Fr. James Martin

[Anesti33]

Try this logic.

Christ alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Through Christ we reach Heaven.
The Church is the body of Christ and points the way to Truth, Beauty, and Goodness. By remaining in the Church, the faithful attain Heaven.
Fr. Martin is a priest in good standing and a duly-appointed representative of the One True Church. He acts in persona Christi.
Fr. Martin’s rhetoric is designed to lead lost sheep to the Church, by building a bridge to the LGBT community.
If a person traverses this bridge and enters the Church, she will find the way to Truth, Beauty, and Goodness, regardless of what Fr. Martin personally believes or teaches.
By following Christ and the Church, this faithful soul will surely attain Heaven.

It seems logically sound that Fr. Martin must be leading some people to Heaven.
It is a profound insult to LGBT people to say that they are so ignorant of right and wrong that they won’t know Truth when they find Him.

 

[sealabeag]

“Just don’t do it” applies to people (all of us) with sinful inclinations whether homosexual or otherwise, and it is difficult for all of us. The most important thing is that Christ gives us the grace to overcome our sins and our sinful desires. That’s the message that everyone, including people with same sex attraction should be receiving before all else - Jesus loves you and died for you and will give you the grace to be holy.

 

[27lw]

Try this logic.

Christ alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Through Christ we reach Heaven.
The Church is the body of Christ and points the way to Truth, Beauty, and Goodness. By remaining in the Church, the faithful attain Heaven.
Fr. Martin is a priest in good standing and a duly-appointed representative of the One True Church. He acts in persona Christi.
Fr. Martin’s rhetoric is designed to lead lost sheep to the Church, by building a bridge to the LGBT community.
If a person traverses this bridge and enters the Church, she will find the way to Truth, Beauty, and Goodness, regardless of what Fr. Martin personally believes or teaches.
By following Christ and the Church, this faithful soul will surely attain Heaven.

It seems logically sound that Fr. Martin must be leading some people to Heaven.
It is a profound insult to LGBT people to say that they are so ignorant of right and wrong that they won’t know Truth when they find Him.

It seems like a profound insult to LGBTQQ people to say that they are incapable of living chastely.

 

[pnewton]

Christ was very clear.

From Matthew 13

The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Also, it’s not the job of the Church to be “agreeable”.

From 1 Corinthians 9

To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

 

[OraLabora]

It seems like a profound insult to LGBTQQ people to say that they are incapable of living chastely.

It is difficult for anyone to live chastely in this era. It is something that requires effort to master, and that mastery is not likely to happen overnight. Like any difficult task, it requires practice and many failures. There are some by virtue of their natures that can master it quickly, others with strong drives may find it rather more difficult.

Just telling them to “live chastely” without giving them the tools to learn to master their desires, is bound to fail. They need to be in the Church, with spiritual direction and mentors. Using harsh language to keep them out of the Church pretty much guarantees they’ll lever learn to master chastity.

It’s even difficult for many monks living in community, and can take a lifetime to achieve. I know of far too many instances of failure to live chastely in a monastic community. I won’t give details to protect the communities and individuals involved. But they are very real and frequent instances,

If monks struggle with it, then I’m sure the LGBQT do as well, as do unmarried heterosexuals.

 

[27lw]

There’s that old saying “the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak”.
You seem to be saying that special effort needs to be made to entice a particular population into the church. Maybe that is true.
But it seems like you are saying that not only is the flesh weak in the case of LGBTQQ, but the spirit isn’t even willing.

 

[OraLabora]

You seem to be saying that special effort needs to be made to entice a particular population into the church.

No, I’m saying that the Church, through insensitive language, seems to be making an effort to keep them out. Whether inadvertent or not, the result is the same. Few seem willing to engage with the Church.

I can’t say I blame them especially seeing the way the LGBTQ seem to be singled-out here on CAF as being a special (read: worse) class of sinner than the rest of us.

 

[27lw]

So, you’re not going to comment on the other part of the post? That you seem to be making a point that the spirit isn’t even willing in the case of LGBTQQ? Much less the flesh?

 

[OraLabora]

Given the amount of discrimination and hate (including hate crimes up to murder) that the LGBQT have experienced, I’m not surprised that they don’t feel compelled, in most cases, to conform to the teachings of a Church they won’t even set foot in.

 

[sealabeag]

LGBTQ seem to be singled-out here on CAF as being a special (read: worse) class of sinner than the rest of us.

Given the amount of discrimination and hate (including hate crimes up to murder) that the LGBQT have experienced, I’m not surprised that they don’t feel compelled, in most cases, to conform to the teachings of a Church they won’t even set foot in.

I’ve never seen anything like that, do you have an example?
I don’t see the logic here - some people who identify as LGBT face discrimination. Okay, that’s true. What has that got to do with them entering the Church or adhering to it’s teachings? It isn’t the Catholic Church or its members who are discriminating against them, by and large. The Church welcomes everyone. You may not like some of the Church’s teachings, you may not like it’s clear language, but that is a different issue.

