Gay Marriage and the End of Christian Civilization

[larkin31]

Gratitude is not pride!

If that were all you are expressing, sure

 

[irishpatrick]

If that were all you are expressing, sure

???

 

[PassingThru]

Seriously? You would be okay with our government not recognizing Cathoic marriages as valid?

Holy Cow.

What he means is the the worst case he can imagine is that you would still have to go the county clerk to formally be recognized by the state as married.

However, no one has yet come up with even ONE example of a Church being denied the ability to marry, or forced to marry, one single person. The Catholic Church and most all other churches practice discrimination in there marriage principals on a daily basis, yet no one is upset. Can anyone explain how this will change?

 

[larkin31]

Holy Cow.

What he means is the the worst case he can imagine is that you would still have to go the county clerk to formally be recognized by the state as married.

However, no one has yet come up with even ONE example of a Church being denied the ability to marry, or forced to marry, one single person. The Catholic Church and most all other churches practice discrimination in there marriage principals on a daily basis, yet no one is upset. Can anyone explain how this will change?

it won’t change

 

[irishpatrick]

Holy Cow.

What he means is the the worst case he can imagine is that you would still have to go the county clerk to formally be recognized by the state as married.

However, no one has yet come up with even ONE example of a Church being denied the ability to marry, or forced to marry, one single person. The Catholic Church and most all other churches practice discrimination in there marriage principals on a daily basis, yet no one is upset. Can anyone explain how this will change?

It is not a matter of what has happened; rather, it is about what will HAPPEN IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

 

[PatrickSebast]

Seriously? You would be okay with our government not recognizing Cathoic marriages as valid?

I would be fine with having to have the legal document signed by a judge rather than an ordained minister. If the government simply said that religious institutions could not perform legally binding marriages then why should I care? Real marriage to me is in the Church, a contract binding our finances and granting us tax benefits isn’t really a top priority for me. Besides, at least in my state, a woman still have to go to the courthouse to file for a name change anyway so there is already an aspect that the Church doesn’t cover.

The left wants everyone to say that same sex marriage is the same as man/woman marriage, that there is absolutely no difference. They will NOT stop until the law makes them equal across the board. To the left gays being denied marriage by any church is a hate crime, is a sign of illegal discrimination and they will sue to make churches marry gays.

Not allowing woman to be priests is a hate crime that is a sign of illegal discrimination, and the left will never allow that either! Because the left if full of people who hate the church, their are no liberal Christians! Also the Pope has never supported any sort of economic schema that the right would declare as socialistic! [/sarcasm]

 

[Los_Angeles]

Homosexual sins (sodomy) as far as I am aware are an abomination to the Lord.

If our country allows the legal instutionalization of sodomy, in my opinion I predict end times are here or very near.

If anything I have said is against the Catholic Church, let it be anathema.

 

[irishpatrick]

Not allowing woman to be priests is a hate crime that is a sign of illegal discrimination, and the left will never allow that either! Because the left if full of people who hate the church, their are no liberal Christians! Also the Pope has never supported any sort of economic schema that the right would declare as socialistic! [/sarcasm]

In the view of many on the left not allowing female Priests is a hate crime and they will go after that as well.

 

[irishpatrick]

Homosexual sins (sodomy) as far as I am aware are an abomination to the Lord.

If our country allows the legal instutionalization of sodomy, in my opinion I predict end times are here or very near.

If anything I have said is against the Catholic Church, let it be anathema.

The laws will not use the term “sodomy,” but it will equal the same.

 

[DawnInTexas]

pride is a sin

Grace is a Gift.

God Bless.
+Jesus, I Trust In You!
Love, Dawn

 

[PassingThru]

It is not a matter of what has happened; rather, it is about what will HAPPEN IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

OK, then explain, with some form of logic or example, how and why that will happen.

People opposite of your opinion could say “Catholics are out to take control of the country and will forcibly require submission to the Pope lest we be slaves!!!” Of course, you and I know that is silly. But if we were to believe this claim, it would require some very specific evidence, explanation, example, logic, etc in order to get me to believe it. You like to jump up and down with your prophesies of doom and gloom, but are a little short of evidence, explanation, example and logic. So far I have seen none.

No one is asking the Church to change its stance or teachings. But, likewise, we are asking to verify where the brimstone will come from…

 

[rlg94086]

Holy Cow.

