Forgive me for asking . .

[bethanysamuel]

I think it’s much easier to forgive people when you see them through God’s eyes; he sees us all as equal children of his, precious and created in his image and likeness, but prone to sin because of the fall.

If we really genuinely are coming at it from the right angle,i.e. doing God’s will, if we are ready,we will automatically want to help the person, but this is something that can take decades.

If we are really hurt by someone, its human nature to be angry and to seek revenge,to get even, to “win” or whatever. But if we see the offender through God’s eyes, we see a person who has sinned. We see the vice they fell prey to [greed,lust, etc] and we isolate the act to being a sin. A sin may not be an action; it may be a lack of action, or a word said.

To really thirst for the Kingdom of Heaven means being attracted to all goodness and all kindness and being determined to reject Satan who wants us to hate each other and walk around full of resentments and bitterness.

Whether we express our forgiveness externally by for example buying some flowers for the lady who spread a false rumour about you or hugging the person who just hit you is, again optional.

But if we make a kind gesture to show we really are leaving the past behind, we also must not let the other person think that its acceptable to spresd rumours/ hit people.

Only you can decide what is best under the circumstances.

The epitome of fogiveness for me is Jesus begging his Father to forgive his enemies as he hung on the cross. Thats pure love.

 

[davidv]

David:

Forgive me for failing to mention how good it is to hear from you, again. I’ve enjoyed our thoughtful and respectful dialogs in the past.

Likewise.

As you probably remember, I find analogies helpful when I’m struggling with understanding something. I also find it helpful to define what the words we are using mean. Let’s use this definition of forgiveness:

forgiveness = pardoning a person

I would agree with this definition. Would you agree that not everyone has the the same authority to pardon. E.g., a private citizen cannot pardon anyone for a criminal offense. This is reserved for the governors of the states.

Now let’s apply this definition in this analogy: Consider a Catholic judge presiding over a murder case where the accused is found guilty of 3rd degree murder. Would you or I sincerely say that she is judging the crimes, but not the criminal? No, I don’t think so, for she is judging the criminal BY her crimes! The Catholic judge must make a judgment call as to whether the one found guilty deserves the death penalty, a life sentence, or a suspended sentence. Whatever the judgment, it will be the guilty party (rather than the act of murder) who serves the time in prison or who is put to death!



Therefore, it is the murder she judges, not merely the murderer’s actions.

It seems to me that this conclusion redefines what question was being judged. I submit that the question posed to the judge was “Was 3rd degree murder committed and is the one charged with that crime the one that actually did it?” This is an event at a specific period of time. There is no judgement of other aspect of the defendent’s life.

As I view your analogy, it actually supports my original statement that our worldly judgements must be judgements of the actions of, not the being, of another, and then only when we have authority to judge them.

So too, when you, or I, or an authority of the Church judges a sinner, isn’t it the sinner we judge, not merely her sins? For doesn’t she (not her sins) receive the consequences for her actions from us?

Based on the above, I cannot agree. Jesus is the only authority who can judge the whole person. We as individuals can only judge the actions we see.

I mean, this seems to be exactly what Saint Paul the Apostle was advising the Corinthians to do:
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? … I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you.

(1 Corinthians 5:1-2,9-12)
Here we see him recommending that the Corinthians judge those Christians who commit sexually immoral acts. He is saying that they should judge the sinner (not merely the sin) for it is the sinner with whom they are to refuse to associate any longer. The sinner, not the sin, experiences the consequences for his actions. That’s NOT forgiving in the sense of pardoning. That is holding the person accountable and liable for his actions, which is the same as judging the person. That’s what I’m thinking, David, but what do you think?

I don’t see anything in these verses that indicates that Paul is directing anything other than the judgement of actions, eventhough the consequence of the judgement affects the whole person. It appears that you may be erroneously equating judgement (guilt) with justice (consequence)?

 

[spockrates]

I think it’s much easier to forgive people when you see them through God’s eyes; he sees us all as equal children of his, precious and created in his image and likeness, but prone to sin because of the fall.

If we really genuinely are coming at it from the right angle,i.e. doing God’s will, if we are ready,we will automatically want to help the person, but this is something that can take decades.

