Gay Marriage: The Death Knell of Christiany

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Tis_Bearself said:
However, if you make negative generalizations without hard evidence, people will likely accuse you of bias or bigotry.
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You have limited hard evidence to studies that academics produce. So no hard evidence existed until the modern age. There is no reason I should accept that standard. I don’t mind being accused of bias or bigotry. It happens a lot to shut down discussion.
niceatheist said:
Don’t play coy here. YOu know exactly what’s required. Either back up your claim with actual studies and statistics showing a causal link, or admit that you simply made it up based on a few anecdotal examples you could think of off the top of your head. You know, do the honest thing, and don’t violate the Eighth Commandment, and bear false witness against your gay brothers.
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I explained exactly how I came to my opinion. I’ve already admitted it.

So the eight commandment was violated by anyone who had an opinion prior to the modern university with statistics and peer reviewed studies? That is pretty obviously an untenable position.
niceatheist said:
Yes, if you’re going to assert the factuality of your opinions, then the onus is on you to back them up. Otherwise, at best, you’re just simply spreading baseless innuendo, or at worst, you’re out and out lying and trying to cover it up by saying “but it’s just my opinion.”

If you’ve got a problem with homosexuals, then that’s your business, but if you’re going to assert there’s a link between homosexuality and serial killing, then you’re intentionally trying to make an assertion that somehow homosexuality leads to serial killing, and it’s become painfully clear that you have no such evidence, so why is it that you would make that claim?
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How can I be lying when stating my opinion? I said it is my opinion that homosexuality is linked to serial killing and killings involving mutilations, particularly genital mutilation. What evidence do you have that this isn’t my opinion? Do you have a peer review study of my opinion?

Your position is I can’t form an opinion because all opinions must be based on extensive studies. Of course I know that game. Even if a link was found in a study then homosexuality wouldn’t be the cause but mental anguish suffering from bigots like me (even though I’m not a bigot and generally treat everyone well). Because studies of human behavior can’t find a ‘cause’ of behavior. They can only find correlations. No evidence is ever enough which is why as I stated from the beginning this is my opinion based on observation.
 
exnihilo said:
Your position is I can’t form an opinion because all opinions must be based on extensive studies. Of course I know that game. Even if a link was found in a study then homosexuality wouldn’t be the cause but mental anguish suffering from bigots like me (even though I’m not a bigot and generally treat everyone well). Because studies of human behavior can’t find a ‘cause’ of behavior. They can only find correlations. No evidence is ever enough which is why as I stated from the beginning this is my opinion based on observation.
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I’ll be charitable and state your opinion is based on ignorance. If you are an honest person, at this point you would admit that your opinion is baseless, and abandon it.

The fact is not only have you not got to the point of “cause”, in this case, you don’t even have an actual meaningful correlation, causation or no causation. So do the honest thing, admit that your belief on a link between serial killers and homosexuality has no foundation, and move on. Otherwise, there’s only one conclusion to draw about someone who keeps asserting a baseless accusation against some identifiable group, and that is that they are intentionally promoting a biased, unevidenced narrative to malign that population.

No one says you have to like homosexuals, but your own religion states that bearing false witness is a sin, and whether you are knowingly bearing false witness, or simply out of sheer ignorance, a lie is a lie.
 
niceatheist said:
I’ll be charitable and state your opinion is based on ignorance. If you are an honest person, at this point you would admit that your opinion is baseless, and abandon it.
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That’s not charitable at all. I am an honest person. You are bing uncharitable by implying I am not. My opinion isn’t baseless. I have repeatedly stated the basis for it. You claim that I can only have an opinion based on academic peer reviewed studies. What study do you have that proves that opinion?

What is the burden of proof? What proves the claim? How am I resorting to prejudice by making an observation?
 
exnihilo said:
What is the burden of proof? What proves the claim? How am I resorting to prejudice by making an observation?
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We just discussed what constitutes evidence above. You didn’t like the definition and now you seem to be obfuscating.

