Fr. James Martin

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There’s no point in further discussion. The goal of the Church is to save souls. That means bringing souls into the Church, not scaring them away.

My belief remains that the Church’s language does just that and as such is driving souls away from salvation. IMHO driving souls away is also a grave sin.
 
OraLabora said:
conform to the times
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Bingo! That’s the problem in a nutshell. It isn’t the Catholic Church’s mission to conform to this flawed world. Her mission is to change this flawed world. Truth can’t change. And it can’t be watered down. If one has a problem with a certain Church teaching, the door is always open. Simple as that. To some, this may seem harsh. But you cannot expect her to “soften” her language to suit our frail sensibilities. Her mission is to save souls, not placate them.
 
Why are you opting out of the discussion after I asked you a very simple question? Are homosexual acts contrary to natural law or not? If the truth drives souls away, that is not the fault of truth.
 
sealabeag said:
It isn’t the Catholic Church or its members who are discriminating against them
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Sometimes the members actually do.
sealabeag said:
it does not say that the teaching or wording should be changed.
Like I’ve said, for anyone struggling with SSA, the answer is the love and grace of God.
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If they don’t understand the wording then using more clear words to express the same orthodox teaching is probably a good decision.
 
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VanitasVanitatum said:
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sealabeag:
The words are extremely clear already.
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People are misunderstanding them so it doesn’t appear that way.
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Then that’s entirely on them! I’m of the belief that there’s no misunderstanding them. Rather, many simply choose to reject them!
 
Mark121359 said:
Then that’s entirely on them! I’m of the belief that there’s no misunderstanding them.
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That’s indifference to just leave them to their own devices, if it can help a few sincere souls then it seems alright.
 
Ok, so how would you word it? Take the phrase “intrinsically disordered”. What would you add to that to clarify, what would you remove?
As the poster above said, the reality is that you will find that most people who take exception with that phrase, or with the Church’s language regarding homosexuality, actually reject Church teaching on that issue, not just the language, and want the teaching itself changed.
 
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Here is the precise wording. Now where’s the misunderstanding? Now admittedly, I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer. But that explanation from the CCC below is clear and concise!
Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered , constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
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Mark121359 said:
Now where’s the misunderstanding?
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They think the word disordered means there is something severely wrong with them in a physical or mental sense.
sealabeag said:
As the poster above said, the reality is that you will find that most people who take exception with that phrase, or with the Church’s language regarding homosexuality, actually reject Church teaching on that issue, not just the language, and want the teaching itself changed.
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I know that but I don’t want misunderstandings or misconceptions of the Church to get in the way if it can be helped.
sealabeag said:
Ok, so how would you word it? Take the phrase “intrinsically disordered”. What would you add to that to clarify, what would you remove?
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Disordered could become misordered or not ordered and depravity could become immorality.
 
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VanitasVanitatum said:
Disordered could become misordered or not ordered and depravity could become immorality
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What’s the difference in your mind between disordered and misordered? I’ve never heard the word misordered used before in my life, so I imagine it would create even more confusion. “Not ordered” seems likewise unclear. The acts are depraved, why should we weaken truth? If I am in sin the Church has a duty to tell me the truth. If I am not fully aware of the gravity of the situation, I may not take it seriously enough.
 
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VanitasVanitatum said:
People think of physiological disorder when that’s not what the Catechism says.
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Whether psychological, physiological or otherwise, it is a disorder. So that is ok. The inclination is disordered.
VanitasVanitatum said:
What’s the difference between depravity and immorality?
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I would defer that question to a canon lawyer if I knew one here on the forums (if one reads this please pitch in) but I would say the difference is that there are levels of immorality, just as there are venial and mortal sins. Depravity would, I assume, be considered worse.
 
sealabeag said:
but I would say the difference is that there are levels of immorality, just as there are venial and mortal sins.
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Venial and mortal are the different levels of immorality, I don’t see what function further divisions would be. Plus I never heard that before.
sealabeag said:
Whether psychological, physiological or otherwise, it is a disorder. So that is ok. The inclination is disordered.
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The Church would use the adjective physhological if that’s what it meant.
 
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Not quite, I don’t think. Venial and mortal are the different states of sin. Immorality is a more general term. Depravity is a term referring to something more seriously immoral.
But this kind of discussion shows how important precise language is. Otherwise this kind if confusion happens. Which is why the Church is precise.
 
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VanitasVanitatum said:
The Church would use the adjective physhological if that’s what it meant.
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The point is that whether it is psychological or physiological or otherwise doesn’t really matter. The fact is that it is disordered. So the language is correct.
 
sealabeag said:
The point is that whether it is psychological or physiological or otherwise doesn’t really matter. The fact is that it is disordered. So the language is correct.
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The language is correct but the people don’t interpret it correctly.
 
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VanitasVanitatum said:
They think the word disordered means there is something severely wrong with them in a physical or mental sense.
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Let’s have a look at that. The word disordered is used twice. They are listed below. Now look at them carefully. In the first, it clearly states that homosexual acts, acts…not homosexual persons, are intrinsically disordered. Now look at the second one. It clearly states that the inclination, not homosexual persons, is objectively disordered. The CCC in no way suggests that homosexuals themselves are disordered. There is no room for a misunderstanding here. Simply a rejection of Church teaching on this subject, and nothing more.
  1. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”
  2. This inclination, which is objectively disordered
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