Frustration in being continuously told "its just a date"

[HopkinsReb]

I don’t think that’s a fair response.

 

[Aquinas11]

You put quotes around something I never said? And want to be taken seriously? Nope, sorry.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

You put quotes around something I never said? And want to be taken seriously? Nope, sorry.

It’s pretty clear she was parodying what you said. No one thought or thinks that was actually a direct quote.

Anyway, to address the substance, I’m not sure what your point is. No one is saying that women don’t also make mistakes in dating. Of course they do.

 

[HopkinsReb]

I didn’t take it that way.

Fundamentally, what’s going on with PUAs is that instead of conforming their offerings to women’s desires, they’re trying to conform women’s desires to their paltry offerings. And when women refuse to suddenly change en masse and universally clamor for slimy, manipulative manboys, the PUAs resent them for it.

And the modern career woman described above, while certainly not as vile, is not entirely different. She resents that men do not conform their desires to her offerings, even though she has not conformed her offerings to their desires.

Pointing out a similarity in the two cases does not have to be a moral equivalence. It does help to illustrate the biggest problem of modern romance: people are looking for someone to get something from, rather than to give something to.

 

[Crocus]

In other words, you’re being overlooked. Is there someone that you are perhaps overlooking? Is there someone who your friends think you ought to ask out that you haven’t? Few of us like to be set up, but sometimes when the ladies at church think that Guy A and Gal B would make a good match, they’re actually right.

Matchmaker, matchmaker, make me a match. Find me a find. Catch me a catch. An old art, still relevant.

I am sure backfires happen; anecdotally, my daughter was matched by friends, with her husband. He is awesome!

 

[HopkinsReb]

PetraG:

In other words, you’re being overlooked. Is there someone that you are perhaps overlooking? Is there someone who your friends think you ought to ask out that you haven’t? Few of us like to be set up, but sometimes when the ladies at church think that Guy A and Gal B would make a good match, they’re actually right.

Matchmaker, matchmaker, make me a match. Find me a find. Catch me a catch. An old art, still relevant.

I am sure backfires happen; anecdotally, my daughter was matched by friends, with her husband. He is awesome!

Is there a Latin word for yenta?

 

[Crocus]

Is there a Latin word for yenta?

It might be “catholicmatch.com”

Actually I did meet a young couple at church 9 years ago. She had to move across continent to marry him after meeting on that website, and having him approved by her family. They now have four beautiful children and a supportive extended family.

 

[Aquinas11]

Fundamentally, what’s going on with PUAs is that instead of conforming their offerings to women’s desires, they’re trying to conform women’s desires to their paltry offerings. And when women refuse to suddenly change en masse and universally clamor for slimy, manipulative manboys, the PUAs resent them for it.

Not sure I agree with that. Frequently PUAs are trolling, searching for the lowest spots on earth (bars, nightclubs, etc) for women , they dont go to Church to meet women. They could seek out a high quality woman who would be much better for them (marriage, family, etc) but instead they seek out lower quality women who are incredibly high risk (STDs, pregnancy, emotionally unstable, etc). So clearly he is not acting in his best interests when he seeks out low quality women. So the question that always must be answered: “If his interests aren’t being served, whose interests are being served?” And the answer is frequently his family including his parents are dysfunctional and it is their interests that are being served by him dating unhealthy women. The reason his unstable family/parents prefer him dating an unhealthy woman as opposed to a healthy woman is easy to see when you ask yourself “what would happen if a man with dysfunctional family dates a healthy woman?” The healthy woman will inevitably meet them, and like most healthy people will ask questions to find out whether this is a healthy family for her to marry into, etc. She’ll ask waaayy too many questions like “you guys divorced? why?” or “why did you leave your son?” that will make the family very uncomfortable. Hence why dysfunctional mommy and dady will ensure that their son (PUA) will continue to date unhealthy women who will never ask such uncomfortable questions.

 

[Crocus]

This makes me so sad.
Low quality.
Unhealthy.
In reference to vulnerable human individuals.

Lord have mercy on us and on the whole world.

 

[PetraG]

Matchmaker, matchmaker, make me a match. Find me a find. Catch me a catch. An old art, still relevant.

I am sure backfires happen; anecdotally, my daughter was matched by friends, with her husband. He is awesome!

I was set up with my husband (who had already graduated) by professors who knew us both.
He wasn’t going to the school any more, so if it hadn’t worked out it wouldn’t have been a “guy I still have to work with after I let him know we didn’t have a future” scenario. Yes, women do worry about that. (There are guys who do, too, actually.)