 

[Montrose]

No, I’m saying that the Church, through insensitive language, seems to be making an effort to keep them out. Whether inadvertent or not, the result is the same. Few seem willing to engage with the Church.

I can’t say I blame them especially seeing the way the LGBTQ seem to be singled-out here on CAF as being a special (read: worse) class of sinner than the rest of us.

Do the LGBTQ who are approaching the Church accept that homosexual activity is a grave sin?

 

[billsherman]

He’s a bigger heretic than Luther.

Please remove this awful message. @camoderator

 

[OraLabora]

I’ve never seen anything like that, do you have an example?

Because of the insensitive wording of the CCC, and the pronouncements of some of the hierarchy, they see the Catholic Church as just a continuation of the discrimination they face. Here’s an example: Cardinal … called homosexuality a “moral degradation”. Which cardinal? Card. Keith O’Brien, who, ironically, was having active homosexual relationships with his own seminarians and clergy.

Do the LGBTQ who are approaching the Church accept that homosexual activity is a grave sin?

You’ll have to ask them.

He needs to be placed in a monastery, under a vow of silence.

Monasteries are not prisons for miscreant clergy. They are active Catholic communities that get to choose who can be a member of that community. Discernment works both ways.

 

[Mark121359]

OraLabora:

No, I’m saying that the Church, through insensitive language, seems to be making an effort to keep them out. Whether inadvertent or not, the result is the same. Few seem willing to engage with the Church.

I can’t say I blame them especially seeing the way the LGBTQ seem to be singled-out here on CAF as being a special (read: worse) class of sinner than the rest of us.

Do the LGBTQ who are approaching the Church accept that homosexual activity is a grave sin?

Therein lies the rub! But instead, excuses are made that paint the Church as discriminatory and unwelcoming. And quite frankly, I’m rather sick of it. The Church hasn’t changed. She hasn’t suddenly singled out gays with harsh teachings. Rather, the world has changed. And many, many Catholics simply choose to accept the world view. And in so doing, they reject the teachings of the Catholic Church!

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Please remove this awful message. @camoderator

This is the same guy who created a thread saying that if you support Biden he hopes you die. Not the most mentally stable individual I suspect.

 

[Ardent_Fire]

I think I’ve expressed my opinions about Fr. Martin on here before, but I do know in the past I’ve been highly critical of him, though I feel that way about many modern Jesuits to be fair.

All of this said, I do think Catholics that engage with him on social media when disagreeing with him should still treat him with charity and respect, because I see it get pretty ugly. It is okay to be firm in critique why one thinks he’s wrong, but people should be respectful and refrain from name calling and using common slurs about homosexuals, like the f-bombs. The venomous outbursts towards him are just likely going to be ignored. Keep praying for Father Martin.

 

[billsherman]

All of this said, I do think Catholics that engage with him on social media when disagreeing with him should still treat him with charity and respect, because I see it get pretty ugly. It is okay to be firm in critique why one thinks he’s wrong, but people should be respectful and refrain from name calling and using common slurs about homosexuals, like the f-bombs.

It’s hardest to love those with whom with disagree strongest. But Catholics are called to love everyone, even those who wish to kill us (Fr. Martin, of course, wants to do no such thing!).

We need more posts like @Ardent_Fire’s in our world.

 

[sealabeag]

Because of the insensitive wording of the CCC,

I know this has been debated at length already, but it’s worth reiterating: the wording of the Catechism regarding homosexuality (and I assume you mean the phrase “intrinsically disordered”?) is in no way insensitive, it is simply a statement of objective fact. The language is totally neutral. Would stating that adultery between a man and a woman was a sin be considered “insensitive” to those in extra-marital relationships? The phrase “intrinsically disordered” refers to the fact that homosexuality is ordered contrary to natural law. Do you disagree with that fact? Masturbation is also referred to as “intrinsically and gravely disordered” in the Catechism. Is that insensitive to those with a desire to masturbate?

 

[OraLabora]

The Church hasn’t changed.

The Church has however changed language in the past to conform to the times, even to the point of renaming sacraments.

If she can rename sacraments to make them sound more welcoming and comforting, surely she could use more conciliatory language in the CCC with respect to gays.

the wording of the Catechism regarding homosexuality (and I assume you mean the phrase “intrinsically disordered”?) is in no way insensitive, it is simply a statement of objective fact. The language is totally neutral.

And also “acts or grave depravity”. It may have been written with neutral intent. But it is not being received that way by the target audience.

That is a problem.

 

[sealabeag]

And also “acts or grave depravity”. It may have been written with neutral intent. But it is not being received that way by the target audience.

That is a problem.

But they are acts of grave depravity. Whether a person accepts that or not is not the fault of the Church. It is not a problem - if it is not being received that says something about those who are not receiving it, it does not say that the teaching or wording should be changed.
Like I’ve said, for anyone struggling with SSA, the answer is the love and grace of God. Not weakening the truth. That would only hurt souls in the long run.
You never answered my question above - do you accept the fact that homosexual desires or acts are contrary to natural law?