Florida's new wild west gun law

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Church Militant:
there is no joy to the good soul in harming another…
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And yet we do glorify conflict. Here, on his forum, we often here about our brave boys in conflict. We, as has been done throughout history, give honour to warfare. We have to; because the hard cold reality is a very different matter.
Church Militant:
but there is much less joy and a great deal more shame if I allow an innocent to suffer because I do nothing. I, personally, could not live with that.
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Pax vobiscum,

I share a great affinity for your words. I myself have achieved a dan grade in Go-ju ryu and conitinue to train and teach in Wing Chun Keun gung fu. I have had cause to intervene in an agressive situation on several occasions, but I have always done so with my Christian sensibility at the forefront of my action. You must know the age old question- is there no first strike in Karate?

I base my martial study on the philosophy espoused by the great Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido who said
The divine beauty
Of heaven and earth!
All creation,
Members of
One family.

Morihei understood that continued fighting - with others, with ourselves, and with the environment - will ruin the earth. “The world will continue to change dramatically, but fighting and war can destroy us utterly. What we need now are techniques of harmony, not those of contention. The Art of Peace is required, not the Art of War.” Morihei taught the Art of Peace as a creative mind-body discipline, as a practical means of handling aggression, and as a way of life that fosters fearlessness, wisdom, love, and friendship. He interpreted the Art of Peace in the broadest possible sense and believed that its principles of reconciliation, harmony, cooperation, and empathy could be applied bravely to all the challenges we face in life - in personal relationships, as we interact with society, at work and in business, when dealing with nature. Everyone can be a warrior for peace- I believe that our attitude as Catholics- should be an inclination always towards peace.

Peace be with you all my brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
Tantum ergo:
Fighting Fat, I agree that it must be a “last resort”. However, picture an elderly lady on a Florida street being accosted by a mugger. She CAN’T flee easily, she is old, probably in poor health. The mugger has some sort of weapon even if it only appears to be his hands. She is in fear of at least some harm, since he is physically threatening her. She pulls out a small legal pistol, warns the thug to back off, but he lunges, she shoots to disable (knee), but he stumbles and she winds up killing him.
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Actually, and this came straight from a deputy sherriff’s mouth, you should never shoot to disable a person, if it comes down to deadly force, you should put two in the torso and one in the head.
  1. then there is only one side of the story.
  2. then the low life bastard/bastardette can’t sue you, which you know they would win in today’s messed up legal system.
I fully agree, and my philosophy is, if you don’t want to get shot, don’t be a criminal…
 
Church Militant:
As for guns…I could care less. I’m a 14 year veteran of serious self defense martial arts and won’t carry a gun. (They’re okay…just really loud and messy… 😉
Pax vobiscum,
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Loud and messy, just how I like it. All you have to do is cycle the chamber of a 12 guage pump action shotgun and most home burglers will scramble for the closest exit. You have then preserved your life and his life and are keeping in the moral tradition of the Church.
 
Catholicvegan said:
“Ye-yaw! Ya’ll get to have lots and lots of guns! How do we stop gun violence? Give 'em more guns!”

Classic conservative logic. This is a flawed bill, and gun-packing Republicans love to push gun un-control laws. Now, you don’t have to wait to shoot. Just hide your gun and pull it out. All those street brawls between kids, crazy adults at sports games, and just people looking to ‘defend’ themselves? Hardly. Gun-control is extremely important.

P.S. Lance, you support Bush, and you are telling someone to “worry about whats going on on your side of the ocean”? Define hypocrisy and then get back to me.
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Well, since the “hug the violent criminal who is about to rape your wife and sing kumbaya” approach hasn’t worked, I think this is a good next step. BTW, when Hitler wanted to begin enacting his national socialistic policies, first, he made all gun owners register their firearms, then, he had the government take them all. An armed citizenry not only helps reduce crime, it is also a pretty good deterent for an overly ambitious government.
 
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Brendan:
CV,

I have a question for you. Would you attack someone you knew was armed. Do you know anyone would would deliberately attack someone they knew was armed?

As has been shown, every state that enacted concealed carry had a reduction in crime.

Every jurisdiction that ever enacted stricter gun control had an increase in crime.

Do you see why? Criminals will always be armed. Making a gun requires less technical skill than making crack cocaine, and can be done using equiment available at any Home Depot by anyone who ever paid attention in HS shop class.

If you tossed every gun in the world into the sun and shut down every gun company, I can guarantee that criminals will have new ones within a week. And there would be no one to stop them.

heck, I’d probably make a new one myself, just to defend my family.
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I promise give up my gun as soon as all of the violent criminals promise to give up theirs.
 
