Gay Marriage and Freedom of Religion

[LeroyCRHP]

It is amazing how basic positions of the Catholic Church remain true today and were true 2000 years ago. Arguements are made against these positions all the time, but they remain true. Sometimes legal loopholes even allow immoral activities like abortion but what is immoral is still immoral.

And it is not just a Catholic position unless California is mostly Catholic, what happened with Prop 8?

 

[fix]

I see no reason that the homosexual orientation must be corrected. It is harmless to all when not being acted upon.

I never said it must be corrected. I was pointing out that simply because some item occurs within nature is not proof that item is healthy. We all live with all types of inclinations that never get correction.

 

[fix]

Oh great. Now the homosexual orientation is a pathology. What, even if we’re celibate, we’re walking time bombs? Think again.

No, I am not saying that. I am refuting the idea that simply because persons may be born with certain inclinations is not proof they are healthy inclinations.

 

[NoMoreGames]

I hate to state the obvious, but you are on a Catholic web site. What did you expect?

I know, I was just hoping to start an educated debate with tangable grounds instead of the “gays are bad” " no they’re not" topics I typicaly see on here.

The gay lifestyle is a lifestyle of sadness and death. Maybe your right, perhaps we should call it the gay deathstyle. Or its proper name the culture of death.

For there is nothing about life or a life worth living for in the whole gay scene. so sad, for one to embrace such a very, very sad and pitiful way to live.

Up to this point I havent stated that I am but this post makes me break my silence. Once again, I state there is no “gay lifestyle,” I am living proof. Sure, there may be the steryotypical lifestyle ot partying and drugs, but those are only the ones you hear about. I’d argue that there are more gay couples just trying to live a happly life together, our of the eyes of the media, parades and parties. Saying all gays act a certain way is like saying all african americans are in gangs. Sure, maybe some are, but by no means are all of them.

 

[Bennie_P]

Up to this point I havent stated that I am but this post makes me break my silence. Once again, I state there is no “gay lifestyle,” I am living proof. Sure, there may be the steryotypical lifestyle ot partying and drugs, but those are only the ones you hear about. I’d argue that there are more gay couples just trying to live a happly life together, our of the eyes of the media, parades and parties. Saying all gays act a certain way is like saying all african americans are in gangs. Sure, maybe some are, but by no means are all of them.

There is a “gay” rights movement which is being pushed by those that live stereotypical gay lifestyle. A minority of a minority.

Most gays I know or have known fall in two basic groups. Ones that want to be left alone to live their lives quietly as they choose and the others which want the “straights” to pay for their misery.
Placing blame on the whole world, Christians in particular as the source of that misery, but never acknowledge their messed up choices are to blame (sex, drugs and rock and roll). The gist of gay marriage and gay rights was and is the a brain child of the second.

Myself, I do not go out hounding and bashing gays, gay couples, etc. and most of the rest of Christian Community, with the exception of that Phelps dude, do not either.

What the conflict we have here is an attempt of a minority of a minority trying to define what society should look like, but the majority has a problem with that. We do not want our children nor oursevles to be exposed to the lifstyle of the “gays” which we see flaunting their perversions in the gay-pride parades, bondage & leather street festivals, or protesting inside our Churches by descrating the Eucarhist.

The whole “gay” marriage push is all about silencing the Church. For you see a lot of those that have rejected the Church’s teaching concerning homosexuality do not want their parents, siblings and other close friends to be judging them. So they think if they can get the government come out say it is wrong to teach homosexuality as being disordered, as the Church teaches, then their parents, their siblings, their friends would like magic accept them, their guilt and self hate will go away and everybody would be singing and drinking Coca Cola.

The only thing they will accomplish is silencing the Church, making life not only miserable for themselves but everyone else also.

As to you being living proof of anything to me, I see you as another liberal in denial of the truth. Very, very typical -

As gay marriage a freedom of religion issue, to which god are the gays consecreting their marriage to?

 

[NoMoreGames]

In surat ash-Sh`ara’, we read: 'The people of Lot rejected the messengers. Their brother Lot said to them: 'Will you not fear God? I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust. so fear God and obey me. No reward do I ask of you for it.

