For German bishops mercy comes at a price, critics charge

[guanophore]

…i guess this is what the Church looks like when it becomes undermined by socialism.

Actually this is just a carry over from pre-reformation Imperial Papacy. Before the revolt, these taxes all went to the CC, most of them to Rome. One of the main reasons the German princes supported Luther was financial. They wanted German $ to stay in Germany.

 

[ProVobis]

Actually this is just a carry over from pre-reformation Imperial Papacy. Before the revolt, these taxes all went to the CC, most of them to Rome. One of the main reasons the German princes supported Luther was financial. They wanted German $ to stay in Germany.

Yes.

But, to be fair, I wonder how many around the world would rather see their contributions stay within their diocese or even within their own parishes.

 

[TEPO]

Actually this is just a carry over from pre-reformation Imperial Papacy. Before the revolt, these taxes all went to the CC, most of them to Rome. One of the main reasons the German princes supported Luther was financial. They wanted German $ to stay in Germany.

…And we know what happened to the ‘what-were’ Catholics then when politics and money extended further into different Canonical disputes, where all of a sudden, a giant rift submerged.

 

[TEPO]

…The two largest cultural pulling blocks for Catholicism, have historically been Germanic and Roman… Well, and Jewish of course.

…So there could still be some contention on what goes on at the Vatican, as far as laws and traditions go. Thats my point, and it seems all-too-common that money and Canon law are typically involved.

 

[TEPO]

…The two largest cultural pulling blocks for Catholicism, have historically been Germanic and Roman… Well, and Jewish of course.

…So there could still be some contention on what goes on at the Vatican, as far as laws and traditions go. Thats my point, and it seems all-too-common that money and Canon law are typically involved.

Even with some of the smaller cultural pulling blocks, such as with Greek culture to the East and the culture of the Isles to the West, nothing matches the Roman - Germanic one, ever since the sack of Rome.

 

[TEPO]

…The two largest cultural pulling blocks for Catholicism, have historically been Germanic and Roman… Well, and Jewish of course.

…So there could still be some contention on what goes on at the Vatican, as far as laws and traditions go. Thats my point, and it seems all-too-common that money and Canon law are typically involved.

I wonder if the Slavic and Hellenic cultures go through anything similar in the Orthodox world.

They have Canon laws too, right…? If so, do they ever interpret things differently? Also, I wonder if there have been any monetary disputes out East, and how they use their money. Do they build hospitals and feed the poor? Have Bishops there ever disagreed on how money gets spent?

 

[CrossofChrist]

Does the Church allow the German Bishops to withhold the Sacraments because of the Church tax?

See the post above yours.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

See the post above yours.

Quoting something like this without someone versed in Canon Law to see if it can be applied in this situation doesn’t bolster your claims at all.

To withhold the sacraments because people don’t want pay this Church tax is blasphemous. Pure and simple.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Quoting something like this without someone versed in Canon Law to see if it can be applied in this situation doesn’t bolster your claims at all.

FWIW, it is claimed that the Congregation for Bishops approved their decision.

And here’s a Canon lawyer who claims that we should look into it more carefully, reflect on it some more: catholicnewsagency.com/news/canon-lawyer-german-church-tax-dispute-needs-more-reflection/

To withhold the sacraments because people don’t want pay this Church tax is blasphemous. Pure and simple.

So basically it was just a loaded question.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

FWIW, it is claimed that the Congregation for Bishops approved their decision.

And here’s a Canon lawyer who claims that we should look into it more carefully, reflect on it some more: catholicnewsagency.com/news/canon-lawyer-german-church-tax-dispute-needs-more-reflection/

So basically it was just a loaded question.

Ed Peters credentials in Canon Law are impeccable and yet in that article he didn’t say that what the German Bishops were in keeping with Catholic teaching but didn’t condemn them either.

While we are obliged to support the Church financially and I have never said otherwise and the fact that the Bishops didn’t institute this tax as it was something strictly civil, where my objection is the withholding of the Sacraments because you don’t want to pay a tax.

 

[boar2roar]

Just to be clear this may have further implications… maybe this isn’t such a positive thing. Maybe it creates a situation in which Germany has an undue amount of influence in the Church for its population and rate of decline. Maybe not, but maybe too.

Of course it does they have empty churches but are unbelievably rich. The German bishops have tons of cash so they don’t care about attendance and they feel that they can throw their weight around because of their money. They can tell African Cardinals to shut up, dictate the terms of a synod, and refuse to accept your catholic unless you give them $$.

 

[ProVobis]

Of course it does they have empty churches but are unbelievably rich. The German bishops have tons of cash so they don’t care about attendance and they feel that they can throw their weight around because of their money. They can tell African Cardinals to shut up, dictate the terms of a synod, and refuse to accept your catholic unless you give them $$.

FWIW, re: Peter’s Pence, the annual collection taken up for the Pope:

At present, this collection is taken each year on the Sunday closest to 29 June, the Solemnity of both Saint Peter and Saint Paul, according to the Roman Church. According to the report, in 2007, donations amounted to $79,837,843. In 2006, it was $101,900,192. The United States was the biggest donor, giving some 28% of the total, followed by Italy, Germany, Spain, France, Ireland, Brazil and South Korea. In 2008, donations totaled $75.8 million, $82,529,417 in 2009, $67,704,416.41 in 2010 and $69,711,722.76 in 2011.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter%27s_Pence

 

[guanophore]

…if anyone doesnt believe that the Catholic Church has the obligation to save as many souls as possible, then they should research the way Jesus and the Apostles went about evangelizing and baptizing just as many souls as they possibly could.

