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misstherese
Guest
I have seen a few posts here about the gates of hell not prevailing against the Church. That would be the supernatural aspect of the Church. Doctrine will always remain intact. That does not mean the people of the Church can’t go corrupt. That also does not mean confusion from high places will not happen.
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niceatheist
Guest
Good, then provide it.
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theCardinalbird
Guest
What data do you need?
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exnihilo
Guest
So no one could ever draw conclusions until the modern scientific method and research? I’m not basing my conclusion on no evidence. As I said I’ve observed many examples.
Again, with this we have professional decision makers. That means academics. We lowly peons must wait until the academics pronounce judgment.
As much as people denounce the Catholic Church for dictating belief to people they want to replace it with something far worse. At least the Catholic Church was looking upwards towards Heaven. The academics are looking downward. If not to Hell at least to the ground.
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LaetificetJuventutem
Guest
Oh, no, don’t follow paranoid SSPXers parroting right-wing Evangelical Protestant craziness, people use the thin veneer of religion to cover up what is really just extreme politics.
No, gay marriage is not “the death knell of Christianity”, the State offering civil marriages to same-sex couples is not going to usher in the apocalypse. No church is forced to offer sacramental matrimony to same-sex couples.
Civil marriage licenses mainly have to do with finances, couples get tax breaks by being able to file jointly, along with contractual legal rights, wills, power of attorney, things like being able to visit someone in the hospital as a legally recognized family member.
There has always been a distinction between a civil marriage & a sacramental marriage- some couples historically eligible for one but not the other.
E.g. until a U.S. Supreme Court federally ruling overruling state marriage laws in 1967, in large parts of the U.S., a black man & white woman who were Catholic could get married at a church, but were legally unable to be married under anti-miscegenation laws (and thus legally prohibited from cohabiting & having a family).
Prior to the federal SCOTUS ruling in Loving v. Virginia , the state court in Virginia famously invoked God in its opinion upholding laws against interracial marriage. (“Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.”)
Is the State granting civil marriage licenses to same-sex couples more offensive & antithetical to Christian values than the State forbidding civil marriage licenses to “one man, one woman” who happened to be of different races?
The same right-wing ‘Christian’ political movement invoked God in their lost cause fight against civil same-sex marriage culminating in 2015 SCOTUS ruling, but the ‘Christian’ right’s thin veneer has been fully exposed by, if nothing else, their overwhelming warm embrace of thrice-married serial philanderer, sexual predator, profane casino magnate, insatiably greedy narcissistic billionaire sociopath who admits he never asks God for forgiveness & couldn’t name a single favorite Bible verse besides the overruled Old Testament “eye for an eye” line…
…Donald Trump & his Republican Party, who wouldn’t be in power if not for conservative Evangelical Protestants- in unholy alliance with American Catholic neocons, which Pope Francis recently ‘allowed’ to be discussed with grave concern in La Civiltà Cattolica.
“Gay marriage” became law 2 years ago, how does that explain the past 50 years, divorce rates skyrocketed, more than 1 in 2 marriages end in divorce; Trump-style serial divorces & remarriages, incl. among professed Catholics, have become commonplace.
Abortion-on-demand is widespread, used as “birth control” by heterosexuals sleeping around with the first person they meet in a bar. Gays aren’t responsible for any of this.
There are issues threatening Christianity, but gay marriage? No.
No, gay marriage is not “the death knell of Christianity”, the State offering civil marriages to same-sex couples is not going to usher in the apocalypse. No church is forced to offer sacramental matrimony to same-sex couples.
Civil marriage licenses mainly have to do with finances, couples get tax breaks by being able to file jointly, along with contractual legal rights, wills, power of attorney, things like being able to visit someone in the hospital as a legally recognized family member.
There has always been a distinction between a civil marriage & a sacramental marriage- some couples historically eligible for one but not the other.