I fail to see how that prove what they actually did wrong. I look more like they were very selfish and unwelcoming than gay. I’m not saying the cities weren’t destroyed, I just think the reason was something different than what most people think.

 

[NoMoreGames]

The whole “gay” marriage push is all about silencing the Church. For you see a lot of those that have rejected the Church’s teaching concerning homosexuality do not want their parents, siblings and other close friends to be judging them. So they think if they can get the government come out say it is wrong to teach homosexuality as being disordered, as the Church teaches, then their parents, their siblings, their friends would like magic accept them, their guilt and self hate will go away and everybody would be singing and drinking Coca Cola.

The only thing they will accomplish is silencing the Church, making life not only miserable for themselves but everyone else also.

As to you being living proof of anything to me, I see you as another liberal in denial of the truth. Very, very typical -

As gay marriage a freedom of religion issue, to which god are the gays consecreting their marriage to?

First of, I find it funny that you say you don’t bash gays then call me typical when you know absolutely nothing about me. I’m not even liberal, I just want to be able to spend my life with the person I’m in love with, legally. There are heterosexual people who whore, and flaunt sexuality and abuse substances, but they can still get married within the church, and all I want to do it be able to commit myself in front of God to the man I love, but I cant because of certain interpretations of translations.

My partner and I are both very strong Catholics. We talk about our faith every day, go to church together, and don’t have sex. If i didn’t say he was a male, you would think we had a holy relationship, so why should it be any different?

Second, It has NOTHING to do with silencing the church, it’s about not being silenced. For some, maybe, but you even said it’s a minority of a minority, so I dont think you are justified in saying that.

As far as freedom of religion, technically not having a faith is also a belief system.

 

[royal_archer]

To start of, I’m not being sarcastic. That being said, are those who are against gay marriage also against the freedom of religion? I don’t like how the emails this site sends out places it in the same category as things like abortion, and euthanasia. Those two violate human life, which is universal to all humans. Gay marriage, on the other hand, does not take away life nor limit the rights of others. I’m curious as to why people believe that gay marriage should not be allowed in the country when it falls more so under the category of freedom of religion.

Do we believe they have a secular right to be immoral? yes. Do they have a right to malign a moral institution? No!

As a man, I can’t just call myself a woman and walk into the women’s locker room, I can’t just call myself a doctor and start practicing medicine, I can not declare myself a General and walk down the street in full uniform. Like wise these people do not have the right to declare themselves married and attempt to deceive those around them by pretending to be what they are not. Further you will see that the underlying reason that many of these individuals want to call themselves married is so they can take advantage of bennefits intended for truly married couples.

 

[royal_archer]

First of, I find it funny that you say you don’t bash gays then call me typical when you know absolutely nothing about me. I’m not even liberal, I just want to be able to spend my life with the person I’m in love with, legally. There are heterosexual people who whore, and flaunt sexuality and abuse substances, but they can still get married within the church, and all I want to do it be able to commit myself in front of God to the man I love, but I cant because of certain interpretations of translations.

My partner and I are both very strong Catholics. We talk about our faith every day, go to church together, and don’t have sex. If i didn’t say he was a male, you would think we had a holy relationship, so why should it be any different?

Second, It has NOTHING to do with silencing the church, it’s about not being silenced. For some, maybe, but you even said it’s a minority of a minority, so I dont think you are justified in saying that.

As far as freedom of religion, technically not having a faith is also a belief system.

No one is stopping you from living with the one you “love”. However, if you truly loved them would you endager their mortal soul?

But don’t try to call your relation marriage if it is not. Also, Don’t try to advocate your situation as moral when it is not. Doing so is a further sin in that your public flaunting of an imoral act as an moral act may confuse others who do not know better.

 

[pathia]

Exactly! Gay marriage cannot produce or give life! This is the reason why Catholics are opposed to it. Not to mention the fact that gay activities are gravely sinful.

Sterile marriages are the same way, yet even the Church allows those.

