.
John

BTW, from everything I’ve been taught in school, I’d consider being female to be a disadvantage, too. It is always stated or implied that girls are discriminated against in the classroom. I have found the claims to be ideologically-driven. Never is it pointed out that men die younger, commit suicide more often, are more likely to be born with defects such as mental retardation, are more likely to die of heart attacks, have been traditionally considered failures if they couldn’t provide for their families, and more.

Not keeping score–that’s not my point. I’m only describing what’s never said, when educators get on their soap boxes about our patriarchical, oppressive society.

I don’t know what you guys learned in school, but I really wasn’t exposed to feminism till college. A little bit in high school, but not to make a point, but to study history.

You are right that pointing out that women are envious of men doesn’t prove that women and men don’t have roles. However, it is certainly well worth discussing why women feel this way. Certainly, the feminist movement would not have been successful if millions of women were not dissatisfied with their roles in life. Sometimes, people speak like it was simply 10 angry women who changed their world. Certainly, there were leaders, but there was also grassroots support.

Kendy

 

[john_ennis]

Kendy:

What views about sex roles would you prefer to see brought into the field of education? Please, be specific. Are there specific ways that would like to see girls taught, for example?

Kendy

No Kendy, you misunderstand me. I’m talking about what is taught on this subject to students of both sexes, not how boys and girls are taught.

Every teacher attempts to teach students in the way they understand best, whatever their sex. Not my point. (Although most experienced teachers will tell you that their one-to-one techinique tends to be different with boys than with girls.

peace

 

[Kendy]

john ennis:

I
BTW, from everything I’ve been taught in school, I’d consider being female to be a disadvantage, too. It is always stated or implied that girls are discriminated against in the classroom. I have found the claims to be ideologically-driven. Never is it pointed out that men die younger, commit suicide more often, are more likely to be born with defects such as mental retardation, are more likely to die of heart attacks, have been traditionally considered failures if they couldn’t provide for their families, and more.

BTW, I want to add that I grew up in Haiti, which is about 50 years behind the US in many ways so it’s a great to see what life was life before the feminist movement. I was pretty dissatisfied with what I was told a woman should be, and I didn’t have any feminist around telling me that I was oppressed. But I did spend my life hearing girls can’t do X,Y,Z. By the time I was 9 years old, I began to wonder, “Well, what can I do?”

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

john ennis:

No Kendy, you misunderstand me. I’m talking about what is taught on this subject to students of both sexes, not how boys and girls are taught.

Every teacher attempts to teach students in the way they understand best, whatever their sex. Not my point. (Although most experienced teachers will tell you that their one-to-one techinique tends to be different with boys than with girls.

peace

What would you prefer they teach?

Kendy

 

[john_ennis]

Kendy:

Certainly, the feminist movement would not have been successful if millions of women were not dissatisfied with their roles in life. Sometimes, people speak like it was simply 10 angry women who changed their world. Certainly, there were leaders, but there was also grassroots support.

Kendy

oy ve! Of course, you’re right. There was enough oppression and disrespect of the sex to create this demand. The radical wing we speak of, though, has turned it into a mutation of what it largely was: it was about equal rights and respect. Now you hear criticism of women who really believe women are better nurturers than men. You hear of women angry because they’ve been told that their dignity comes from pursuing a career, and they’ve discovered too late that this does not fulfill them and never could have.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Kendy:

Will you post you essay again?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=87385

Read it twice before responding and read it carefully. It will probably anger you the first time through, but take a breather and read it again. lol

 

[john_ennis]

Kendy:

What would you prefer they teach?

Kendy

A loaded question, too be sure. Let’s start with what they shouldn’t be teaching: they shouldn’t be teaching that, since distinct, traditional sex roles have largely been* supported, even imposed* by our society (which is largely true), that means that they are artificial and would not exist if not for this imposition. It’s lousy logic, and as I said, is ideologically-based.

[While I’m thinking of it, this is more overtly and invariably taught in colleges, as you said. I think the attitude is pushed in high school, too, judging from my students’ comments, but I don’t have first-hand knowledge.]

What should be taught? Since this isn’t an issue of stark objective facts as in math and science, fair discussions about what may be true, and what appears to be true, regarding the nature of the sexes, should take place. They shouldn’t be hostile to–indeed, they should even propose–the idea that humans (like virtually every mammal in the animal kingdom) may naturally be meant to fill certain roles depending on their sex.

peace.

 

[john_ennis]

Ttfn!

 

[Kristopher]

Dear Reader:

Feminism infiltrates many parts of society, abortion epitomizes this as it epitomizes feminism, liberty over reproduction. I see no problem with feminism infiltrating all aspects of society; though, both the horror and the tragedy of abortion as the epitome of feminism should be what all regard as the deepest shame of our nation.

Within the Catholic Church women always have been liberated to a greater extent than women under other varieties of hierarchical structures. To argue women are designed only for reproduction denies that God created people to love God, and He is jealous about it. Marriage is both a contract and a sacrament for making families; however, some men, and some women are sterile without any interventions of any sort. The sadness of this situation and the suffering nonetheless are given opportunities to love children belonging to others: orphans, those given-up for adoption, etc.