If you want to have an opinion, have it, but please own it and say that is your opinion and be prepared to take others’ criticism of it. Don’t play games.
 
exnihilo said:
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niceatheist:
I’ll be charitable and state your opinion is based on ignorance. If you are an honest person, at this point you would admit that your opinion is baseless, and abandon it.
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That’s not charitable at all. I am an honest person. You are bing uncharitable by implying I am not. My opinion isn’t baseless. I have repeatedly stated the basis for it. You claim that I can only have an opinion based on academic peer reviewed studies. What study do you have that proves that opinion?

What is the burden of proof? What proves the claim? How am I resorting to prejudice by making an observation?
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The problem being you’re not making an informed observation, you even admit that much, but you persist in asserting that somehow your observation has some validity.

Want to prove to me you’re an honest person. Admit your observation is invalid. I don’t want you to say it’s correct or incorrect, I want you to admit that it is baseless, that you have nothing to support it, that it is purely anecdotal based on the flimsiest of reasoning.

At that point, I’ll buy your honest. But if you keep trying to defend these baseless slur against a group of people, then I can only draw one conclusion. You wish to slander homosexuals by asserting they, as a group, produce all these notorious serial killers.

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t refuse to retract or offer some rather pathetic justification that it’s “your observation”, and consider yourself honest in this regard. It’s that simple. Having an opinion isn’t a justification. If my opinion was that you killed kittens, would you feel that a justified opinion? If I went on a web forum and declared that you killed kittens, would you accept that “well, that’s his opinion…” In both cases, the opinion appears to be wrong and extremely prejudicial. It is a bad opinion. Full stop.

If you have data showing a link between serial killers and homosexuality, provide it. Otherwise, do the honest thing and retract.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
We just discussed what constitutes evidence above. You didn’t like the definition and now you seem to be obfuscating.

If you want to have an opinion, have it, but please own it and say that is your opinion and be prepared to take others’ criticism of it. Don’t play games.
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Where is your peer reviewed academic study showing you must have peer reviewed academic studies to have an opinion? It is obviously a self defeating position.
niceatheist said:
If you have data showing a link between serial killers and homosexuality, provide it. Otherwise, do the honest thing and retract.
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It isn’t honest to disclaim an opinion. That would be dishonest.

As it turns out there is evidence to support my position:

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/2009/02/violence-and-homosexuality/

But, I know this evidence won’t be sufficient.
 
exnihilo said:
Where is your peer reviewed academic study showing you must have peer reviewed academic studies to have an opinion? It is obviously a self defeating position.
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No, it’s not, and your “argument” is not making any sort of rational sense, so this is where I wish you peace and step out.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
No, it’s not, and your “argument” is not making any sort of rational sense, so this is where I wish you peace and step out.
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Yes it is. If you set up a standard of proof that your own standard of proof can’t meet then that is self defeating.
 
Just give it up. You made a rubbish claim. Admit it and move on. Show a little of that Christian humility I here so much about. Oh, and another Christian thing you can do, don’t spread hateful things about people.
 
exnihilo said:
Yes it is. If you set up a standard of proof that your own standard of proof can’t meet then that is self defeating.
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I’ve done some research, and cannot find any significant link that most serial killers are homosexual and mutilate their victim’s genitals. There are some serial killers who are men who kill men and mutilate their victims genitals but more often than not, it is men killing women and mutilating the women’s genitals and breasts.

(Never thought I would be writing that on a Catholic forum) 😯

I can understand why you might, anecdotally, think that.

However, it is baseless. Most victims of serial killers are women. You are removing and changing a whole narrative, which impacts the whole world. Like the ‘Highway of Tears’.

This also does not help LGBITQ* readers, who will feel even further marginalised.

We are, in the thread, not only blaming homosexuals for wanting to marry, but that they are destroying Christianity, AND homosexual men kill and do depraved attacks.

If anything, it is we who are killing Christianity. 😔
 
Speaking as a person who struggles with SSA if I didn’t truly understand the Church’s teachings on homosexuality I would view many of these comments as hateful and discouraging. Not going to lie. What we should be discussing is how to better approach people who experience these attractions and help them understand their place in the Church and how God views them, rather than equating them with cereal killers. The death knell of Christianity Would be our secular society, but then again our Church cannot easily be destroyed
 
Joe1 said:
Speaking as a person who struggles with SSA if I didn’t truly understand the Church’s teachings on homosexuality I would view many of these comments as hateful and discouraging.
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I am so sorry that you’ve had to read these comments. 🌷

Keyboard warriors forget that there are real people reading this who bear this cross. I keep saying we need to approach each other with kindness and compassion.

