Gay Catholic asks for help.

[CarlM86]

Yes, if it is an occasion of sin, it is best avoided. That’s what I meant. However, sexual attraction need not be acted upon, and many people do have the continence for such situations not to be near occasions of sin.

I see no contradictions in my position. I am unchaste out of choice - in that way, I am separated from the Church, and much like an addict, I am aware that I am harming myself in the long run by refusing to live by the faith I profess, though it’s something I intend on changing, as my faith grows deeper and more mature.

That said, my current position doesn’t disqualify me in encouraging others to live in a way better than my own. Many people on this forum fail to live up to the Church’s teachings out of weakness or out of choice, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they disagree with the Church, nor does it make what they say any less sound. Sinners have brains too.

And I see that in the OP’s case, the solution is quite simple, in that he and his friend can live out their friendship in a manner that will hopefully be satisfactory to them both and at the same time avoid offending God, provided they are able to remain continent and perhaps abstain from alcohol, which in their case seems to be more of an occasion of sin than spending time alone in each other’s company.

 

[CarlM86]

And I apologise if my response sounded abrupt. I felt offended my integrity and honesty were questioned in a rather condescending manner, which I’m sure was not the intention at all, but that’s the way if came across to me.

In any case, I firmly believe that what I said was sound from a Catholic perspective and was something that needed to be said.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes, if it is an occasion of sin, it is best avoided. That’s what I meant. However, sexual attraction need not be acted upon, and many people do have the continence for such situations not to be near occasions of sin.

I see no contradictions in my position. I am unchaste out of choice - in that way, I am separated from the Church, and much like an addict, I am aware that I am harming myself in the long run by refusing to live by the faith I profess, though it’s something I intend on changing, as my faith grows deeper and more mature.

That said, my current position doesn’t disqualify me in encouraging others to live in a way better than my own. Many people on this forum fail to live up to the Church’s teachings out of weakness or out of choice, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they disagree with the Church, nor does it make what they say any less sound. Sinners have brains too.

And I see that in the OP’s case, the solution is quite simple, in that he and his friend can live out their friendship in a manner that will hopefully be satisfactory to them both and at the same time avoid offending God, provided they are able to remain continent and perhaps abstain from alcohol, which in their case seems to be more of an occasion of sin than spending time alone in each other’s company.

Carl,

Drunk on the street, can’t stop drinking giving advice on what to do with drinking?

Guy has a needle in his arm, shooting up heroin, giving advice on not shooting heroin?

Credibility Carl, Credibility…

 

[StJudeprayforme]

Carl,

Drunk on the street, can’t stop drinking giving advice on what to do with drinking?

Guy has a needle in his arm, shooting up heroin, giving advice on not shooting heroin?

Credibility Carl, Credibility…

Charity, Coptic, charity…

I know plenty of alcoholics and drug addicts who tell kids not to do drugs. People can see that something is wrong and keep doing it.

 

[chryso]

AVE MARIA!
It is not always easy to do the right thing by/in anyway!
But on this matter i will advice:
He should let his friend know that they are doing the wrong thing;
since they both now know it is wrong,together, they should find ways to desist from it and one of such ways is to promise each other not to be amenable to the inclinations ;
they should inclusively know their weakest time and flee from it;
For me this is the easiest way Heavenhelp can follow by working together with his companion but he can work it out alone(hard way) by opting-out of the relationship completely with no or little contact with the companion for honestly it is an occasion of sin.
“FOR THE WAR AGAINST THE SINS OF THE FLESH IS WON BY COWARDS i.e THOSE WHO COMPLETELY AND FEARFULLY RUN AWAY FROM EVERYTHING THAT WILL INCITE THEM TO SIN”
I will repeat,it is not easy,but there is nothing that can be compared to God and our salvation.

To Heavenhelp and those having similar issues:

      "ABOVE ALL,PRAYER AND PENANCE;VIOLENCE MUST BE DONE TO THE FIVE SENSES,SUBJECT THE FLESH TO THE WILL OF THE SPIRIT BY PENANCE.PRAY HARDER AND MAKE USE OF THE HOLY ROSARY,MAKE PENANCES AND MORTIFICATIONS YOUR WAY OF LIFE AND THIS CORRUPT INCLINATION WILL BE PURGED OUT FROM YOU WITH GOD'S UNFATHOMABLE MERCY AND GRACE"
   penitos! Penitos! Penitos!

                                           Fill free to PM me, you are always welcome!.............AVE MARIA!

 

[CopticChristian]

Charity, Coptic, charity…

I know plenty of alcoholics and drug addicts who tell kids not to do drugs. People can see that something is wrong and keep doing it.

What is your understanding of Charity?

