Gay Masses Continue in Archdiocese of Westminster

[Rocinante]

No, but to be honest I think that may be in response to the Church’s sex abuse scandal more then anything else. Almost all the children who were abused were boys. I’ve only heard of 1 girl being abused.

Though it needs to be noted that GAY DOES NOT EQUAL PEDOPHILE! :tsktsk:

it is obvious (to you and i at least) that being gay doesn’t make one a pedophile. in fact i heard that male pedophiles who pray on boys nevertheless tend to prefer women in their adult sexual attractions. that’s why the news that the church is somehow addressing the pedophilia problem by forbidding gay priests seemed so strange to me and at odds with your claim that the church does not condemn homosexuals and only condemns homosexual acts (given that priests are celibate anyway so are not involved in heterosexual or homosexual acts).

anyway, adam, i have a lot of respect for the integrity with which you approach your catholicism in light of your homosexuality. i think that the catholic church is wrong to condemn homosexuality as a disorder, and that you are not living your best life by forgoing companionship in the name of what you seem to see as purity. but i respect what you are trying to do and i wish you the best. you have a tough row to hoe in reconciling what you know about yourself with your religious beliefs (assuming you don’t see yourself as an abomination (which of course you are not!)).

rocinante

 

[Elizabeth502]

Point being that the “average” everyday and weekend mass is the greatest channel of healing on earth. It does not need to be focused on a particular disorder, but it remains a blanket which covers any and all disorders.

Totally, brother. If anyone thinks he, she, or they need a particular “Mass” for a particular disorder, which can’t possibly be addressed by an “ordinary” Mass, then he, she, or they does not understand the meaning of the Mass.

Not a prayer group. Not a support group. Not an advocacy group. Not a political group. Not a social group → all of which can be channels to discuss common needs particular to that group.

But a Mass, which unites the single mystical Body of Christ.

 

[Elizabeth502]

i heard that male pedophiles who pray on boys nevertheless tend to prefer women in their adult sexual attractions.

You meant p-r-e-y. The other is kind of a funny image.

 

[PaulinVA]

Adam, I think I have a thought that might explain why a “LGBTQ” Mass is a bad idea.

Right now in our culture, any discussion of “the gay topic” involves morality, politics, and a whole host of other issues. There are buzz words that are used to indicate certain things.

To have a “gay” Mass or a “LGBTQ” Mass is first of all a political statement. It’s a statement by the gay community that they have the “power” to force a Mass just for them. It’s a moral statement that there are gay people in the Church who accept the “gay lifestyle” - the active participation in and support of same sex relationships.

Quite frankly, identifying who you are by your sexual partners is hard to understand for most straight people. We don’t see you as anything special, needing special rights, special Masses, or anything else. You are just like the rest of us - struggling through life with our burdens trying to work out our salvation.

 

[Rocinante]

Totally, brother. If anyone thinks he, she, or they need a particular “Mass” for a particular disorder, which can’t possibly be addressed by an “ordinary” Mass, then he, she, or they does not understand the meaning of the Mass.

or maybe anyone who doesn’t see the need for such a mass doesn’t understand the meaning or what it is like to be homosexual and catholic

 

[Elizabeth502]

or maybe anyone who doesn’t see the need for such a mass doesn’t understand the meaning or what it is like to be homosexual and catholic

No. You’re “theology” (“spiriitual but not Catholic”) is way off. If you understood the Mass, let alone anything about the compassion that is commanded of all Catholics to have, you would not draw an equation between those who state the facts about sacramental theology with those who supposedly don’t understand what it’s like to be a member of a church which defines certain weaknesses, habits, tendencies, etc. as disorders. Again, there are people who are born into alcoholic families and into many disorders who do understand what the Mass is about.

I agree with PaulinVA and po18guy: We all have our disorders which are every bit as difficult to resist as having SSA is. Many people are chained to their non-SSA inclinations, some of these by upbringing, some of them by later influences, some of them even by genetic influences. The difference is, they don’t make it a point to identify with their disorders. That is the only difference.

It’s difficult to be gay and Catholic. (I’ve said that on many threads; you just don’t bother to read those.)
It’s difficult to be alcoholic and Catholic.
It’s difficult to be a drug-abuser and Catholic. Just ask Fr. John Corapi about his torturous personal journey.
It’s difficult to be a woman and have an attraction to dangerous men, because dangerous men give you a thrill and an adrenaline rush.
It’s difficult to be a gossiper and Catholic, when you are surrounded by malicious gossip daily at work (or elsewhere), and have to pray mightily to resist contributing.
It’s difficult to be authentically Catholic & maintain one’s honesty & integrity in the 21st century world where corruption abounds and dishonesty is an everyday casual occurrence.
It’s difficult to be a straight man in the Catholic church and addicted to porn. Catholic priests state unequivocally that this is the single most frequently confessed sin. Not gay sex, or temptations to gay sex, but addiction to porn.