If we are really hurt by someone, its human nature to be angry and to seek revenge,to get even, to “win” or whatever. But if we see the offender through God’s eyes, we see a person who has sinned. We see the vice they fell prey to [greed,lust, etc] and we isolate the act to being a sin. A sin may not be an action; it may be a lack of action, or a word said.

To really thirst for the Kingdom of Heaven means being attracted to all goodness and all kindness and being determined to reject Satan who wants us to hate each other and walk around full of resentments and bitterness.

Whether we express our forgiveness externally by for example buying some flowers for the lady who spread a false rumour about you or hugging the person who just hit you is, again optional.

But if we make a kind gesture to show we really are leaving the past behind, we also must not let the other person think that its acceptable to spresd rumours/ hit people.

Only you can decide what is best under the circumstances.

The epitome of fogiveness for me is Jesus begging his Father to forgive his enemies as he hung on the cross. Thats pure love.

Thank you, Beth. So would you say that forgiving is an internal emotion (insofar as it is not holding a grudge) and external action (insofar as it is not seeking revenge)? Is that all that a person must do to forgive?

 

[bethanysamuel]

To my mind that would be it, yes. All in all combining love of God, neighbour and self.

 

[spockrates]

Likewise.

I would agree with this definition. Would you agree that not everyone has the the same authority to pardon. E.g., a private citizen cannot pardon anyone for a criminal offense. This is reserved for the governors of the states.

Yes.



However, there are ways that you or I, though we have no such authority, can pardon a person, I believe. Consider the common definition of the word:

par·don
 
[pahr-dn]
–noun

1. kind indulgence, as in forgiveness of an offense or discourtesy or in tolerance of a distraction or inconvenience: I beg your pardon, but which way is Spruce Street?
2. Law .
   
   a. a release from the penalty of an offense; a remission of penalty, as by a governor.
   b. the document by which such remission is declared.
   [*]forgiveness of a serious offense or offender.
   [*]Obsolete . a papal indulgence.
   ​

I’m thinking that definition (2a) can apply to personal forgiveness. That is, it can if we release the person from the penalty of a personal offense against us. Consider a wife who cheats on her husband. The possible penalty for such a betrayal might be divorce. The husband who pardons the cheating wife might release her from this penalty and remain married to her. That would be one way to forgive, if forgiving is indeed pardoning, don’t you think?

It seems to me that this conclusion redefines what question was being judged. I submit that the question posed to the judge was “Was 3rd degree murder committed and is the one charged with that crime the one that actually did it?” This is an event at a specific period of time. There is no judgement of other aspect of the defendent’s life.

Judges often are not bound to any set number of years for one found guilty of a crime. For example, a jury might decide that a corporation is guilty of breaking some law and order the corporation to pay 10 million dollars. The judge, thinking the jury’s decision too harsh, might pass a more merciful sentence of just one dollar. In the case of murder, the judge often has the discretion of sentencing a person to a few years, or to life in prison, or to death by lethal injection. He might also suspend the sentence altogether, giving the offender a full pardon.

As I view your analogy, it actually supports my original statement that our worldly judgements must be judgements of the actions of, not the being, of another, and then only when we have authority to judge them.

Based on the above, I cannot agree. Jesus is the only authority who can judge the whole person. We as individuals can only judge the actions we see.

I don’t see anything in these verses that indicates that Paul is directing anything other than the judgement of actions, eventhough the consequence of the judgement affects the whole person. It appears that you may be erroneously equating judgement (guilt) with justice (consequence)?

Perhaps you are right, but I still wonder: I’m thinking that

judging = punishing

So how can it be true that we punish a person’s sins without punishing the person? In the case of a murder trial, does the judge pass judgment on (or punish) the act of murder, or does he pass judgment on (or punish) the murderer? Does the act itself receive the death penalty, while the person who committed the act get off scott free? I’m thinking that when we judge someone, we punish the person, not the sin.

 

[TimothyH]

It’s an important question to me, personally. You see, Jesus tells me:

“But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”

(Matthew 6:15)

I have cause for concern. For if I don’t know what forgiveness is, then how shall I know how to forgive? and if I don’t know how to forgive, then how will I be able to forgive? and if I’m unable to forgive, then how will I have any chance of being forgiven?