There will be no cows involved.

Sheesh…I just asked a question, and PatrickSebast clarified his point in his response.

 

[DawnInTexas]

Luke 18:11

Click Here: Can Catholics Judge Others?

You quote the Gospel. Yet, claim no Religion. One would have to ask why you are here at CAF? To learn about the Catholic Faith? Or to antagonize?

I do not prescribe to the New Age Teaching of Judging nothing-you know, there is no right and wrong. As a Catholic, from the age of reason, around the age of 7, I am charged with knowing Right from Wrong.

I can judge actions-in fact, I am required to do so, as a Catholic-to Witness to the True Faith.
I can never judge a soul to Heaven or Hell. <-That is with God alone.

God Bless.
+Immaculate Heart of Mary, I Trust In You!
Love, Dawn

 

[rossum]

Oh and in regards to the thought that courts are going to try to force the Church to perform Gay Marriages, what is the defense for the point that no one has tried to force the Church to allow females into the priesthood based on discrimination clauses? Really the worst I could see happening is that churches may not be able to issue legal marriage licenses anymore, and I don’t see that ability as being terribly important.

Bigamy is a crime in all of Europe and all of the Americas. It has been a crime for a very long time. Yet in all that time no law has been passed outlawing religious marriages in mosques that allow a man to have up to four wives. Similarly no law has been passed forbidding Fundamentalist Mormons to marry more than one wife.

The state is perfectly able to distinguish between a legal marriage and a religious marriage. Some of the overblown fears I see here are not justified by history. You go to the church/mosque/synagogue/temple of your choice for your religious marriage and you go to the local Registrar for your legal marriage.

rossum

 

[DawnInTexas]

Speaking of listening it seems like you didn’t even listen to my point. I did not base anything on personal emotions, the only thing I said that could be construed as such was that IF I were to make a doomsday declaration I would base it on abortion. I do not however support doomsday declarations because that is not what the Church teaches. As I said hope is a central virtue of the Church, despair is a state of sin. Christ can conquer all things and will never give you more to bear than you are capable of withstanding. I can freely dispute what this “Wise Priest” is saying because a great many “Wise Priests” are not predicting the end of society. Yes the Pope has that that the Breakdown of Family leads to the Breakdown of Society, and that legalizing Gay Marriage lends to that, but he has never said that Gay Marriage would destroy society on its own. There is a very large gap between recognizing sin and its effects and being fearful of those effects. God and the Church can and will preserve until the last days, sometimes will be harder than other yes, but more saints come from struggle than from comfort.

Don’t take my word for it:

Click Here:Father Corapi-Contemporary Attacks on the Family

Click Here:Father Corapi-Wake Up America!

And, most important of all:

Click Here:Father Corapi-New War/Old War

God Bless.
+Jesus, I Trust In You.
Love, Dawn

 

[irishpatrick]

OK, then explain, with some form of logic or example, how and why that will happen.

I have explained this many times on many threads here, yet I will attempt to give another brief explanation. (btw, I am not jumping up and down…not in the least)

The left could not give a whit about the first amendment, they prove that all the time with the way they attack Christianity in a near relentless manner. No more nativities on public grounds, schools cannot sing Christma carols, it is now “Holiday Season,” rather than Christmas Season, etc. The fact that the first amendment exists is a problem for the left, so they circumvent the constitution by creating laws covering hate and discrimination, they do that with the direct purpose of circumventing our religious protections in the first amendment. For example:

*** Pharmacists in many states MUST by law violate their faith by filling birth control prescriptions or lose their jobs.

*** Catholic hospitals are being sued to perform abortions.

*** Catholic doctors are being sued for not prescribing birth control.

*** Catholic Charities of Boston had to shutdown their adoption services because laws were passed forcing them to either allow adoption to gay couples, or close their adoption services. They chose to close the services, not wanting to ignore the faith.

The list of those sorts of first amendment breeches are nearly endless todday, those are merely a small sample.

The left wants total equality for gays to marry. Many states, including CA have tried to get a legal compromise by passing civil unions (in CA civil unions had the same legal rights as marriage). Yet, the left did not accept civil unions because they want the entire deal…they want the word marriage, they want there to be NO difference between a hetero marriage and a gay couple marriage. If this was just about legal rights, than the left and gays would not care about the word, which means there is far more to their agenda than is obvious at first thought.