Welcome to the real world of real Catholics who struggle heroically every day but don’t demand Masses for their disorders.

 

[Rocinante]

No. You’re “theology” (“spiriitual but not Catholic”) is way off. If you understood the Mass, let alone anything about the compassion that is commanded of all Catholics to have, you would not draw an equation between those who state the facts about sacramental theology with those who supposedly don’t understand what it’s like to be a member of a church which defines certain weaknesses, habits, tendencies, etc. as disorders. Again, there are people who are born into alcoholic families and into many disorders who do understand what the Mass is about.

I agree with PaulinVA and po18guy: We all have our disorders which are every bit as difficult to resist as having SSA is. Many people are chained to their non-SSA inclinations, some of these by upbringing, some of them by later influences, some of them even by genetic influences. The difference is, they don’t make it a point to identify with their disorders. That is the only difference.

It’s difficult to be gay and Catholic. (I’ve said that on many threads; you just don’t bother to read those.)
It’s difficult to be alcoholic and Catholic.
It’s difficult to be a drug-abuser and Catholic. Just ask Fr. John Corapi about his torturous personal journey.
It’s difficult to be a woman and have an attraction to dangerous men, because dangerous men give you a thrill and an adrenaline rush.
It’s difficult to be a gossiper and Catholic, when you are surrounded by malicious gossip daily at work (or elsewhere), and have to pray mightily to resist contributing.
It’s difficult to be authentically Catholic & maintain one’s honesty & integrity in the 21st century world where corruption abounds and dishonesty is an everyday casual occurrence.
It’s difficult to be a straight man in the Catholic church and addicted to porn. Catholic priests state unequivocally that this is the single most frequently confessed sin. Not gay sex, or temptations to gay sex, but addiction to porn.

Welcome to the real world of real Catholics who struggle heroically every day but don’t demand Masses for their disorders.

you’ve made it clear here that you just don’t know what it must be like for a homosexual catholic. sure, we are all sinners. the difference is that in all these cases these “disorders” can be kept private (so long as the porn addict has the good sense to leave the mags at home) whereas a single man or woman who is SSA will always be faced with awkward questions and under suspicion of being “disordered” or more likely as some sort of abomination.

 

[Adam1986]

I may very well have done so. Frankly, if someone asks if you suffer from SSA, it’s none of their danged business, is it? Exception: If they also suffer from SSA (just as I suffer from my disorders), it may be a pastoral opportunity for you.
No, your right it’s non of there business. Some people do ask though and I feel it’s best to use discretion on who you tell, in case they are asking to pick a fight, be abusive, etc. Most people don’t ask for that reason though. In regards to your exception, yes if you are chaste then it would be a good way to show a good example to someone who agrees with the Church’s teaching.

My bad. Just another of my failed attempts to be witty.
That’s OK. No harm done.
I just didn’t want anyone getting the wrong idea about me. The same way no one are here who agrees with what the Church teaches on homosexuality wants to have someone say they hate some who is gay.

Point being that the “average” everyday and weekend mass is the greatest channel of healing on earth. It does not need to be focused on a particular disorder, but it remains a blanket which covers any and all disorders.

Here’s how I see it: The desire for, or demand for masses which focus on a particular disorder are, by their nature, exclusive and not inclusive. As Newbie2 put it: if a mass is offered in conjunction with a retreat or seminar addressing SSA, perfect! But, the desire for recognition, for acknowledgment, for affirmation, tolerance or acceptance is pretty much associated strictly with those who suffer from SSA. I see the request for masses for those suffering from SSA as deriving from this aspect of the disorder itself.
Don’t you think a Mass like that could be a way of the Catholic Church saying that as long as you are chaste, then you are as much of a Catholic as someone who is married with 5 kids? Maybe then that Mass might help a gay person, who is thinking of leaving the Church to stay?

Those who suffer from SSA often (but not always) must bear their crosses in a very public way. Does this make them superior to, or inferior to those whose crosses are painfully private? Certainly not! A cross is nothing to be proud of - it is the scar left by the branding iron of our failed human nature. It is our task to bear its burden in patient humility.