😔
 
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I would never compare people with SSA or those who in engage in homosexual behavior with serial killers. I would like to point out that the Church does not recognize gay marriage although some countries do. That said, I follow LGBT news sites to get a perspective on what certain groups that fall under the LGBT category are thinking and why.
  1. “I was born this way.”
  2. “I don’t need fixing. There’s nothing wrong with me.”
  3. Gay marriage is described as “marriage equality.” From the marriageequality web site:
"Our Vision & Mission

“We believe in a world that protects and celebrates families without regard to sexual orientation or gender identity. Our mission is to secure legally recognized civil marriage equality for LGBTQ families at the state and federal level through grassroots organizing, education, action and partnerships.”
  1. There are those with SSA who don’t want to engage in homosexual activity but when trying to seek counseling, they were denied by law.
  2. But there remain those that want to stop their homosexual behavior. From the pfox web site:
"What We Do

"Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays & Gays (PFOX) is a national non-profit organization committed to helping ex-gays and parents and friends of gays who want help, hope and community.

"PFOX exists to educate, support, and advocate for individuals and parents on the issue of same-sex attraction, and increase others’ understanding and acceptance of the ex-gay community.

“We believe that every person seeking positive life change needs and deserves the love and support of family, friends, the community, and the church. That’s why we offer a place for help, a place for truth, and a place for the ex-gay to participate in the conversation about same-sex attraction.”
  1. I’m not advocating for anything like forced conversion, but people who want to stop their homosexual behavior should be heard. And understood as well.
I don’t want to hate anyone. I do get angry at people sometimes but it’s never about sexual orientation. Those people who are Catholics and who want to follow Church teaching about chastity should be encouraged, the same as single heterosexuals. But we are surrounded by media, TV in particular, and what passes for the news, that want to and are strongly discouraging all of us from that. That is where our common struggle lies. Two women kissing, two men kissing, and constant talk about oppression. The way out of a bad situation can involve not putting yourself in situations that involve non-chaste behavior, but seeing it acted out in movies and TV a lot, I watch enough to be informed but I reject these ideas being constantly thrown in our face. There used to be something called privacy as well.

There are mixed messages out there. Some homosexual persons do not believe in the institution of marriage either.
 
edwest211 said:
There are those with SSA who don’t want to engage in homosexual activity but when trying to seek counseling, they were denied by law.
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I don’t know that “counseling” is denied anybody. But offering a treatment program designed to eliminate the inclination might be - and may perhaps be a misrepresentation.
 
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Rau said:
I don’t know that “counseling” is denied anybody. But offering a treatment program designed to eliminate the inclination might be - and may perhaps be a misrepresentation.
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Gay conversion therapy and pray the gay away generally are not recommended by mental health professionals.

It’s better to accept who you are, and then try not to sin. Like the rest of humanity.
 
The parent-child relationship is being violated by outside persons and groups. Parents, children and mental health providers need to all be on the same page. One criteria is: do I, a person under 18, feel uncomfortable with my feelings regarding SSA? Now, young human beings develop in stages. Some will grow out of SSA attraction entirely, while some may not. In either case, those seeking help testified they wanted it, in court. Those who claimed it was harmful were not looking at it on a case by case basis. Now I’m against forcing anyone to do anything but when a minor goes to a parent and wants some mental health advice from a mental health professional, he or she should get it, knowing it can be stopped at any time. “Pray the gay away” is an incorrect addition.
 
“I have seen a few posts here about the gates of hell not prevailing against the Church. That would be the supernatural aspect of the Church. Doctrine will always remain intact. That does not mean the people of the Church can’t go corrupt. That also does not mean confusion from high places will not happen.”

Yes, I agree, and I think the sensationalism of the gay equality marriage will subside in time. The next objective may be to overturn laws against polygamy. The role of the Church is to be a shining city on a hill, radiating the truth. It’s hard for people to admit their errors, but the Church has to be there for those souls looking for consolation and direction.
 
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