I believe the Supreme Court will affirm the CA judge’s decision by a vote of 5-4, based on how the court has voted with social issues. That in turn will open a faucet with same sex marriage literally spreading across the country in just a year or two. No state will fight it because the SC will have already affirmed CA’s ruling. The left will applaud it as a grand day for the nation, while faithful Christians will understand the true danger we will hev brought upon ourselves.

Once gay marriage is enshrined in law across the land, the left (along with some gays) will still feel unsatisfied because some churches will still refuse to marry them. They will than use hate crimes laws (created for this very purpose) to sue those churches into compliance. The financial burden will force the churches to either comply, or shut their doors. In either case the left will see it as a victory because the “hate filled” churches will have to comply or close. They will do all this outside the constitution by using hate crimes laws and discrimination laws to sue the churches into compliance and the courts (just like CA) will happily give the left what they want.

It ends like this: RC churches will be forced to make a choice: (1) Comply and know they are going against the faith; (2) Refuse to marry gays and be sued into oblivion.

It will happen and I think within 10 years we will see lawsuits of the type I speak here.

The left, as I briefly outlined above, has already ignored the first amendment and has found clever ways around it by suing and winning in the courts that tend to lean heavily to the left on social issues.

There is only one hope for the USA: the left must be utterly repudiated during this year’s November elections, or else everything I have predicted will come to pass.

 

[PassingThru]

I see a lot of issues related to medical practice (prescriptions, abortions at hospitals) and public services. Regardless of where you stand on these issues, they don’t dictated what one does in a Church/Synagogue/Temple. Most of it has to do with public funding. If you are getting public money, you have to play by the secular rules. Not all of your cases, but many.

They will than use hate crimes laws (created for this very purpose) to sue those churches into compliance. The financial burden will force the churches to either comply, or shut their doors. In either case the left will see it as a victory because the “hate filled” churches will have to comply or close. They will do all this outside the constitution by using hate crimes laws and discrimination laws to sue the churches into compliance and the courts (just like CA) will happily give the left what they want.

This is where you lose me. You basically say the law is passed, then this happens. Well, that is a big step that we have never seen. I can’t think of a single case where the law has entered a place of worship, and I really doubt it will happen now. Why can’t I sue as a Protestant to be married in your Church right now? Isnt that religious discrimination?

 

[DawnInTexas]

The breathless prediction that gay marrige will collapse society is precisely, word for word, the same language used by the Old South to defend slavery and by politicians in quite recent times to block inter-racial marriage and school integration. They truly believed that tinkering with God’s order of things would unleash our destruction. Has it? Anyone here want to publicly get behind a move to roll back civil rights?

Where has gay marriage or civil union produced armageddeon? Europe? They’re still alive and well as of this morning, or at least as well as any of us these days. Hetero folks still get married and have kids. It’s not illegal to be Catholic, and in fact the churches there still get a nice fat slice of tax money. Mass attendance is way down, but that happened long before gays were everl allowed to marry. How about South Africa? In the time period which includes gay marriage there, they’ve gone from a vicious police state to a functional, if imperfect democracy, all without the bloody civil war and dictator of the month that characterizes the rest of the continent.

How about Latin America. A number of countries and regions there which were quite recently under military dictatorships have legalized gay marriage. The people there are more solidly Catholic than most of Rome. So far as I know, there has been no mass movement to atheism or human sacrifice on the old Aztec pyramids.

“Christian civilization”, whatever that is, has survived the fall of the Roman Empire, at least two sackings of Rome, dual popes, popes that made Nero look like Fred Rogers, the Reformation, the Elightenment, Nazism and a worldwide atheist ideology with a nuclear arsenal. You sell your church far short if you think it won’t survive a few gay couples getting their social security survivor benefits in order.

This is a Catholic Forum. I, for one, have quoted (current) Catholic Teaching.

What you have written is not Magisterial Teaching of the Catholic Church. You claim no Religion. You come here and equate a Teaching of the Leaders of the Catholic Church to Racist Southern Politicians.

How dare you.

Take your New Age teaching-and spew it elsewhere. This is a Catholic Forum.