 

[Adam1986]

it is obvious (to you and i at least) that being gay doesn’t make one a pedophile.Yes to you, and I, and many people on this board. But not all. I remember reading on here when there was discussion on gay marriage, someone said how long until pedophiles get to marry there victims? Someone else said not long since NAMBLA?? (the pedophile group) AND THE GAY RIGHTS GROUPS are already working on that. That upset me very much and was the main reason for me to put that in my post.

in fact i heard that male pedophiles who pray on boys nevertheless tend to prefer women in their adult sexual attractions. Really? Not to argue, but are you sure they want to be with women as well? That it’s not them just “settling for women” or trying to act like what they’re doing is not sick? that’s why the news that the church is somehow addressing the pedophilia problem by forbidding gay priests seemed so strange to me and at odds with your claim that the church does not condemn homosexuals and only condemns homosexual acts (given that priests are celibate anyway so are not involved in heterosexual or homosexual acts).
I could see the Church just not wanting there to be any more problems and thinking that it is the best solution. Both for the Church itself AND for PR, the media, etc.

anyway, adam, i have a lot of respect for the integrity with which you approach your catholicism in light of your homosexuality.Thank you. i think that the catholic church is wrong to condemn homosexuality as a disorder, and that you are not living your best life by forgoing companionship in the name of what you seem to see as purity. I do too, lol but i respect what you are trying to do and i wish you the best. **Thanks. **you have a tough row to hoe in reconciling what you know about yourself with your religious beliefs Yep I do, lol(assuming you don’t see yourself as an abomination (which of course you are not!)). Thank you I know that.

rocinante

Thank you for your response. It was really nice.

 

[Adam1986]

Adam, I think I have a thought that might explain why a “LGBTQ” Mass is a bad idea.

Right now in our culture, any discussion of “the gay topic” involves morality, politics, and a whole host of other issues. There are buzz words that are used to indicate certain things.
Do you think that maybe having a gay Mass could help in lessening the “hot button” topic that homosexuality is? Maybe it could help some people realize that talking about homosexuality does not have to only be about gay marriage or “the gay lifestyle”? That there is more to it then just a few “hot topic” issues?

To have a “gay” Mass or a “LGBTQ” Mass is first of all a political statement. It’s a statement by the gay community that they have the “power” to force a Mass just for them. No one can force the Church to do anything. And no one who would want a gay Mass would want to try to force a church to give it to them. It would be two VERY different groups of people. It’s a moral statement that there are gay people in the Church who accept the “gay lifestyle” - the active participation in and support of same sex relationships.
That’s not true at all. It’s only a Mass for people who are gay NOT for those who are gay and unchaste. There was nothing in the article indicative that either gay couples are going to the Mass or that there are signs of homosexual behavior during the Mass. Example: Kissing someone you’re with during the sign of peace. You are making mass assumptions on this issue with nothing in the article that says it is a Mass in support of same sex relationships.

Quite frankly, identifying who you are by your sexual partners is hard to understand for most straight people. We don’t see you as anything special, needing special rights, special Masses, or anything else. You are just like the rest of us - struggling through life with our burdens trying to work out our salvation.

We don’t want to be thought of as anything special. Just equal. There are very few gay people who want to have to “need” special treatment. We just want everyone to treat us as they would treat any straight person. With love, honor, and respect.

 

[ConstantineTG]

We already have the mass. It is for all sin and all crosses that we bear.

I don’t see it as a bad thing if this is a once a year thing. We have Masses which focuses on specific special intentions, why not have a Mass for those who bear the cross of SSA?

 

[Elizabeth502]

a single man or woman who is SSA will always be faced with awkward questions and under suspicion of being “disordered” or more likely as some sort of abomination.

No, he won’t, and she won’t. It’s only the 21st century secular maladies which “require” him or her, and brainwash him or her, that he or she must parade and/or declare, their sexuality. Sexuality is immaterial at a Mass. Masses are neither gay nor straight. I don’t ask the stranger (neighbor) – brother or sister next to me to declare what his or her temptations are, nor should he or she be asking that of me. All temptations are private matters if one is discreet enough. And if you have an active sexual partner (which would make it “awkward” or “suspicious”), and you declare that, then you are in fact not living a Catholic lifestyle at all, and I don’t understand why you would want to pretend such a thing, or force Catholics to accept the practice of your homosexuality.

If you are sitting next to a Platonic friend of the same sex, and have SSA, it’s none of my business- ***and none of yours ***-- to be declaring to anyone that you have SSA. It has zero to do with the Mass. If a straight unmarried man is sitting next to a straight unmarried woman, it’s also not my business – ***or yours ***-- to know if they are fornicating. We assume, if people in both situations are presenting themselves for communion, that they are in accordance with church laws – until they declare themselves not to be.

But according to priests hearing confessions on a regular basis, the people presenting the greatest struggles in these confessionals are not gay men or women who are resisting SSA attractions while practicing Catholicism, but straight men addicted to straight porn.

I do understand struggle. You apparently do not, or think that only certain kinds of struggle are “special,” or “unique,” or deserve special Masses, whereas others are not. It’s your failure, not mine, to understand the universal, daily struggle against sin.

And you’ve just demonstrated it again.

You’ve just demonstrated how very little you know about Catholicism, its theology, and the compassion of its members. In fact you’ve demonstrated that repeatedly now.