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Brendan:
So if you thought it likely that you would be shot, how likely would you be to attempt an attack?

In Switzerland, every male of military age is issued an assault rifle and ammunition. They are required to keep readily accessable at all times. They have the lowest rate of burglary of any nation in Europe, 1/4 that of the UK.

Do you think there might be a correlation?
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Hasn’t England’s burglary rate skyrocketed since law-abiding citizens have been banned from owning firearms? From what I’ve read, criminals virtually walk into homes in broad daylight and take what they want. Then, of course, there are always the axes…Right?
 
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Apologia100:
However, the threat of violence is a strong deterent. .
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The UK has an unarmed police force and no death penalty. It also has a lower crime rate than the USA. The absence of a culture of violence makes its occurence less frequent.

The Catholic Church has never encouraged a culture of violence. It does echo the words of the Apostle do not overcome evil with evil. Overcome evil with good.
 
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Matt25:
The UK has an unarmed police force and no death penalty. It also has a lower crime rate than the USA. The absence of a culture of violence makes its occurence less frequent.

The Catholic Church has never encouraged a culture of violence. It does echo the words of the Apostle do not overcome evil with evil. Overcome evil with good.
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The murder rate may be lower but isn’t the per capita burglary rate around 75%? There is no absence of violence in the British culture. Just the absence of law abiding citizens’ right to defend themselves against unwanted home invasions. In fact, wasn’t there a civilized gent who took an axe to another gent in broad daylight just the other day?
 
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condan:
The murder rate may be lower but isn’t the per capita burglary rate around 75%? There is no absence of violence in the British culture. Just the absence of law abiding citizens’ right to defend themselves against unwanted home invasions. In fact, wasn’t there a civilized gent who took an axe to another gent in broad daylight just the other day?
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It isn’t just Great Britain. The violent crime rate in all of Europe is lower than the US. I lived in Sicily for 3 years, and the violent crime rate was much lower than here, but the incidents of break-ins, purse snatchings, and racketeering was incredibly high. Same goes for mainland Italy, France, Greece, and Spain.
 
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Brendan:
In Switzerland, every male of military age is issued an assault rifle and ammunition. They are required to keep readily accessable at all times. They have the lowest rate of burglary of any nation in Europe, 1/4 that of the UK.

Do you think there might be a correlation?
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None whatsoever. Switzerland has a much lower rate of crime in virtually every category than the UK. It is a more law abiding society. Does the possesion of guns in the house deter violence at soccer games?

What Switzerland and other European countries with high rates of gun ownership and low rates of gun crime lack is a culture of violence and the cult of the cowboy.

The presence of the death penalty in violent countries like Iran, China and the USA and its absence in peaceful countries like Switzerland suggest that the threat of death is not the most effective way of dealing with violent crime.

Even if it was is the way of Jesus really honoured by shooting dead an anarmed man and claiming that he was an assailant?
 
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fix:
All killing is not murder. That is why the CCC says what is says. JPII was not in favor of those in charge of innocent life doing nothing while others get murdered. He had police protecting him with guns.
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The CCC allows the legitimate civil authority to use lethal force. Individual citizens do not constitute the legitimate civil authority. Incidentally if Americans are right to wield weapons when their house is invaded does that mean Iraqi’s have the same right when their country is invaded?

Somebody did shoot Pope John Paul. He forgave him. That is because John Paul was a moral giant and his saintly example stands in marked contrast to those on this thread who defend gun law. Have none of you ever read the Sermon on the Mount?
 
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Matt25:
The CCC allows the legitimate civil authority to use lethal force. Individual citizens do not constitute the legitimate civil authority. Incidentally if Americans are right to wield weapons when their house is invaded does that mean Iraqi’s have the same right when their country is invaded?

Somebody did shoot Pope John Paul. He forgave him. That is because John Paul was a moral giant and his saintly example stands in marked contrast to those on this thread who defend gun law. Have none of you ever read the Sermon on the Mount?
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Please do us a favor and provide the references where only legal civil authorities are allowed to carry weapons.
 
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Brendan:
Criminals will always be armed.
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Not in the UK or Canada. Gun crime exists but not on anything like the same scale. Why would a criminal carry a gun if no one is likely to shoot at him? Why would a citizen carry a gun if criminals were extraordinarily unlikely to have one?
 
Rob's Wife:
hmmm, seems to me that folks across the ocean think us americans just whip out guns like candy bars…

I for one am all for guns! I am not for idiots with guns. And no that is not the same thing. Anyone who thinks to bring a gun into their home should have at least 12 training sessions and keep up their training at least every 6 months, in my opinion. Training will not keep you from being scared, but it sure can help eliminate cases of “twitch triggers” and “damned stupid head shot himself in the foot” .

