Florida's new wild west gun law

[Scott_Lafrance]

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

Point 2264 says " Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:"

A lethal blow is not the normal description of a gunshot wound. Individuals can defend themselves by blows. The civil power has the right to use arms. At any rate that is what Catholics believe.

MISQUOTE. Article 2265 states that legitimate civil authorities have the right to possess firearms, but does not say that they are the only ones who have the right. It would be the same as saying that civil authorities have the right to own cars and then implying that they are the only ones who have the right to own cars. You are reading something into the article that doesn’t exist.

A gunshot wound can be considered a lethal blow. Do you expect that people are going to carry around shillelagh for self-defense? The CCC does not mention specifics on what is allowed to cause this “lethal blow”.

 

[Brendan]

Matt25:

Not in the UK or Canada. Gun crime exists but not on anything like the same scale. Why would a criminal carry a gun if no one is likely to shoot at him?

So can you explain why there is gun crime at all in the UK?

Why would a citizen carry a gun if criminals were extraordinarily unlikely to have one?

How would a elderly person or a woman defend themselves from a male attacker with a knife, chain or bat?

Are the chances of a criminal having a gun in the UK greater or lesser than they were 10 years ago?

 

[Brendan]

FightingFat:

. I am frankly shocked that some have posted on this thread about a Patron Saint of gun-handlers, and priests who tote weapons.

Huh?

You are upset because we told you there are Saints who used guns and priests who carry them?

You would have prefered we didn’t post those facts?

 

[Brendan]

Matt25:

The Catholic Church has never encouraged a culture of violence. It does echo the words of the Apostle do not overcome evil with evil. Overcome evil with good.

You falsely assume that violence is objectively evil. Read about how God sent Israel against the Canannites and Ammorites.

God ordered violence, but God does not order evil. Therefore violence is not objectively evil; but the judicious use of violence may bring about both good and peace.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Didn’t Jesus say something about bringing, not peace, but a sword (since guns didn’t exist in 33 A.D.)?

Didn’t he WHIP moneychangers from the temple?

When the authorities were coming to arrest him, asking for “Jesus the Nazarene”, and He answered “I am He”, didn’t they FALL TO THE GROUND?

Looks like righteous anger and use of force CAN be morally OK in certain circumstances. . .

 

[Brendan]

Tantum ergo:

Didn’t Jesus say something about bringing, not peace, but a sword (since guns didn’t exist in 33 A.D.)?

.

Not only that, when He said the Apostles out to preach, He told them to buy arms

Luke 22

35
He said to them, “When I sent you forth without a money bag or a sack or sandals, were you in need of anything?” “No, nothing,” they replied.
36
He said to them, 12 "But now he who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and he who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.

 

[fix]

Matt25:

The CCC allows the legitimate civil authority to use lethal force. Individual citizens do not constitute the legitimate civil authority. Incidentally if Americans are right to wield weapons when their house is invaded does that mean Iraqi’s have the same right when their country is invaded?

Somebody did shoot Pope John Paul. He forgave him. That is because John Paul was a moral giant and his saintly example stands in marked contrast to those on this thread who defend gun law. Have none of you ever read the Sermon on the Mount?

**2264 **Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Not only that–thanks, Brendan! excellent point:

He said to them, “Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you. Not as the world gives peace do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled. . .(and to finish the quote, here’s a real kicker, words very dear to the heart of Pope John Paul II). . .BE NOT AFRAID.”

 

[De_Maria]

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

Point 2264 says " Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:"

A lethal blow is not the normal description of a gunshot wound. Individuals can defend themselves by blows. The civil power has the right to use arms. At any rate that is what Catholics believe.

This doesn’t mean that only a government may hold weapons. In the United States the civilian population is legitimately authorized to bear arms by the Constitution. Legitimate defense of our own life is our right according to Catholic teaching and our duty when it comes to the life of others.

I am all for self defense and defense of innocent lives whether using weapons or not. But I maintain that prayer is the best offense we have. Jesus said, “Pray continually.” If we all relied on God as our shield, soon we would no longer need guns.

The Pope’s New Springtime is here as was evident during the Pope’s funeral. Catholics should carry on his example and be a light to the world, the salt of the earth. Put all this nonesense about kill or be killed away. It is no longer a tooth for a tooth and eye for an eye. Jesus said, “be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” And He also said, “Love your enemies”. He wanted us to strive for the higher road.

As for me and my family, we will rely on the Lord.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[fix]

De Maria:

This doesn’t mean that only a government may hold weapons. In the United States the civilian population is legitimately authorized to bear arms by the Constitution. Legitimate defense of our own life is our right according to Catholic teaching and our duty when it comes to the life of others.

I am all for self defense and defense of innocent lives whether using weapons or not. But I maintain that prayer is the best offense we have. Jesus said, “Pray continually.” If we all relied on God as our shield, soon we would no longer need guns.

The Pope’s New Springtime is here as was evident during the Pope’s funeral. Catholics should carry on his example and be a light to the world, the salt of the earth. Put all this nonesense about kill or be killed away. It is no longer a tooth for a tooth and eye for an eye. Jesus said, “be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” And He also said, “Love your enemies”. He wanted us to strive for the higher road.

As for me and my family, we will rely on the Lord.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Defending innocent life is not the same as a tooth for a tooth. Those in charge of defending innocent life, be they a head of state or head of a household, bear the responsibility and pacifism is not a choice.

 

[Lance]

FightingFat:

Sometimes I find myself distressed by the attitudes of posters here. I have to say that this has been the most distressing series of posts I have experienced on CA. I can’t reconcile this pro-gun attitude with my own faith. I am frankly shocked that some have posted on this thread about a Patron Saint of gun-handlers, and priests who tote weapons.