Do as I do not as I say

or

Do as I say not as I do

Which do you believe has the most value…? What you say? or What you do?

Credibility comes in leading by example…

or do you believe otherwise?

Do we follow Christ for what he says or by example…

What would Jesus do?

or

What would Jesus say?

tell me your understanding of what is the most important…

 

[CarlM86]

Seriously, Coptic, as perfect as you may think that you are, I assure you that you, just like me, too are not sinless. This, however, does not say anything about your ability to reason.

And, to be honest, I am fairly confident in my credibility, as, much like a drug addict warning people about the perils of drugs holds more sway than a friendly teacher who doesn’t have a clue, I too, as a man who doesn’t follow Church teaching to his own detriment, know a thing or two about what I am talking about.

I feel entirely justified in advising OP against pursuing his sexual desires with regard to his friend and in suggesting a better alternative. I feel more than qualified in doing so, having pursued this route and having experienced first hand where it leads.

Just because I am still going down the wrong road does not mean I cannot tell others that it is a dead end. In fact, with my experience, I feel that my indication to go down the correct road and to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church is more credible than whatever you have to say on the matter, since I’m talking from the perspective of “Been there, done that, still doing it, and believe you me, it’s not worth it.”

Instead of casting stones at your brother, why don’t you address his points and show him where he is wrong? All I wanted was to tell a fellow homosexually attracted man that he can turn his difficult situation into something beautiful and positive by following Church teaching. All you have done is undermined what I have said because of your prejudice against me, a man who is sinful just like you are.

 

[CarlM86]

What is your understanding of Charity?

Do as I do not as I say

or

Do as I say not as I do

Charity is about loving others and doing unto them as you would have them do unto you, and nothing about the false dichotomy you presented above. Even if one has more value than the other, it. doesn’t make the other worthless. We have less than holy priests teaching good things, we’ve had less than holy Popes holding fast to the truth of the Catholic faith, and we’ve had holier-than-thou heretics thinking they can disregard the words of unholy men, whose words were nonetheless truthful.

Which do you believe has the most value…? What you say? or What you do?

Credibility comes in leading by example…

or do you believe otherwise?

Do we follow Christ for what he says or by example…

What would Jesus do?

or

What would Jesus say?

tell me your understanding of what is the most important…

Even if what Jesus did were more important than what he said, does that mean we can freely tear out and disregard the pages with His words in the Bible?

Your attacking my person and failure to address my words, which you so keenly wish to be disregarded does little to diminish the value of what I have saif. Instead, it places you in an unfavourable light as a person who lets prejudice get in the way of reason and rational discourse.

 

[HeavenHelp]

I have just seen the responses to the post and I have to say thank you to you all. I have to make some things clear though. My post that was very defeatist and despondent came from an experience that I had with a priest earlier that day. He reacted very badly to me when I asked his advice, it infuriated me and I wrote the post full of emotion. I apologize.

I’m sorry for going into detail with this matter but I want to clear something up; I have not had sex with him because of the Churches teaching on the matter, I wont say that I wouldn’t do that at some point in the future but for the moment I will not do it because I still believe in the Church and as long as I do I wont.

There is one more thing. Please keep me in your prayers that I maintain my faith. This is extremely difficult, both emotionally and spiritually. Lord Jesus have mercy.

 

[CarlM86]

I have just seen the responses to the post and I have to say thank you to you all. I have to make some things clear though. My post that was very defeatist and despondent came from an experience that I had with a priest earlier that day. He reacted very badly to me when I asked his advice, it infuriated me and I wrote the post full of emotion. I apologize.

I’m sorry for going into detail with this matter but I want to clear something up; I have not had sex with him because of the Churches teaching on the matter, I wont say that I wouldn’t do that at some point in the future but for the moment I will not do it because I still believe in the Church and as long as I do I wont.

There is one more thing. Please keep me in your prayers that I maintain my faith. This is extremely difficult, both emotionally and spiritually. Lord Jesus have mercy.

Please accept the prayers of your sinful brother.

As someone who knows a little about your experience, let me assure you that both you and your friend will be happier sticking to the Catholic faith and living by its teachings. I say this with absolute certainty.

You should consider yourself blessed in having met a friend such as yours, and even though you are finding this situation emotionally challenging, if you entrust it to God’s will, I believe that you may find in your friend someone, who not only shares your cross, but can help you carry it and to live your Catholic faith in its fullness, and you could do the same for him.

As hard as you may be finding living your Catholic faith this situation, harder still it would be to live it alone. Don’t lose this opportunity to share your cross and to help your friend reach the gates of heaven together with you, and to have him help you.

God bless you.