 

[pathia]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

Salaam/ Peace

If people declare openly that they are gay , they are gay couple , they must enjoy the special facilities etc etc , we must not support/ encourage them . In the past , God punished the whole nation ; we can’t take the risk to be punished by God by supporting gays.

These people are sick --they need urgent treatment --physically , mentally , spiritually .

When should we start treating them? In youth? In my I was treated for being too effeminate. I tried to kill myself at 8 years old, and I tried three more times over my teenage years.

Of the kids in treatment with me, half were dead by their own hand before they were 15.

 

[royal_archer]

When should we start treating them? In youth? In my I was treated for being too effeminate. I tried to kill myself at 8 years old, and I tried three more times over my teenage years.

Of the kids in treatment with me, half were dead by their own hand before they were 15.

Are you suggesting we not tell people they are sinning bcause it might make them feel bad?

Or are you implyin that the treatments need to improve?

 

[NoMoreGames]

No one is stopping you from living with the one you “love”. However, if you truly loved them would you endager their mortal soul?

But don’t try to call your relation marriage if it is not. Also, Don’t try to advocate your situation as moral when it is not. Doing so is a further sin in that your public flaunting of an imoral act as an moral act may confuse others who do not know better.

By putting love in quotes, are you meaning that it can’t be true love between us?

And I’m not trying to call it marriage at all. I didn’t say husband, (i realize i should not have said partner, i meant for it to refer to boyfriend, sorry about that) and i said we don’t do anything sexual, both of which are reserved for marriage. And as for flaunting, you have no ground to say I flaunt. In fact, you could know me in real life for years, and never know unless you directly asked me or saw us together on a date. I’m not ashamed, but I know that there are people out there who would look at and treat me differently. Instead I let them get to know me first, since there is a whole lot more to me than being gay. Flamboyant gays make me incredibly uncomfortable, and I wouldn’t dream of ever going to a pride parade or wear a rainbow.

I actually didn’t even want to say anything about my orientation because I didn’t want to shift the topic, but I had a lapse of judgement.

Sterile marriages are the same way, yet even the Church allows those.

I think the logic there is that they are open to life? But what about couples that don’t want any kids at all? The church doesn’t make then get an annulment (the annulment is a concept which I can’t understand no matter how hard I try) if they use contraception, do they?

I’ve followed your story as you’ve posted in several topics, and I am truly sorry for what was done to you. You’re in my prayers

 

[pathia]

Are you suggesting we not tell people they are sinning bcause it might make them feel bad?

Or are you implyin that the treatments need to improve?

Are you trying to suggest having children commit suicide before they’re even of legal age is preferable to them being gay?

There’s a big difference between hurting someone’s feelings and driving them to suicide. One of our therapists often told us suicide was ‘better’ than a lifetime of sin, which is why many children killed themselves, that was their conclusion. Better to end it now, than be tempted the rest of their lives.

That’s not therapy, that’s manslaughter, if not outright murder. Inciting CHILDREN to end it. They viewed the deaths as part of a war with satan, or something as far as I could tell. They were war deaths, despite being children.

 

[wanner47]

From here:

So anytime we come across a lawmaker who tries to suggest that an argument in defense of sound morals is nothing but imposing a religious viewpoint, we need to look deeper at what may really be taking place. That lawmaker may not be so concerned about avoiding the imposition of a particular view on others - more likely, they are jockeying to simply be able to impose their view, a view which is ultimately much less tenable and defensible in terms of sound moral thinking. Hence they seek to short-circuit the discussion by stressing religious zealotry and imposition without ever confronting the substantive ethical or bioethical argument itself. Once the religious imposition card is played, and Christian lawmakers suddenly become weak-kneed about defending human life and sound morals, the other side then feels free to do the imposing themselves, without having expended too much effort on confronting the essence of the moral debate itself.