 

[PetraG]

Not sure I agree with that. Frequently PUAs are trolling, searching for the lowest spots on earth (bars, nightclubs, etc) for women , they dont go to Church to meet women. They could seek out a high quality woman who would be much better for them (marriage, family, etc) but instead they seek out lower quality women who are incredibly high risk (STDs, pregnancy, emotionally unstable, etc). So clearly he is not acting in his best interests when he seeks out low quality women. So the question that always must be answered: “ If his interests aren’t being served, whose interests are being served? ” And the answer is frequently his family including his parents are dysfunctional and it is their interests that are being served by him dating unhealthy women. The reason his unstable family/parents prefer him dating an unhealthy woman as opposed to a healthy woman is easy to see when you ask yourself “what would happen if a man with dysfunctional family dates a healthy woman?” The healthy woman will inevitably meet them, and like most healthy people will ask questions to find out whether this is a healthy family for her to marry into, etc. She’ll ask waaayy too many questions like “you guys divorced? why?” or “why did you leave your son?” that will make the family very uncomfortable. Hence why dysfunctional mommy and dady will ensure that their son (PUA) will continue to date unhealthy women who will never ask such uncomfortable questions.

I don’t think the OP is looking for the kind of use-her-and-leave-her qualities you’re talking about, though, so that is off-thread.
The OP is trying to figure out how to go beyond surface acquaintance with women he knows in order to figure out if he and some woman might make good friends or even life partners. There is nothing disrespectful about what he’s looking for.
I would guess, however, that he’s asking women who want a very high likelihood that they won’t be “dating” someone that they’ll feel some need to “let down.” They want a fairly high probability that the “just a date” will lead to a permanent relationship before they agree to start, because having to use the 1st date as a reason to turn down a 2nd or 3rd or 4th date seems more likely to be emotionally upsetting to the guy than not agreeing to the first date right off the bat. If he were someone they’d never see again if that first date didn’t work out, that wouldn’t seem so daunting. Knowing that they’ll see him every Sunday forever if they ever have to turn him down for more dates is another matter altogether, especially if he’s someone they don’t want to hurt.
I think this is why “nice guys” can have such a hard time getting a date. No one wants to belong anywhere on the roster of women who have broken the heart of such a nice person, and it “friend-zoning” is easily rationalized as just a “different kind of acceptance” rather than as a rejection.

 

[PetraG]

Sad, but true.

Ah, but that doesn’t mean they can’t think of someone else who ought to go on that adventure!!

OP, if you seem to get along pretty well with some of these women you have asked out, it is OK to ask women who have “friend-zoned” you what kind of woman they think you would attract. They might have ideas for women they know who would be happy to have you ask them on a date. I mean in the “Sarah, I know you don’t want to date me, but I count you as a friend. I’m looking for someone who’d like to go out to the movies or hiking or out to dinner, and…well, I know you don’t think you and I would make a good pair, but do you have any suggestions? I’m not Tarzan out on a wife hunt for a Jane, but I would like to find some female companionship. Even if it goes nowhere as far as marriage, well, I think it would still be enjoyable, do you know what I mean?”

They may know a woman in a different parish who wouldn’t see a date as much of a gamble, after all, because if it went nowhere the woman wouldn’t see the fellow who she’d decided not to date again every single Sunday.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

Problem is that the top 1-2% of men can choose any woman he wants to be mother of his kids so will choose a woman age 22 at peak fertility and who can be full time mom rather than someone who is 35 and working 50+ hours a week .

Also, I think this is a very dicey proposition. I don’t think this is by any means universal or even particularly common. Not to get weird about money, but I’m in my thirties, make over 100k a year, and if I were single, I would NOT be trying to date a 22 year old. Yeah, she might look good physically, but we’d be in totally different stages of life. What am I going to talk to a 22 year old about? I’d be much more likely to actually connect with a woman my age. Will a 35 year old man have a fling with a 22 year old woman? Sure. Does he actually want to marry one? Eh…

Plus the way you talk about “peak fertility” sounds like you’re talking about breeding stock for your prize bull. I don’t think most men think that way.

 

[Sarcelle]

It is a type of utilitarian thinking which divides people into usability and utility. Totally not compatible with Catholic teaching.

Sarcasm alert:

Surely any woman will go weak in the knees over being told she was chosen because she has the freshest supply of eggs and isn’t past her use by date.

 

[PetraG]

Interestingly enough, many heterosexual women manage to not have relationships or find a husband , they generally accomplish this by employing a technique called “dating up”

When a 35 year old woman who earns $100K because she decided to focus on her career until age 35, and is looking for a husband, she often instinctively looks for a man who earns more than $100K and excludes men earning less than $100K. Most men earning more than $100K age 35 or older are already married, so she’s looking at 1-2% of men who are (a) earning over $100K and (b) age 35 or more and (c ) who are single. Problem is that the top 1-2% of men can choose any woman he wants to be mother of his kids so will choose a woman age 22 at peak fertility and who can be full time mom rather than someone who is 35 and working 50+ hours a week . Hence she frequently doesn’t find anyone due to her (often subconscious) searching criteria. So what many of these women need to do (but aren’t doing) is lower their standards. But they won’t since nobody is telling them the truth. Instead they’re telling them “men suck” and “you go girl”, which makes you wonder if they really want to help them. And then anyone who does tell them the truth is attacked, so the problem will just keep getting worse. Hence why birthrates are way down, people getting married much later, etc etc. Not good.

By this reasoning, the OP shouldn’t have any problem, since the OP isn’t a professional woman over 35.