 

[CopticChristian]

Charity is about loving others and doing unto them as you would have them do unto you, and nothing about the false dichotomy you presented above. Even if one has more value than the other, it. doesn’t make the other worthless. We have less than holy priests teaching good things, we’ve had less than holy Popes holding fast to the truth of the Catholic faith, and we’ve had holier-than-thou heretics thinking they can disregard the words of unholy men, whose words were nonetheless truthful.

Even if what Jesus did were more important than what he said, does that mean we can freely tear out and disregard the pages with His words in the Bible?

Your attacking my person and failure to address my words, which you so keenly wish to be disregarded does little to diminish the value of what I have saif. Instead, it places you in an unfavourable light as a person who lets prejudice get in the way of reason and rational discourse.

Charity is about loving others and doing unto them as you would have them do unto you, and nothing about the false dichotomy you presented above.

Ok, Carl…let us look together…

Charity
1822 Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God.

1827 The practice of all the virtues is animated and inspired by charity, which “binds everything together in perfect harmony”;105 it is the form of the virtues; it articulates and orders them among themselves; it is the source and the goal of their Christian practice. Charity upholds and purifies our human ability to love, and raises it to the supernatural perfection of divine love.

1828 The practice of the moral life animated by charity gives to the Christian the spiritual freedom of the children of God. He no longer stands before God as a slave, in servile fear, or as a mercenary looking for wages, but as a son responding to the love of him who “first loved us”:106

If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.107

1829 The fruits of charity are joy, peace, and mercy;** charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; **it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion: Love is itself the fulfillment of all our works. There is the goal; that is why we run: we run toward it, and once we reach it, in it we shall find rest.108

So Charity allows us to love God and love Neighbor and is Charitable to offer fraternal correction in Charity because when discussing presence or absence of virtue…

and

I. THE HUMAN VIRTUES

1804 Human virtues are firm attitudes, stable dispositions, habitual perfections of intellect and will that govern our actions, order our passions, and guide our conduct according to reason and faith. They make possible ease, self-mastery, and joy in leading a morally good life. The virtuous man is he who freely practices the good.

The moral virtues are acquired by human effort. They are the fruit and seed of morally good acts; they dispose all the powers of the human being for communion with divine love.

Prudence, Justice, Fortitude, Temperance…Chastity falls under the virtue of temperance

The virtues are acts that animate the moral life…and as a firm attitude and disposition, ie temperance/Chastity…to direct someone towards temperance…it is wisdom, a gift of the Spirit…

2346 Charity is the form of all the virtues. Under its influence, chastity appears as a school of the gift of the person. Self-mastery is ordered to the gift of self. Chastity leads him who practices it to become a witness to his neighbor of God’s fidelity and loving kindness.

and the moral life leads to gifts and fruits of the Spirit

1830 The moral life of Christians is sustained by the gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are permanent dispositions which make man docile in following the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

1831 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. They belong in their fullness to Christ, Son of David.109 They complete and perfect the virtues of those who receive them. They make the faithful docile in readily obeying divine inspirations.

Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.110
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God . . . If children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ.111

1832 The fruits of the Spirit are perfections that the Holy Spirit forms in us as the first fruits of eternal glory. The tradition of the Church lists twelve of them: "charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity."112

So Carl, while you admit to being unchaste, you are not practicing Temperance and therefore by your own admission would be absent virtue, that would lead to the moral life as noted that would cause you to be wise and be able to offer correction based on gifts of the Spirit…

You have all the means necessary to you from God to act as the Church teaches and then in some future time you can say…I was that guy and now I am not and let me tell you this…

Do you now understand?

 

[chryso]

I agree with you carlm86,they should both carry the cross together it will be helpful they work together, encouraging and supporting each other.

 

[StJudeprayforme]

Coptic:

I don’t have the time to go line by line through your responses. I was calling you out on being uncharitable because you were comparing him to a drunkard and a heroine addict, and implying that it is impossible to realize your actions are wrong while choosing to continue doing them. Like I said, drug addicts and alcoholics can tell kids not to do drugs or become alcoholics while choosing not to change. It happens quite frequently, actually.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Please keep me in your prayers that I maintain my faith. This is extremely difficult, both emotionally and spiritually. Lord Jesus have mercy.

For my part, will do.

Edited to add: It is my opinion that every diocese (not every parish necessarily; it’s not always feasible) should have an Outreach program like Courage or something similar, headed by those trained to deal with these issues, approachable, and sensitive. None of us were there for the encounter with a priest you mention; it may be that he didn’t handle it well; it may be that he was irritated for another reason; there may have been a communication problem on both ends. In any case, there should always be a refuge for people such as yourself, in every diocese, so that doors can remain open to you.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic:

I don’t have the time to go line by line through your responses. I was calling you out on being uncharitable because you were comparing him to a drunkard and a heroine addict, and implying that it is impossible to realize your actions are wrong while choosing to continue doing them. Like I said, drug addicts and alcoholics can tell kids not to do drugs or become alcoholics while choosing not to change. It happens quite frequently, actually.