Although I’m well aware there are some people who are a little too trigger happy in the world - most of us gun owners are extremely aware of the value of life and would avoid killing if given the choice.

Now as a woman, I’ll tell you that this is my thought on the supossedly non-threatening burgular scenario.

It’s 2 am and I hear a noise from the dining room. Sounds like the backdoor being messed with?? I pick up my cell phone from the nightstand, dial 911 and say I’m going to see what this noise comming from the back is… and think how silly I’m going to feel explaining this to my husband when he gets back into town next week… then I hear it! The backdoor’s wood has split, someone’s broke the handle! I get my gun from — and walk to the bedroom door.

In my room behind me is the baby, in the 3 rooms across from me are 6 other sleeping little ones. This isn’t a ritzy neighborhood - we have nothing for this guy to use! I make a split second choice: if he enters the hallway, I’m going to shoot first and ask questions later. Then I see 2 black shadows turn to enter the hallway… I scream “RUN!” “GO AWAY!” as I go down the hallway to get between them and the first children’s bedroom door and then … I shoot! I shoot again! Are they dead? Are they on the run? Are they mad and comming at me?

I can wait for the police to grab them getting my t.v. - but my kids…my own person… this precious baby in my bed??? No way am I giving him even a moments chance to hurt them! And if I have to choose, it’ll be over his dead body rather than mine. My goal is going to be to stop him. Period. It just so happens that dead does that very well. Shoot him in the leg/arm you say? Let me tell you something about drugs - some drugs can get their system pumping so wild he may not even feel the bullet, much less stop beating the c**p out of me. Not to mention, you have to be a hell of a crack shot to get a moving target in the arm/leg in a moment of chaos while in survivor mode.

Now, tell me Fighting Fat, would you say I was wrong to assume the worst here? After all, their vary presence in my home is sinister to say the least! Most of these cases do not promote themselves to a dialog of “Hello there sirs! You must have the wrong house? No? Well, I guess if the electronics, jewlery, and cash is all you want it’s okay. I’ll just go tie my self up while you pack up. Oh and please be quiet could you? I wouldn’t want the children woken up. Thank you. Such nice young men you are. why, it’s just been a pleasure having you steal my property! I may not call it in at all! What?! You want rape me and kill any poor child that might wake up and see?!! Why that’s just horrible, if you don’t change your mind this instant - why, why… I’ll just have to shoot you in the shoulder!”

I am not prone to the “shoot first and let God sort them” attitude, but common sense says you should be able to defend yourself, family, and property - blind trust that help will arrive in the nick of time is just stupid. That a fickle government will always seek the common good of it’s people has been historicly proven wrong too many times to count. And the less able to defend themselves those people are - the more brutish the govenments were in their treatments.

If those men turn and run out of the house, I’ll be weeping glad to see them gone and thrilled to let the police go get them and have the law run it’s course (which I would hope to be considerable and deterring punishment!). But if not, I’m not going to just sit and watch my family suffer until some one else decides it’s worth the trouble to help.

Just another perspective from a just another american gal…
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Excellent post.
 
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Scott_Lafrance:
An armed citizenry not only helps reduce crime, it is also a pretty good deterent for an overly ambitious government.
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Most of Iraq’s male citizens possesed weapons during the Saddam regime. Ditto for Afghan men under the Taliban. Is that the kind of role model for the USA that you really look towards?
 
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condan:
Hasn’t England’s burglary rate skyrocketed since law-abiding citizens have been banned from owning firearms? From what I’ve read, criminals virtually walk into homes in broad daylight and take what they want. Then, of course, there are always the axes…Right?
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Burglary rate are falling in the UK.
 
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Matt25:
Most of Iraq’s male citizens possesed weapons during the Saddam regime. Ditto for Afghan men under the Taliban. Is that the kind of role model for the USA that you really look towards?
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Sure, why not, since you seem adept at comparing apples and oranges. Europe, Persia, and America have three distinct cultures. Trying to fit the European cultural schema to the American way of life just doesn’t work.
 
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Scott_Lafrance:
Please do us a favor and provide the references where only legal civil authorities are allowed to carry weapons.
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[2265](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2265.htm’)😉 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

Point 2264 says " Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:"

A lethal blow is not the normal description of a gunshot wound. Individuals can defend themselves by blows. The civil power has the right to use arms. At any rate that is what Catholics believe.
 
Matt25 said:
**[2265](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2265.htm’);)**For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms t
…
. The civil power has the right to use arms. At any rate that is what Catholics believe.
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Matt,

In a democracy, the people ARE the civil power. Civil Power resides in the people alone, who may delegate, in their name, the use of civil power to others.
 
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