The Bible is being twisted and spun-perverted to seem like it is in acceptance of Homosexual Unions, and it is not. All are called to be “chaste” for their position in life. Catholics saw this coming back in 2008:

Obama’s Sermon on the Mount citation inaccurate, say religious leaders

…“I don’t think it [a same-sex union] should be called marriage, but I think that it is a legal right that they should have that is recognized by the state,” said Obama. “If people find that controversial then I would just refer them to the Sermon on the Mount, which I think is, in my mind, for my faith, more central than an obscure passage in Romans.”

The Sermon on the Mount, as recorded in the Gospel of Matthew, includes the Beatitudes, an endorsement of scriptural moral commandments, and condemnations of murder, divorce, and adultery. The passage in Romans (1:27) referred to by Obama condemns those who have rejected their creation in God’s image by their actions, among the acts mentioned is homosexual sex…

…“It seems pretty bogus using (the Bible) to justify civil unions,” McCaffrey told Cybercast News Service. "He should be using secular reasons to back it up.

“He can search the whole Bible and not find anything that justifies gay marriage or same-sex unions,” she said.

Other religious leaders were also puzzled by Obama’s connection of the Sermon on the Mount and same-sex unions.

“If he’s finding support for same-sex marriage from the Sermon on the Mount, he’s reading a different Bible than I’ve ever read,” Tom Minnery, senior vice president of government and public policy with Focus on the Family, told Cybercast News Service…

…“When I first heard Obama comment on the Sermon on the Mount and homosexuality I couldn’t grasp any relationship between the two,” Peterson said.

“There is no correlation at all. The Sermon on the Mount is for the saints, and it explains their suffering and their reward as a result of suffering for what is right for Christ’s sake. It doesn’t give blessings or approval to homosexual unions,” he said.

“I think maybe Senator Obama came up with the wrong passage,” Peterson said. “Unless he is just trying to deceive the people. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he could be so desperate to win he’ll just say anything.”

Obama recently published a letter on his campaign website promising that he would use the presidency as a “bully pulpit” for homosexual causes…

Saw it coming-now here it is.
God Bless.
+Jesus, I Trust In You!
Love, Dawn

 

[larkin31]

I see a lot of issues related to medical practice (prescriptions, abortions at hospitals) and public services. Regardless of where you stand on these issues, they don’t dictated what one does in a Church/Synagogue/Temple. Most of it has to do with public funding. If you are getting public money, you have to play by the secular rules. Not all of your cases, but many.

Exactly.

This is where you lose me. You basically say the law is passed, then this happens. Well, that is a big step that we have never seen. I can’t think of a single case where the law has entered a place of worship, and I really doubt it will happen now. Why can’t I sue as a Protestant to be married in your Church right now? Isnt that religious discrimination?

Again, correct. He/she is simply very afraid, but also irrational.

 

[DawnInTexas]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnInTexas
I am thankful for God removing the scales from my eyes to see what is really going on-and to recognize evil and good for what it is.

A great Grace received.

Pray the Rosary every day (meditating on Christ’s Life on earth), and you also will receive this Grace.

Some have more, some have less. Some “see” more, some less. It is based upon what they (we) can handle at a particular time. As time passes, and we remain in prayer (and sacrifice) we receive more.

So yes, we have received a special gift, this Grace.

It does not necessarily make us more special. It is a Gift from God.

God Bless.
+Jesus, I Trust In You.
Love, Dawn

pride is a sin

As your being an Agnostic-Former Protestant, let me fill you in on a Teaching of the Catholic Church:
There are 7 Gifts of God the Holy Spirit-We receive the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit when we are infused with sanctifying grace, the life of God within us—as, for example, when we receive a sacrament worthily. These seven gifts help us to live a Christian life.:

The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are:
-Wisdom
-Understanding
-Counsel
-Fortitude (or courage)
-Knowledge
-Piety
-Fear of the Lord.

Click Here:The Gifts of the Holy Spirit

There are 7 Sacraments in the Catholic Church:
Click Here:The Seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church

The more of the 7 Sacraments of the Catholic Church received worthily (in a State of Grace)-the more Sanctifying Grace-the more Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Call it Pride if you want. The Catholic Church calls it a Gift. We all receive different Gifts. The more you receive the 7 Sacraments worthily, pray and ask, the more the Gifts.

God Bless.
+Jesus, I Trust In You.
Love, Dawn

PS Then, there’s also Actual Grace…