The guy just wants to go on a DATE. He wants to find a woman of roughly his own age and interests as an agreeable companion for one of those many things that guys do not do alone or with a male friend (or that don’t experience it in the same way when they do), like going out for a nice dinner or going to a movie or dancing or even a hike or stroll somewhere interesting. Just someone to have a nice conversation with on a one-on-one basis. If it develops into something more, great. If not, that’s OK, too.

He is probably running into the problem that women see him as looking for a serious relationship, and they feel they need to give him a thumbs-up or a thumbs-down right off the bat. He’s trying to figure out how to convince somebody that it is JUST A DATE.

He may have some luck going on a Catholic dating site and putting it just like that. If he’s not running a con job on himself, it just could work. I think we’ve been over the reasons that isn’t likely to work with the women at work or at church. Yes, sorry, but most of them won’t agree to a date unless they look at him and the first thought that comes to them is “Definitely Husband Material.” He’s right to say it isn’t how dating is sold but (a) there is a reason for that and (b) he’s not going to change things with that demographic of women.

 

[NeedANap]

I always thought that the ‘it’s just a date’ advice always applied best in situations where you weren’t already friends. Like for asking out an acquaintance, perhaps someone you’ve met once or twice at a diocesan event?

 

[Lara]

The single most important criteria for having a good life to a woman is marrying well. I know this from personal experience. Every woman I know who married well is sitting pretty in a nice home with kids. Her career is more of an add-on than essential. So it stands to reason she is going to summarize you in under five minutes before she is going to err and get caught up with less than marriage material.

The solution for the OP is money and status. Double your income and double your prospects. It will trump religion, looks, family dysfunction etc… Earn more money.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

The single most important criteria for having a good life to a woman is marrying well. I know this from personal experience. Every woman I know who married well is sitting pretty in a nice home with kids. Her career is more of an add-on than essential. So it stands to reason she is going to summarize you in under five minutes before she is going to err and get caught up with less than marriage material.

The solution for the OP is money and status. Double your income and double your prospects. It will trump religion, looks, family dysfunction etc… Earn more money.

I think you might be confusing correlation and causation. Women who are well rounded, sane, happy and outgoing are more likely to have good marriages because they attract good men.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

The solution for the OP is money and status. Double your income and double your prospects. It will trump religion, looks, family dysfunction etc… Earn more money.

This I also think is overly simplistic. We often hear from a certain type of guy that “women only want money” who point out that wealthy, well educated guys with good careers have no trouble getting dates. Doubtless it’s true that when women are assessing whether they want to raise kids with someone, the economics are factored in, but I don’t think that always tells the whole story. Obviously, cynical gold diggers exist (how else do you explain Anna Nicole Smith’s marriage to the 95 year old millionaire) but I don’t think that’s always the only explanation.

A guy who has a booming career where he makes a good salary isn’t just signaling “I can buy you nice stuff”. He’s also signalling that he likely has other desirable traits: responsibility, competence, the ability to get along with people, tact, maturity, etc. There are very few people who get rich by being irresponsible, dumb, tactless, and childish.

 

[MarlboroMan]

Guys were breaking down basic interactions that most functional adults should be able to handle on autopilot like it was the D-Day landing.

Well, once again, I can’t really argue with someone who is going to hyperfocus on the worst parts of a thing and pretend they are all that it is. Especially because I don’t really have any special interest in PUA techniques.

Thinking about women as sex vending machines or robots with “hypergamy” programming is not a healthy way to think about women.

You’re right… Once again, picking the low hanging fruit. But you know what is perfectly fine? Thinking about women as human beings who have natural tendencies toward hypergamy.

Obviously the incel movement is the worst of the worst

Really loving shooting at those easy targets, aren’t you. Dollars to dimes says you’ve read three or four CNN articles about “incels” and never actually spent more than a few minutes on an acrual incel forum finding out how the majority of them actually think.

Interestingly enough, most heterosexual men do manage to have relationships without the help of the red pill.

Once again, this is not a serious criticism. Most people go through life perfectly fine not knowing much about theology, philosophy, science, medicine, psychology, or mathematics. Whether “most people” know about or subscribe to a thing has zero bearing on it’s truth. Also the “red pill” philosophy is too broad now to only be described exclusively in its original form as a PUA theory about hypergamy.

Instead of trying to find ways to manipulate women into going out with them, perhaps the dorks should find ways to be less dorky.

I agree. But that’s not helpful advice, so if that is all you have then of course “dorks” are going to look elsewhere.

Also you know what, I’m kind of tired of running down men who struggle with women as “dorks” simply because they don’t fit into the gynocentric standards of today. I used it as an example because BoomBoomMancini called them dorks, but it really is rude.

You might ask yourself if you’ve been asking anyone out who might be having as little luck with the whole “pick up” strategy as you have.

Part of the reason I never went for Pickup is that I never really struggled getting girls to go out with me. Usually I can get a date by smiling, teasing her a bit, and then asking her out. And typically I can get a second date (though sometimes things just don’t work out.) I’m not currently ready for marriage so I try not to go too far beyond one or two dates, but I don’t really have any issue with women to where I would need to worry about learning all the PUA techniques.