From Kingdom of Evil to Kingdom of God.

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Sister_Amy said:
inJESUS;3591837 said:
Imagine a teacher in a room with many children who are all chattering and carrying on, and she has two aides who are older than the children who are also talking. She yells out “SIIIILLLEEEEENCE!!!” She was addressing the children, but do you think her aides would keep talking? When God says BOW, you bow. Period.
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your analogy has a defect,in this instance, she did not precise who should shut up…if she screams " children shut up", her aids can keep talking unless they consider themselves children…

and even if she does not specify, children and aides are both humans.

the Quran specifies angels and Allah includes iblees with them. If he is no angel, he must belong to the same species, exactly why he is believed to be an angelic jinn.
Iblees said he was too good to bow. You don’t see this as a problem?
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thats not the issue. My point is that he did not reply : am no angel why are you rebuking me?

Iblees took it for granted that he should have bowed with the other angels, but he did not out of vanity or whatever, not because he was no angel.
The Qur’an is not meaningless, and disagreement among Companions or among scholars is hardly a problem, nor is it unique to Islam.
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of course, so be careful when you say the Quran corrects Christians when Muslims themselves are not sure…
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inJESUS said:
and even if she does not specify, children and aides are both humans.
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Maybe there was a dog barking too. I didn’t say… hmm.
the Quran specifies angels and Allah includes iblees with them. If he is no angel, he must belong to the same species, exactly why he is believed to be an angelic jinn.
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The way logic works is you base your conclusion on your premise. The Qur’an doesn’t say that Iblis was an angel. The Qur’an says God told the angels to bow, and Iblis didn’t want to bow. This is mentioned at least four times–that he didn’t want to bow, that he refused, that he was arrogant or proud. So you can’t say he must belong to the same species because you have no proof. Only you do have proof to the opposite–consult the hadith of 'Aisha. It’s quite possible that someone didn’t understand the verse about the jinn so they said something wrong. But now Muslim scholars are pretty much unanimous on this issue and there’s no sense debating it further.
Iblees took it for granted that he should have bowed with the other angels, but he did not out of vanity or whatever, not because he was no angel.
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You weren’t there, were you? So you don’t know. Maybe he wasn’t told to bow, but just said that he wouldn’t bow even if he were told because he was “better.” 🤷
of course, so be careful when you say the Quran corrects Christians when Muslims themselves are not sure…
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Muslims are sure. I’m not aware of any debate on this issue today. A few companions with a slightly different opinion is certainly excusable.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Maybe there was a dog barking too. I didn’t say… hmm.

if there were a dog barking and the teacher screamed SILEEEENCE yet expected the dog to shut up, she is a nutcase.
The way logic works is you base your conclusion on your premise. The Qur’an doesn’t say that Iblis was an angel. The Qur’an says God told the angels to bow, and Iblis didn’t want to bow. This is mentioned at least four times–that he didn’t want to bow, that he refused, that he was arrogant or proud.
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Join the Catholic faith where there are no distinctions:

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Where ever there is a Catholic there is my brother or sister in Christ. Come aboard; you are more than welcome.
 
to in Jesus

Peace and blessings your last two posts in this thread ( i dont know how to selective quote sorry) are the best i have read from you.

For me the common ground between Muslims and Christians on the crucification or not issue is

That the true part of a believer / submitter to The One Ture God Master of all creation CAN NEVER BE KILLED OR WILL ALWAYS BE SAVED.

Jesus (PBWH) was willing to summit to Allahs will, He was willing to put it all on the line for his brethren.

My God the Most High owner of the first day, the last day source of all creation willed this so we may learn this is a way of salvation.

Ye who callest tho self Jewish is this not a way you are called to?

Ye who callest tho self Christain is this not a way you are called to?

Ye who callest tho self Muslim is this not a way you are called to?

Verily hear and head unto the one truth spoken unto the in thy own heart for i will be who i will be speaketh in that place.
 
is Iblis jinn or angel??

from my own research the Quran says he is a jinn.

it does not say he is an angel.

yes he responds when angels are addressed.

my understanding is: the Quran was given to an Arabic speaking people so that they may understand.

i’m not Arabic speaking, i have an unedumucated understanding of English. so am unable to translate it myself. i have researched on the internet how the language gets translated. to the best of my understanding there is a rule called Tagleeb, i understand this as follows:

in addressing Arabic speaking people, one only refers to the majority of a group. eg in a classroom of 12 boys and 3 girls, one would address all in the class as boys, expecting the girls to understand that the address is to them as well.

this would seem to resolve that Iblis was indeed a jinn among angels when the address was being made, and as such Arabic speaking people would understand him to have been addressed as part of the group.

i don’t know that the Quran says Iblis is not an angel, but it does not say he is an angel and it does say he is a jinn.

assuming the translation rule of Tagleeb is correct, and interpreted by me correctly, this could be seen to show that various posts may not be incorrect.

i give thanks to God / Allah for all the help everyone has given with this question.
 