 

[po18guy]

But a Mass, which unites the single mystical Body of Christ.

OK, maybe two voices can get this point across. We are unified in Christ - members of His body, not separate groups of sinners with differing disorders who ask for separate recognition. Recognition by our Lord is all that we need.

 

[po18guy]

I don’t see it as a bad thing if this is a once a year thing. We have Masses which focuses on specific special intentions, why not have a Mass for those who bear the cross of SSA?

Well, I think a special intention is a different thing entirely than is a mass, celebrated by itself, addressing a particular, and currently politically controversial disorder. I understand the intention behind it - a call to unity, but it causes scandal. When the priest abuse scandal is 80-90% homosexual in nature, celebrating masses directed at this particular disorder leads to confusion and scandal even among Church members. Despite its good intentions, it also tends to promote separation or division, rather than unity. Christ prayed that we, with our various disorders, all be one, as He and the Father are One. Consider also the extreme societal and political - soon possibly legal - pressure upon the Church to accept SS unions, and the appearance it gives of endorsing the behavior of those who suffer from it. I believe that prudential judgment, in this regard, has failed in some cases.

 

[mcrow]

I think Gays are welcome to the Church. I don’t have a problem with gays and lesbians attending mass, I think it’s a good thing.

However, they should not be able to take part in the Eucharist since the Priests are not supposed to allow it to public sinners. Since it’s a GLBT Mass pretty well everyone there would be a known sinner and should not be allowed the Eucharist.

At heart we are all sinners but the difference is that most of the GLBT folks are completely unwillling to try to stop sinning or repent of their sins.

It seems this church went as far as congratulating gay couples and wishing their relationships continued happily. I think that is where this Church jumped the shark.

While gays should be allowed at mass you should not be encouraging or making it sound acceptible that they are having homosexual relations. Nor is it a good idea to have a GLBT mass.

 

[po18guy]

or maybe anyone who doesn’t see the need for such a mass doesn’t understand the meaning or what it is like to be homosexual and catholic

Or a heroin addict and Catholic, or a spouse abuser and Catholic, or an embezzler and Catholic. Why is one particular disorder so in need of, so “incomplete”, so victimized unless it receives special masses? IMO, this disordered “need” points directly at the underlying disorder. SSA sufferers appear to identify themselves primarily by their disorder, and secondarily by their faith. I said “appear”. Why?

For the sake of unity in the Body of Christ, isn’t this something that should be recognized and dealt with, just as the physical behavior that may accompany it must also be?

 

[po18guy]

Adam1986:
Special masses contain the danger of sending a message of exclusivity, or of endorsement or privilege. Think of pedophile masses. Talk about a hurting bunch! Good idea?

Ministry for those suffering from SSA? Absolutely. “Theological apartheid” via separate masses? Not so much.

The mass. Let everyone, every manner of sinner under the sun, join together for the greater glory of God. Deny yourselves, take up your cross daily, then go, follow Christ (Luke 9:23). That is our command.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Well, I think a special intention is a different thing entirely than is a mass, … Despite its good intentions, [a separate Mass] also tends to promote separation or division, rather than unity. Christ prayed that we, with our various disorders, all be one, as He and the Father are One. Consider also the extreme societal and political - soon possibly legal - pressure upon the Church to accept SS unions, and the appearance it gives of endorsing the behavior of those who suffer from it. I believe that prudential judgment, in this regard, has failed in some cases.

Completely agree.
(With everything I boxed.)

 

[Elizabeth502]

Also, the idea that one “must” be public, if gay, is absurd. Mass is a liturgical event, not a social event. Yes, many people bring their families, but so do many people who have families not bring those families. Examples would be parents who tag-team babysitting so that both can attend Mass; couples where one of them has a schedule that prevents both attending Mass together; couples where one member is a practicing Catholic, the other a fallen-away Catholic or a follower of a different religious tradition; divorced people who have not remarried; a widow or widower whose children have grown. (Should we cast “suspicious eyes” on the latter, “assuming” that surely the single widow or widower is gay/lesbian just because he or she is alone?)

Oh, but wait, I forgot: There’s a section in the Mass where we all “partner-up” just to identify “who we really are.”

In my town it is more of an exception to the “rule” that a straight family will actually be showing up, together, for the same Mass. A divorced woman might show up with her youngish looking mother. I don’t assume they’re lesbians; nor do such 2 women act “ashamed” and “self-conscious” as if everybody is looking at them. This whole “must-come-out” trend is pure projection. No one is demanding that you “come-out” in Mass if you’re gay. It would be rather inappropriate, in fact.

 

[murphjos]

If there is real pastoral need in a given parish an intention could be added for thous who suffer with SSA. An announcement could be made at the end of mass regarding the when an where of the next Courage meeting. I don’t see how a separate mass does anything other to segregate a particular group based on their propensity for sin.