ISTM that Jesus supported rendering unto Ceasar what was his.

There is nothing illegal about the Church tax. Catholics are fortunate to be included, since it started out to support Lutheran Churches.

All countries with National Churches support them this way.

A person who denies they are Catholic have lied on a government document and publicly denied their faith just to avoid compliance with the civil law. This kind of disobedience to the authorities is not a matter of refusing a grave moral evil.

 

[TEPO]

ISTM that Jesus supported rendering unto Ceasar what was his.

There is nothing illegal about the Church tax. Catholics are fortunate to be included, since it started out to support Lutheran Churches.

All countries with National Churches support them this way.

A person who denies they are Catholic have lied on a government document and publicly denied their faith **just to avoid compliance **with the civil law. This kind of disobedience to the authorities is not a matter of refusing a grave moral evil.

Jesus also supported rendering unto God what is His, which includes the souls of His children. We cannot claim that it is a mortal sin for Catholics to check the “none” box on their civil tax forms because we cannot “assume” that their motives are NOT a matter of refusing a grave moral evil -in their opinion.

The culpability of sin is established on an individual basis, so it isn’t like Christ to lay down blanket excommunications on people who may not have knowingly committed sin.

…if ones conscience tells them that their basic human right to privacy has been violated, then they may in fact not be guilty of any sin at all, also, they may feel that the Catholic Social teaching of subsidiarity has been unjustly violated -so they chose the closest thing that represents their privacy -the “none” box, in regards information.

We can never claim to know the hearts of men, and we cannot judge souls based on what we assume.

 

[TEPO]

…it is more important to render unto God those who are His, than it is to deny Catholics the sacraments to make a public statement. There’s no need to be “radical” in this case.

 

[TEPO]

A person who denies they are Catholic have lied on a government document and publicly denied their faith just to avoid compliance with the civil law. This kind of disobedience to the authorities is not a matter of refusing a grave moral evil.

…also, we are “assuming” that people have lied on their tax forms. What if they left that line blank, and the government just does nothing with it.?

 

[TEPO]

Let me explain my background… I work on highvoltage powerlines for a living, and from the time i was an apprentice, the one thing that always stuck in my mind was: never assume anything… So i dont.

If Joe Shmoe tells me he is going to drive down the road and de-energize the line, and i climb up the pole and bare hand energized wire because I “assumed” he did what he said he was going to do, and did it properly, then my death would be my fault for not checking voltage myself. Therefore, “assuming” is a life or death decision in some cases, and isnt worth the consequences.

In the same way, a Church that assumes the unconfirmed sin of a soul, and then excommunicates that soul from the Church, without checking for themselves first, may accidentally destroy that souls eternal salvation. The same cannot be said for a freemason, who upon initiation, takes a vow and places non-Catholic values as core beliefs.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Ed Peters credentials in Canon Law are impeccable and yet in that article he didn’t say that what the German Bishops were in keeping with Catholic teaching but didn’t condemn them either.

That was the point of bringing it up.

and the fact that the Bishops didn’t institute this tax as it was something strictly civil, where my objection is the withholding of the Sacraments because you don’t want to pay a tax.

The bishops clearly support it though, so at the very least not paying the tax is public disobedience to your bishop.

I’m obviously not a canon lawyer, but I wonder if the money from the Church tax could be considered an “ecclesiastical good”.

Can. 1377 A person who alienates ecclesiastical goods without the prescribed permission is to be punished with a just penalty.

It seems this would also apply:

*Can. 1371 The following are to be punished with a just penalty:

2/ a person who otherwise does not obey a legitimate precept or prohibition of the Apostolic See, an ordinary, or a superior and who persists in disobedience after a warning.*

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

That was the point of bringing it up.

The bishops clearly support it though, so at the very least not paying the tax is public disobedience to your bishop.

I’m obviously not a canon lawyer, but I wonder if the money from the Church tax could be considered an “ecclesiastical good”.

Can. 1377 A person who alienates ecclesiastical goods without the prescribed permission is to be punished with a just penalty.

It seems this would also apply:

*Can. 1371 The following are to be punished with a just penalty:

2/ a person who otherwise does not obey a legitimate precept or prohibition of the Apostolic See, an ordinary, or a superior and who persists in disobedience after a warning.*

Respectfully Cross of Christ, you nor I are experts in Canon Law. Since we can both agree that Ed Peters is, and that he didn’t quote those Canons, I would have to say that they aren’t applicable to this situation.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Respectfully Cross of Christ, you nor I are experts in Canon Law. Since we can both agree that Ed Peters is, and that he didn’t quote those Canons, I would have to say that they aren’t applicable to this situation.

Well, then we might as well stop talking about this since all discussion will be pointless. At the present it’s best to trust in the judgment of the bishops since they are the ones who have received the power to bind and loose and the fullness of Holy Orders.