E.g. until a U.S. Supreme Court federally ruling overruling state marriage laws in 1967, in large parts of the U.S., a black man & white woman who were Catholic could get married at a church, but were legally unable to be married under anti-miscegenation laws (and thus legally prohibited from cohabiting & having a family).
Prior to the federal SCOTUS ruling in Loving v. Virginia , the state court in Virginia famously invoked God in its opinion upholding laws against interracial marriage. (“Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.”)
Is the State granting civil marriage licenses to same-sex couples more offensive & antithetical to Christian values than the State forbidding civil marriage licenses to “one man, one woman” who happened to be of different races?
The same right-wing ‘Christian’ political movement invoked God in their lost cause fight against civil same-sex marriage culminating in 2015 SCOTUS ruling, but the ‘Christian’ right’s thin veneer has been fully exposed by, if nothing else, their overwhelming warm embrace of thrice-married serial philanderer, sexual predator, profane casino magnate, insatiably greedy narcissistic billionaire sociopath who admits he never asks God for forgiveness & couldn’t name a single favorite Bible verse besides the overruled Old Testament “eye for an eye” line…
…Donald Trump & his Republican Party, who wouldn’t be in power if not for conservative Evangelical Protestants- in unholy alliance with American Catholic neocons, which Pope Francis recently ‘allowed’ to be discussed with grave concern in La Civiltà Cattolica.
“Gay marriage” became law 2 years ago, how does that explain the past 50 years, divorce rates skyrocketed, more than 1 in 2 marriages end in divorce; Trump-style serial divorces & remarriages, incl. among professed Catholics, have become commonplace.
Abortion-on-demand is widespread, used as “birth control” by heterosexuals sleeping around with the first person they meet in a bar. Gays aren’t responsible for any of this.
There are issues threatening Christianity, but gay marriage? No.
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SuperLuigi
Guest
Yes, and thanks for asking.
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niceatheist
Guest
You can draw any conclusion you like. But if you want to have a conclusion that is any way supportable, then yes, you should have some actual data.niceatheist:
So no one could ever draw conclusions until the modern scientific method and research? I’m not basing my conclusion on no evidence. As I said I’ve observed many examples.
Oh give me a break. You’re talking about the rights of a lot of people, and you want those rights to be abridged or eliminated based on what; you’re subjective feelings on the matter?
I don’t denounce the Catholic Church at all. It is essentially a private organization and can set any rules it likes for its members. The problems start when it tries to assert that its positions must be taken by the wider society. I don’t feel my actions should be bound by the Church’s teachings or official statements on any given topic, as I’m not a member, and yet you’re trying to argue precisely that, that the Church’s teachings must be imposed via force of law.
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ChunkMonk
Guest
Mistaking the symptom for the disease.
Sodomy becoming acceptable is a product of our hard-hearts, and it in turn hardens hearts, creating a vicious cycle.
Will it end the Church as we know it? Yes. And good riddance. We need a narrow path Church. Let the children of Satan have their broad path “church”.
Sodomy becoming acceptable is a product of our hard-hearts, and it in turn hardens hearts, creating a vicious cycle.
Will it end the Church as we know it? Yes. And good riddance. We need a narrow path Church. Let the children of Satan have their broad path “church”.
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omgriley
Guest
Take advice from one of the greatest soon-to-be saints, and one day Doctor of the Church:
“The world should profit by experience and give up expecting the Church to die. If a bell had been tolled on a thousand different occasions and the funeral never took place, men would soon begin to regard the funeral as a joke. So it is with the Church. The notice of her execution has been posted but the execution has never take place. Science killed her, and still she was there; history interred her, but still she was alive; modernism slew her, but still she lived.
Even civilizations are born, rise to greatness, then decline, suffer and die, but they never rise again. But the Church does rise again; in fact she is constantly finding her way out of the grave because she has a Captain who found His way out of the grave.” —Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
“The world should profit by experience and give up expecting the Church to die. If a bell had been tolled on a thousand different occasions and the funeral never took place, men would soon begin to regard the funeral as a joke. So it is with the Church. The notice of her execution has been posted but the execution has never take place. Science killed her, and still she was there; history interred her, but still she was alive; modernism slew her, but still she lived.