Compare and contrast this with virtue.

 

[CopticChristian]

I have just seen the responses to the post and I have to say thank you to you all. I have to make some things clear though.
I’m sorry for going into detail with this matter but I want to clear something up; I have not had sex with him because of the Churches teaching on the matter, I wont say that I wouldn’t do that at some point in the future but for the moment I will not do it because I still believe in the Church and as long as I do I wont.

There is one more thing. Please keep me in your prayers that I maintain my faith. This is extremely difficult, both emotionally and spiritually. Lord Jesus have mercy.

My post that was very defeatist and despondent came from an experience that I had with a priest earlier that day. He reacted very badly to me when I asked his advice, it infuriated me and I wrote the post full of emotion. I apologize.

Without the necessity of seeing or revealing content what is it you wanted from the Priest and how is it you precieved that he reacted badly to you?

 

[StJudeprayforme]

Without the necessity of seeing or revealing content what is it you wanted from the Priest and how is it you precieved that he reacted badly to you?

Not to presume to speak for the OP, but it was probably that the priest said something rather bluntly to an emotional young person coming to grips with his sexuality. Some clerics aren’t that good at responding to issues surrounding human sexuality in a way that is both orthodox and pastoral.

 

[CopticChristian]

Not to presume to speak for the OP, but it was probably that the priest said something rather bluntly to an emotional young person coming to grips with his sexuality. Some clerics aren’t that good at responding to issues surrounding human sexuality in a way that is both orthodox and pastoral.

Thoughtful but not helpful.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

For my part, will do.

Edited to add: It is my opinion that every diocese (not every parish necessarily; it’s not always feasible) should have an Outreach program like Courage or something similar, headed by those trained to deal with these issues, approachable, and sensitive. None of us were there for the encounter with a priest you mention; it may be that he didn’t handle it well; it may be that he was irritated for another reason; there may have been a communication problem on both ends. In any case, there should always be a refuge for people such as yourself, in every diocese, so that doors can remain open to you.

My city does not have one and it is in the top 0.01% of cities in the US in terms of population. Nearest place with a Courage group is an hour by car. Courage from what I saw seems to only be useful for people who washed out of “the lifestyle” (as in promiscuity et al.).

Personally I think we need more youth oriented groups.

 

[CarlM86]

Ok, Carl…let us look together…

So Charity allows us to love God and love Neighbor and is Charitable to offer fraternal correction in Charity because when discussing presence or absence of virtue…

and

The virtues are acts that animate the moral life…and as a firm attitude and disposition, ie temperance/Chastity…to direct someone towards temperance…it is wisdom, a gift of the Spirit…

and the moral life leads to gifts and fruits of the Spirit

So Carl, while you admit to being unchaste, you are not practicing Temperance and therefore by your own admission would be absent virtue, that would lead to the moral life as noted that would cause you to be wise and be able to offer correction based on gifts of the Spirit…

You have all the means necessary to you from God to act as the Church teaches and then in some future time you can say…I was that guy and now I am not and let me tell you this…

Do you now understand?

Coptic, I understand you wish to offer me correction. In my case, however, I already have been corrected by the Church and accept it. Now it is simply a question of my putting this into practice and correcting myself. I’d appreciate it if you’d be so kind as to let me go about doing things at my own pace.

I fully accept that I lack virtue and I am entirely open about that fact - I do not attempt to lie about it and to hide it, which is all the more reason for me to be offended at your questioning my honesty. I understand what you’re saying and I agree that it would be better if I were speaking from the perspective of somebody who has already reformed his conduct in accordance with Church teaching. However, just because something might be better at some point in the future doesn’t make it bad now.

What I took issue with was your implication that what I have to say is somehow worthless because I fail to live a life of virtue. I am not the first person to have had a conversion of heart before a conversion of conduct. It took St Augustine a while too.

I myself had no intention of offering correction. I was merely expressing my perspective and attempting to contribute, positively, I hope, to the conversation. I do not believe that I have said anything contrary to Church teaching, and those who read my posts can make of them what they will.

You too have all the means necessary to act in the way that the Church teaches, but you, and every other poster on this forum, fail in doing so in one way or another, and not every poster who has made a valuable contribution to this discussion was virtuous at the time of writing.

None of us are in heaven yet and we are all imperfect to varying degrees. The things we say from our differing perspectives and from our different stages on the journey to perfection should, however, be judged on their own merits, without resorting to ad hominems or to character assassination.