This is an extremely importan question which you have posed and have brought up something important in the passage from Matthew 6:15. We pray that passage at every Mass in the Lord’s Prayer…

***Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. ***

Before I began to understand the beauty of Catholic doctrine on sin and forgiveness, I asked some friends if God’s forgiveness was conditional. After all, do we not ask God to forgive us “As” we have forgiven others? Does not “as” mean “in like manner?” Don’t we ask for God to forgive us in the same way that we forgive others? The question was immediately dismissed by my friends who stated that God’s forgiveness is unconditional.

How then do we reconcile God’s unconditional forgiveness with the Lords Prayer and Matthew 6:15? Is God unwilling to forgive us? The answer came while I was reading Jesus’ words about divorce, a subject which hits home for me.

He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. (Matthew 19:8)

When we don’t forgive, we harden our own hearts. Our hard hearts become impervious to God’s forgiveness. God’s forgiveness cannot enter a heart which is hardened itself against forgiveness. So when we forgive others, we soften our heart; we make it pliable, porous and permeable. Gradually, as we learn to not hold grudges, as we learn not to demand payment for the wrongs done against us, our hearts will softten and God’s forgiveness can begin to enter ours. Only when we forgive others can God’s forgiveness begin to have an effect on us. Otherwise, God’s forgivenss just dries up on the outside of our hearts like water poured on a piece of hot granite.

And that really hit it for me in terms of what forgiveness really is. It’s not wanting repayment or restitution for the wrongs done against me. When I think about it, I who am so ready to demand reparations for wrongs against me and yet so quick to deny those same reparations to those whom I have wronged, am just as bad.

Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan answered David: “The LORD on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die.” (2 Samuel 12:13)
My sins are really against God anyway and for them I deserve nothing less than eternity in Hell. David understood this and his only response was to write Psalm 51.

So that’s my take on forgiveness. My own forgivenss starts with me forgiving others. And my forgivness of others is really nothing more than not demanding some form of material or emotional repayment for wrongs done against me. That’s it in a nutshell. Forgivenss does not mean that I have to hang around bad people or that I have to let my kids play with their kids. It doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t get punished by God or arrested by the police or put in jail by the courts. It doesn’t mean that I have to let someone who abuses me live in my house. It just means that I will not demand repayment. When someone says something bad against me or wrongs me, I try to say, “OK God, I probably deserved that.”

On my own I’m really no better than they are and have probably done worse. And if I am better than they, it is only because of God’s presence in me, not because of anything I am. True forgivenss therefor, is closely tied with humility.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

By the way Spockrates, I forgive you.

(I just got it. )

-Tim-

 

[spockrates]

To my mind that would be it, yes. All in all combining love of God, neighbour and self.

Sorry, Beth for not responding until now. Took Memorial Day weekend off to spend with the family. Let’s see, forgiveness is

1. 
   *]Not holding a grudge
   *]Not seeking revenge
   
   Sounds good to me. For I cannot see how one can hold a grudge or seek revenge and still sincerely say she has forgiven!
   
   
   
   But I wonder if that it all that forgiving is. What should we say to those who tell us to forgive is to pardon a person? Do we say they are sincere, but sincerely wrong to believe that not holding a person liable for her sin is an act of forgiveness?
   
   

 

[Prophesy]

Sorry, Beth for not responding until now. Took Memorial Day weekend off to spend with the family. Let’s see, forgiveness is

1. 
   *]Not holding a grudge
   *]Not seeking revenge
   
   Sounds good to me. For I cannot see how one can hold a grudge or seek revenge and still sincerely say she has forgiven!
   
   
   
   But I wonder if that it all that forgiving is. What should we say to those who tell us to forgive is to pardon a person? Do we say they are sincere, but sincerely wrong to believe that not holding a person liable for her sin is an act of forgiveness?
   
   

1. 
   Hey Spockrates,
   
   Haven’t seen you for a while. I hope all is well.
   
   -Prophesy

 

[spockrates]

By the way Spockrates, I forgive you.

(I just got it. )

-Tim-

LOL!



Well, some are not so forgiving once I keep asking simple questions. Like Socrates said:

I have, I fear, a tedious way of putting a simple question.

(Theaetetus, 163)

So, let’s say I asked one question too many and someone decided to not forgive me (which, of course, you would never do)! Would you say that the way to not forgive would be to stop trying to answer my questions?