I am not one among the ignoramuses who regard women to be at the same level of those born into slavery in America that regard women to be animals, but I do regard women to have a place in the world different than what men possess–feminism always meant dealing with the opposite sex in a far more civil, in a far more educated, in a far more humane manner than the stupidity of religious zealots who demean woman and man and therefore, God’s creation by forcing women into a subservient role, when obviously the two are subservient to each other.

Feminism should infiltrate every aspect of society–women need not receive the same pay for the same occupation as men, if they can fulfill the duties as men, but because they have been hired for the position and the position warrants a person to be paid equally irregardless of gender–theft opposes this.

Most sincerely,

Kristopher

P.S. Feminism supports families; I see nothing in Feminism as a whole, which ever contradicted a woman’s biological function in conjunction with a man’s for reproduction to occur–in anycase, do you use the term “lesbianism” in a derogatory manner, and does this accurately reflect those teachings regarding homosexuality in the Cat. of the Cath. Church (CCC)? (Humor: Why should I oppose women, lesbians or others, burning bras: this might have been a better topic for this thread.)

 

[Kendy]

john ennis:

A loaded question, too be sure. Let’s start with what they shouldn’t be teaching: they shouldn’t be teaching that, since distinct, traditional sex roles have largely been* supported, even imposed* by our society (which is largely true), that means that they are artificial and would not exist if not for this imposition. It’s lousy logic, and as I said, is ideologically-based.

[While I’m thinking of it, this is more overtly and invariably taught in colleges, as you said. I think the attitude is pushed in high school, too, judging from my students’ comments, but I don’t have first-hand knowledge.]

What should be taught? Since this isn’t an issue of stark objective facts as in math and science, fair discussions about what may be true, and what appears to be true, regarding the nature of the sexes, should take place. They shouldn’t be hostile to–indeed, they should even propose–the idea that humans (like virtually every mammal in the animal kingdom) may naturally be meant to fill certain roles depending on their sex.

peace.

Well, as long as the science on this is still inconclusive. It might be best to simply present students with the body of research and theories in the area and let them decide.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=87385

Read it twice before responding and read it carefully. It will probably anger you the first time through, but take a breather and read it again. lol

I am going to respond to a few points you made here and there.

First, I hardly think the mid-20th century, when they were lynching black people in America and gasing jews in Germany could be rightfully described as tranquil. Your nostalgia for a mythic past is evident throughout the essay.

Second, women don’t have power because they raise children. Women have power of their children, but that power is extremely limited …specifically to their children. One’s power is measured by how many people you have influence over. Thus, while my mom may have more power over me, Condi Rice has more power than her because she has power over millions. Also, one of the ways that women are disempowered by being unemployed is they lack financial autonomy. In societies where men exclusively control money, they also control women.

However, none of this matters because it is not the end of Christian woman to pursue power nor is it her primary end to persue financial security since the Lord watches over all of us.

Yet, feminists are not alone in this pursuit of power…our society is. Feminist simply put their spin on it.

As for differences, you are right that there are discernable differences between men and women. It is impossible to know right now how much nature or how much nature in involved. Yet, we can make statements about averages. On average, women are more nurturing… and on average men are more adventurous. However, that you can make such statements does not mean that you can dictate what a particular person should be like. Averages are simply what happens by pulling everyone to the middle (taking the mean) and no one has an obligation to obey the mean.

Lastly, as I said before, the feminists movement was influential because women were simply dissatisfied with the one choice society offered them (two, if you are catholic). And you can’t ignore millions of unhappy women. While careers may not leave you happy in itself, it can certainly help when combined with things, like faith and family. On the other hand, never getting to pursue a childhood dream or passion may leave one quite unhappy.

You are wrong to claim that women are unhappy working. Millions of women love their jobs. But more importantly, millions are women are happier, whether they are SAHMs or working moms, simply because we now respect them enough to ask, “What do you want to be when you grow up?”

Kendy

 

[john_ennis]

Kristopher:

Dear Reader:

I do regard women to have a place in the world different than what men possess–feminism always meant dealing with the opposite sex in a far more civil, in a far more educated, in a far more humane manner than the stupidity of religious zealots who demean woman and man and therefore, God’s creation by forcing women into a subservient role, when obviously the two are subservient to each other.

Once again, there’s a loud and prominant brand of feminism that is terribly different from this.
Surely you’re aware that the powerful political “feminist” movement which is backed by NOW and by Planned Parenthood does *anything *but deal with the issue in a civil/educated/humane manner. Abortion, without any limits, is practically a sacrament in their religion. The statement, “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle,” wasn’t uttered by the head of NOW by accident.
Such feminism, which is not simply about the equal worth and respect for women which you and I endorse, is not pro-family either. Don’t kid yourself. They don’t like women choosing to be SAHMs, they don’t want adopted children to be guaranteed a mother and father (they endorse gay adoptions), and they would never support a law that guarantees that you would be notified if your fifteen-year-old daughter were getting an abortion.

Peace.