Even civilizations are born, rise to greatness, then decline, suffer and die, but they never rise again. But the Church does rise again; in fact she is constantly finding her way out of the grave because she has a Captain who found His way out of the grave.” —Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
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theCardinalbird
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I agree that sodomy is a disease and that it has nearly destroyed the perfect definition of marriage, however I don’t think it’s best to let “the children of Satan have their broad path church” because we can still save them don’t you think? If we keep on showing that Sodomy is not normal and is condemned by the true church and explain with compassion what we understand from our faith and biology, then some will convert from this disastrous idealogy. People wake up to the truth, I certainly did.
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Rau
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Try to follow. I said there is not sufficient data to demonstrate actual outcomes.
I said that reason allows us to identify the preferred model.
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PJM
Guest
NO the RCC is NOT in danger of collapse
Jesus [GOD] Himself so assured us… Mt 16:18-19 …“AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NEVER PREVAIL” That is an Infallible promise by our All=powerful PERFECT God.
Sin has existed from the Time of Adam & Eve, ratified by Judas, and today’s pop-culture pales to both of these examples. Even as grotesque as it is.
Pray very much
Patrick
Jesus [GOD] Himself so assured us… Mt 16:18-19 …“AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NEVER PREVAIL” That is an Infallible promise by our All=powerful PERFECT God.
Sin has existed from the Time of Adam & Eve, ratified by Judas, and today’s pop-culture pales to both of these examples. Even as grotesque as it is.
Pray very much
Patrick
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
And those that are gay are closeted and not a part of a the LGBTQ community. It’s the isolation that is the problem, not the homosexuality.
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
What do you mean by heritage? Family heritage, like who is great-great grandpa or ethnic heritage and how do you think is it important in this context?
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
We should be asking that but before we ban gays from being parents we should probably get a handle on the children in foster care, those being raised by grandparents or other family members and those who are slipping through the cracks. By your definition they are in less than ideal family situations.
This one is so poignant to me. I would have be far better off being raised by two gay men than raised in the family I was with my dad. Knowing my heritage wouldn’t have been that great either.
But back to the point: Gay or lesbian couples don’t live in a vacuum and have friends and family of the opposite sex. And while some choose surrogacy many choose to have the other biological parent in the child’s life.
See my first reply to you. The social experiment began long before SSM.
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ATraveller
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If strawmen are good at scaring crows, I suppose they’re great for knocking down.
I don’t recall him or her saying everything was great. No one here cheered domestic abuse. The focus was on the effects of divorce, abortion and contraception.
And most aren’t even practising Catholics. There’s good chance if they were quizzed, the vast majority couldn’t even give a simple explanation of what the Trinity is or the Catholic position on baptism.
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Rau
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True, but redefining marriage tends to suggest the conclusions are in and they are good.
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
I don’t know about that. If anything it’s “we can’t be worse parents than straight people.” I know of a lot of gay couples who have had kids by adoption, surrogacy, or from a previous relationship but the ones I know IRL have been foster parents first. There is a dearth of foster homes, good ones. And if some worry that the kids are being “indoctrinated” I’ll mention some kids I knew whose foster parents forced them to go to their church or punished them if they ever participated in Catholic activities. Or the foster parents who try to sabotage reunification of the children with their parents. If the gays are good to them and the religious folk not so much I think it’s “Christians” who have aided and abetted in kids finding a community that accepts them, the LGBTQ community.
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Rau
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I am sure that is true. Let the government agencies pick and choose foster families as they see fit. But redefinition of marriage to include SSM makes a global, not a case by case, statement. It is a societal statement about norms.
How often do we hear rationales such as this: “This woman who gave birth to her son was not a good mother, so there is no reason to prefer birth mothers (in general implied)”. What’s next: assess mothering skills and re-assign all kids to the best candidates?
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