 

[spockrates]

This is an extremely importan question which you have posed and have brought up something important in the passage from Matthew 6:15. We pray that passage at every Mass in the Lord’s Prayer…

***Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. ***

Before I began to understand the beauty of Catholic doctrine on sin and forgiveness, I asked some friends if God’s forgiveness was conditional. After all, do we not ask God to forgive us “As” we have forgiven others? Does not “as” mean “in like manner?” Don’t we ask for God to forgive us in the same way that we forgive others? The question was immediately dismissed by my friends who stated that God’s forgiveness is unconditional.

How then do we reconcile God’s unconditional forgiveness with the Lords Prayer and Matthew 6:15? Is God unwilling to forgive us? The answer came while I was reading Jesus’ words about divorce, a subject which hits home for me.

He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. (Matthew 19:8)

When we don’t forgive, we harden our own hearts. Our hard hearts become impervious to God’s forgiveness. God’s forgiveness cannot enter a heart which is hardened itself against forgiveness. So when we forgive others, we soften our heart; we make it pliable, porous and permeable. Gradually, as we learn to not hold grudges, as we learn not to demand payment for the wrongs done against us, our hearts will softten and God’s forgiveness can begin to enter ours. Only when we forgive others can God’s forgiveness begin to have an effect on us. Otherwise, God’s forgivenss just dries up on the outside of our hearts like water poured on a piece of hot granite.

And that really hit it for me in terms of what forgiveness really is. It’s not wanting repayment or restitution for the wrongs done against me. When I think about it, I who am so ready to demand reparations for wrongs against me and yet so quick to deny those same reparations to those whom I have wronged, am just as bad.

Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan answered David: "The LORD on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die." (2 Samuel 12:13)
My sins are really against God anyway and for them I deserve nothing less than eternity in Hell. David understood this and his only response was to write Psalm 51.

So that’s my take on forgiveness. My own forgivenss starts with me forgiving others. And my forgivness of others is really nothing more than not demanding some form of material or emotional repayment for wrongs done against me. That’s it in a nutshell. Forgivenss does not mean that I have to hang around bad people or that I have to let my kids play with their kids. It doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t get punished by God or arrested by the police or put in jail by the courts. It doesn’t mean that I have to let someone who abuses me live in my house. It just means that I will not demand repayment. When someone says something bad against me or wrongs me, I try to say, “OK God, I probably deserved that.”

On my own I’m really no better than they are and have probably done worse. And if I am better than they, it is only because of God’s presence in me, not because of anything I am. True forgivenss therefor, is closely tied with humility.

-Tim-

Like Robin Hood who in jest called John, Little John, I think that I should call you (with tongue in cheek) Tiny Tim! For there is nothing little about your big ideas! Thanks for sharing them. Extremely insightful.

Let’s consider David’s confession of guilt to God for sleeping with his general’s wife, getting her pregnant, and murdering him to cover up his sin. It is true that God did not put an end to King David’s life, but he did put an end to his sons’ lives–one who died soon after birth, and another who died after betraying him. God’s words appear to say the death of his son was a direct consequence for his sin.

7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’

11 “This is what the LORD says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”

(2 Samuel 12)

Would you say that God Himself did to David what He wants you and me to do to others who sin against us?

 

[spockrates]

Hey Spockrates,

Haven’t seen you for a while. I hope all is well.

-Prophesy

Hi, Prophesy! How are you? Me, I’m still thinking about returning to the Church, but haven’t figured out how to warm my feet enough to get them to take me there! Do you know of any good cures for cold feet?

 

[spockrates]

Considering what everyone had to say, it seems to me that there is not one forgiving, but three:

1. 
   *]**Pacification **of self - or not feeling a grudge, or ceasing to feel angry
   *]**Pity **for the sinner - or showing mercy, or leniency
   *]**Pardoning **- or not holding the person liable or responsible for sins committed against us
   
   Does everyone agree that forgiveness is at least one, and perhaps two, or maybe even all three of these?
   
   

 

[tonyrey]

Thank you, Tony, and welcome to the dialog! What I hear you saying is that forgiveness is:

1. 
   *]Pacification - or rather, a self-pacifying and ceasing to hold a grudge
   *]Pitty - or perhaps mercy, or being lenient by not treating others as harshly as they deserve
   
   Is this what Jesus was asking the Father to do when He prayed this?“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
   
   (Luke 23:34)

1. 
   You’re right because ultimately all evil stems from ignorance. When we harm others we are harming ourselves more because we are making ourselves inhuman while they are victims.
   