Also, The Secular Case Against Gay Marriage

It’s too long to post in its entirety, but in a nutshell:

The biggest danger homosexual civil marriage presents is the enshrining into law the notion that sexual love, regardless of its fecundity, is the sole criterion for marriage. If the state must recognize a marriage of two men simply because they love one another, upon what basis can it deny marital recognition to a group of two men and three women, for example, or a sterile brother and sister who claim to love each other? Homosexual activists protest that they only want all couples treated equally. But why is sexual love between two people more worthy of state sanction than love between three, or five? When the purpose of marriage is procreation, the answer is obvious. If sexual love becomes the primary purpose, the restriction of marriage to couples loses its logical basis, leading to marital chaos.

 

[royal_archer]

Are you trying to suggest having children commit suicide before they’re even of legal age is preferable to them being gay?

There’s a big difference between hurting someone’s feelings and driving them to suicide. One of our therapists often told us suicide was ‘better’ than a lifetime of sin, which is why many children killed themselves, that was their conclusion. Better to end it now, than be tempted the rest of their lives.

That’s not therapy, that’s manslaughter, if not outright murder. Inciting CHILDREN to end it. They viewed the deaths as part of a war with satan, or something as far as I could tell. They were war deaths, despite being children.

I wasn’t sugesting anything yet I was asking two questions. If you are willing to respond to them I’ll better know how to help you.

 

[pathia]

I wasn’t sugesting anything yet I was asking two questions. If you are willing to respond to them I’ll better know how to help you.

1.) I answered that one, feeling bad is different than inspiring suicide. That’s what this therapy does.

2.) See above, if it is causing children to commit suicide, I would say it’s a pretty horrible, negative counter productive thing. No one has ever tried to do anything new in the entire 20years of my experience with it, there is nothing to improve, they state they work, yet leave a trail of bodies and destroyed lives behind them. There is no incentive to change or improve, because they can bring out the few examples that it seems to have worked on. However, the dead can’t talk and don’t complain.

 

[royal_archer]

By putting love in quotes, are you meaning that it can’t be true love between us?

And I’m not trying to call it marriage at all. I didn’t say husband, (i realize i should not have said partner, i meant for it to refer to boyfriend, sorry about that) and i said we don’t do anything sexual, both of which are reserved for marriage. And as for flaunting, you have no ground to say I flaunt. In fact, you could know me in real life for years, and never know unless you directly asked me or saw us together on a date. I’m not ashamed, but I know that there are people out there who would look at and treat me differently. Instead I let them get to know me first, since there is a whole lot more to me than being gay. Flamboyant gays make me incredibly uncomfortable, and I wouldn’t dream of ever going to a pride parade or wear a rainbow.

I actually didn’t even want to say anything about my orientation because I didn’t want to shift the topic, but I had a lapse of judgement.

It is not the same as a healthy pure love between a man and a woman.

Going on a “date” is flaunting your relationship.

You have a disordered desire. I can’t fault you for that like wise I can’t fault those who have other deviant desires. The fault comes when you nurture those desires or act on them.

 

[royal_archer]

1.) I answered that one, feeling bad is different than inspiring suicide. That’s what this therapy does.

2.) See above, if it is causing children to commit suicide, I would say it’s a pretty horrible, negative counter productive thing. No one has ever tried to do anything new in the entire 20years of my experience with it, there is nothing to improve, they state they work, yet leave a trail of bodies and destroyed lives behind them. There is no incentive to change or improve, because they can bring out the few examples that it seems to have worked on. However, the dead can’t talk and don’t complain.

1. Does therapy for child molesters, sexaholics, or other deviants cause suicide?
2. Why do you think that it works sometimes but other times fails?

 

[pathia]

It is not the same as a healthy pure love between a man and a woman.

Going on a “date” is flaunting your relationship.

You have a disordered desire. I can’t fault you for that like wise I can’t fault those who have other deviant desires. The fault comes when you nurture those desires or act on them.

So we’re supposed to be hermits, shut ourselves off from the world and never speak about anything, ever?

Do you know how many times I get asked if I have kids, or if I’m married, or when people flirt with me shamelessly? There’s nothing I can do, I can’t stop other people from asking questions I cannot answer without deflecting in such a way they figure it out.