Steven_John said:
to the best of my understanding there is a rule called Tagleeb, i understand this as follows:
in addressing Arabic speaking people, one only refers to the majority of a group. eg in a classroom of 12 boys and 3 girls, one would address all in the class as boys, expecting the girls to understand that the address is to them as well.
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Steven_John said:
It seems to me you only answered one of my questions,

we are blessed to discern it is a gift of free will.
What did the prophet Jesus (PBWH) teach on judgment ?

If you are a sister to Jesus (PBWH) i urge you to have another go at responding to me.

The post was to you and the other person trough ME not Sister Amy.

I tell you this because i love all three of you, so much so i offer myself to The Father as a ransom for the salvation of His goodness in yous if He so wills.
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I’m sorry… I’m not exactly clear on what you are asking me, Steven John. I don’t want to answer what I think you’re asking, so could you please ask your questions of me again so that I’ll be able to give you a proper answer. Thank you.
*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
 
I’m sorry… I’m not exactly clear on what you are asking me, Steven John. I don’t want to answer what I think you’re asking, so could you please ask your questions of me again so that I’ll be able to give you a proper answer. Thank you.
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Steven_John said:
Wow you and the other person have a strange view of Jesus (PBWH)

Many say he is the way to the Father.

Do you think you are acting as he would?

Where are you going?

This is how you like to be treated?

My God commands me when my brother or sister is astray gently remind them of the path.

Please accept these questions i posed to you in good faith as i am for you not against you but i am against your actions here they are not constructive.

In a school yard they would be considered bullying.

Peace be with you and from you.
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GemmaRose said:
We have been trying to gently remind Sister Amy of the right path, but she adamantly refuses to believe, or is as thick as a brick wall. :banghead:

None of us would really care, or put so much effort into refuting her “arguments,” except that she is an apostate and on the wide and easy road to hell. We care enough to spend time to try and remind her of the right path, but she refuses to believe the truth.

When she starts talking about jinns and other such mythical creatures, she may as well be talking about monsters under the bed, in the closet, or in the drain of the tub.
*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
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Hi GemmaRose

here are my original questions, they were not general questions, to keep them in context you might like to review your previous post to Sister Amy before my questions. i am still trying to get the hang of quoting easily. in fairness these questions were not just directed at you.

May God give you time in reflection and guide your answers for the good of all.
 
Anita_K said:
Arabic Rule Of Tagleeb
The English translation of the first part of the verse ‘We said to the angels bow down to Adam: they bowed down except Iblis’, gives us the impression that Iblis was an angel. The Quran was revealed in Arabic. In Arabic grammar there is a rule known as Tagleeb, according to which, if the majority is addressed, even the minority is included. If for example, I address a class containing 100 students of whom 99 are boys and one is a girl, and if I say in Arabic that the boys should stand up, it includes the girl as well. I need not mention her seperately.

See the example given , it is correct, but it does not apply all the time, and it does not apply with different species. If there were 100 boys and 1 girl and 2 chairmen, if the teacher screams : boys silence, it does not apply to the chairmen. If the teacher screams boys silence and there are 2 dogs, it does not apply to dogs. So in order for the rule of tagleeb to apply, the parties in question must belong to the same category and or species…in this case, students are both STUDENTS and HUMANS. The rule does not apply to chairmen neither to dogs.
however from my understanding of jewish and christian scriptures and the research that i have done, angels have many different categories.
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that is why am saying jinn belong to angelic class, as some of the Muslim scholars said.
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The tagleeb rule was mentioned by Naik and he gives the following example:

In Arabic grammar there is a rule known as Tagleeb, according to which, if the majority is addressed, even the minority is included. If** for example**, I address a class containing 100 students of whom 99 are boys and one is a girl, and if I say in Arabic that the boys should stand up, it includes the girl as well. I need not mention her seperately.

this is correct but ask Naik what about if 3 chairmen were present, should they stand up as well? the answer is NO. Ask Naik if some dogs present must stand up, the answer is NO. So Naik is applying the CORRECT rule in the WRONG place.

Naik goes on to explain:
Similarly in the Qur’an, when Allah addressed the angels, even Iblis was present, **but it is not required that he be mentioned separately. **

If you apply this conclusion to his example , the result is that jinn belong to the same category and species of angels because boys and girls belong to the same category and species of STUDENTS and HUMANS.

Is it clear now ?
 
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