   Jesus is the supreme Victim of our sins because He died to free us from our sins. That is the best reason why we should forgive those who have sinned against us.
   
   “Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone…”

 

[tonyrey]

Considering what everyone had to say, it seems to me that there is not one forgiving, but three:

1. 
   *]**Pacification **of self - or not feeling a grudge, or ceasing to feel angry
   *]**Pity **for the sinner - or showing mercy, or leniency
   *]**Pardoning **- or not holding the person liable or responsible for sins committed against us
   
   Does everyone agree that forgiveness is at least one, and perhaps two, or maybe even all three of these?
   
   

1. 
   I agree with the proviso that it is not always possible to overcome a feeling of anger immediately when you have treated very unjustly.

 

[spockrates]

You’re right because ultimately all evil stems from ignorance. When we harm others we are harming ourselves more because we are making ourselves inhuman while they are victims.

Jesus is the supreme Victim of our sins because He died to free us from our sins. That is the best reason why we should forgive those who have sinned against us.

“Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone…”

It’s interesting, isn’t it, that God was the one who came up with the idea of throwing stones at those who committed the serious sin of adultery. Yet, Jesus (who is God) said that the one not guilty should throw the first stone. I wonder what He was saying, exactly. Don’t you? I mean, it’s not like God was changing His mind. Was it? Sleeping with another woman’s husband was still deserving of death in Jesus’ day. Do you think that Jesus, knowing the history of every man ready to stone that woman, knew a little secret about each one? Do you think He knew that they had each, at one time or another, committed adultery themselves?

Then again, maybe not even one man in the angry mob had actually seen the woman commit the death-deserving sin. Maybe the sin of each man was that he knew the guilt of the woman could not be established by the testimony of two or three eyewitnesses, as God demanded?

Hmmm.

 

[spockrates]

I agree with the proviso that it is not always possible to overcome a feeling of anger immediately when you have treated very unjustly.

Agreed, to never feel angry is impossible! but as Jesus said:

"…with God all things are possible.”

(Matthew 19:26)

As more than one person mentioned in this discussion thread, prayer be the key to that kind of supernatural self-pacification!



That being said, there are times when it is appropriate to show anger in the face of great evil. After all, isn’t that what Jesus is doing by calling His enemies a pit of snakes, walking dead, and sons of Satan?

13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

(Matthew 28)

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023&version=NIV1984

Sounds pretty Jesus Christ Superstar angry to me!

 

[tonyrey]

Agreed, to never feel angry is impossible! but as Jesus said:
"…with God all things are possible.”

(Matthew 19:26)As more than one person mentioned in this discussion thread, prayer be the key to that kind of supernatural self-pacification!

That being said, there are times when it is appropriate to show anger in the face of great evil. After all, isn’t that what Jesus is doing by calling His enemies a pit of snakes, walking dead, and sons of Satan? 13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

(Matthew 28)

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023&version=NIV1984Sounds pretty Jesus Christ Superstar angry to me!

http://www.cverbelun.addr.com/JCS.ht266.jpg

The notion of Jesus meek and mild is a travesty of the truth. Imagine being at the Temple when He drove out the traders and moneychangers with an improvised whip!

 

[Prophesy]

Hi, Prophesy! How are you? Me, I’m still thinking about returning to the Church, but haven’t figured out how to warm my feet enough to get them to take me there! Do you know of any good cures for cold feet?

I’m well.

I’d recommend a good pair of socks, but that won’t keep you warm when you jump into the Tiber, you just gotta take the plunge sometime, ya know?

Can’t wait to hear the splash

-Prophesy

 

[spockrates]

I’m well.

I’d recommend a good pair of socks, but that won’t keep you warm when you jump into the Tiber, you just gotta take the plunge sometime, ya know?

Can’t wait to hear the splash

-Prophesy

Glad to hear you are well. I went to mass today for the first time since I was young. I found it fascinating how the scripture reading and hymn and sermon each had an applicable message for me, personally. Perhaps it was (as my Evangelical friends used to tell me) a God thing?