I think there is an argument for self defense, wouldn’t argue that, but I cannot believe that meeting violence with violence is a way forward for humanity. Violence on this sort of level is not something I have had cause to seriously contemplate. I have always been brought up that it is wrong to kill someone- to take a life. I do not think, ‘given these circumstances I would feel justified in taking a life…’ I just think that I would not. If I were killed as a consequence of that decision I will hope that I meet my heavenly Father with a sound conscience. I find myself uncomfortable and deeply saddened that we have such incredibly different views and yet are all members of the one Church.

You have a right to your opinion and to not defend yourself. You have no right to force your opinion on others or in any way restrict their right to defend themselves. If you don’t like the laws of the state of Florida move there and lobby/vote to change them. On the other hand you could just stay away from Florida.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Interestingly, the “eye for an eye” law was actually considered more just than the majority of laws practiced in ancient societies. Some of those societies (and some later ones–in Britain in the early 19th century one could still be hanged or transported for life for stealing something worth at most a couple of bucks in today’s money) had “death” as the penalty for, among other things, crossing the king’s shadow.

 

[FightingFat]

Brendan:

Not only that, when He said the Apostles out to preach, He told them to buy arms

Luke 22

Ahhhh! I can’t bear it! You wrongly pick up one or two phrases in the Bible you don’t understand and use them to say Jesus wanted you to shoot someone who transgresses against you? Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us Brendan- not shoot them because you are justified in doing so! What is actually going on in the passage of Luke? The disciples (like you) take Jesus’ remarks literally and incorrectly. They note that they have two swords, but Jesus cuts off the discussion. Something is not right, but it is too late to discuss it. As the arrest will show, they have misunderstood. They draw swords then, but Jesus stops their defense in its tracks. He is not telling them to buy swords to wield in physical battle. They will have to provide for themselves and fend for themselves, but not through the shedding of blood. They are being drawn into a great cosmic struggle, and they must fight with spiritual swords and resources. The purchase of swords serves only to picture this coming battle. This fight requires special weapons (Eph 6:10-18).

Moreover, I would refer you to Matthew 5:38-42

You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

And onwards- 43-48

You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

And countless other passages where our Lord asks us to be kind, loving and compassionate.

 

[FightingFat]

Matt25:

The CCC allows the legitimate civil authority to use lethal force. Individual citizens do not constitute the legitimate civil authority. Incidentally if Americans are right to wield weapons when their house is invaded does that mean Iraqi’s have the same right when their country is invaded?

Somebody did shoot Pope John Paul. He forgave him. That is because John Paul was a moral giant and his saintly example stands in marked contrast to those on this thread who defend gun law. Have none of you ever read the Sermon on the Mount?

:clapping:

 

[FightingFat]

Brendan:

Huh?

You are upset because we told you there are Saints who used guns and priests who carry them?

You would have prefered we didn’t post those facts?

No, it’s up to you what you post Brendan, I was just proffering my opinion of these so called ‘facts’. If a patron saint of guns was appointed I would be shocked and horrified, as shocked and horrified as I am at some of the attitudes being displayed here, which are blatently anti-life.

 

[FightingFat]

Lance:

You have a right to your opinion and to not defend yourself. You have no right to force your opinion on others or in any way restrict their right to defend themselves. If you don’t like the laws of the state of Florida move there and lobby/vote to change them. On the other hand you could just stay away from Florida.

Absolutely, however, I’m not bemoaning Florida, I am discussing whether it is right for a Catholic to bear a gun, a weapon, designed for one express purpose- TO KILL!

Further more Lance, this is a discussion forum, designed so that we can DISCUSS things. This may mean (and here’s a public health warning for you friend) you may not always agree with things everyone else says. Doesn’t mean they can’t say them!

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

FightingFat:

Absolutely, however, I’m not bemoaning Florida, I am discussing whether it is right for a Catholic to bear a gun, a weapon, designed for one express purpose- TO KILL!

Further more Lance, this is a discussion forum, designed so that we can DISCUSS things. This may mean (and here’s a public health warning for you friend) you may not always agree with things everyone else says. Doesn’t mean they can’t say them!

I don’t carry a gun to kill, I carry it to deter. My intention is never to kill an assailant, and I train frequently at the range to place my shots in non-lethal areas. I also train to finish the job if that is the only last resort. Why to continue to assume that because a Catholic carries a concealed weapon that he has a itch to pull it out and start blasting away at anyone who looks at him funny?

 

[vern_humphrey]

All the moaning and groaning overlooks one simple fact – allowing ordinary people to carry guns for self defense SAVES lives.

As we have show, the violent crime rate goes DOWN when people are allowed to carry weapons. All the blubberoing and whining in the world won’t change that – when people can arm themselves, lives are saved.

 

[Lance]

vern humphrey:

All the moaning and groaning overlooks one simple fact – allowing ordinary people to carry guns for self defense SAVES lives.

As we have show, the violent crime rate goes DOWN when people are allowed to carry weapons. All the blubberoing and whining in the world won’t change that – when people can arm themselves, lives are saved.

I could not agree with you more. Not one of the anti-gun people has said anything about my original post that stated that carjacking in Florida had go down since people are allowed to carry a gun there.

 

[Brendan]

FightingFat:

Absolutely, however, I’m not bemoaning Florida, I am discussing whether it is right for a Catholic to bear a gun, a weapon, designed for one express purpose- TO KILL!

I pointed out that St. Thomas Aquinas already address that question in the Summa Theoligica.

)

And just as it is lawful for them to have recourse to the sword in defending that common weal against internal disturbances, when they punish evil-doers, according to the words of the Apostle (Rm. 13:4): “He beareth not the sword in vain: for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil”; (ST II, 40)

Is it your claim that a Doctor of the Church is wrong?