C
coachkfan1
Guest
This. Additionally, before we start speculating, how about we give the good Father the benefit of the doubt that he knows what was appropriate in this situation.
- Status
Z
zab
Guest
Don’t disregard the power of prayer. Sometimes that is all that one can do.
D
DeniseNY
Guest
Unrepentant sinners are not entitled to the sacraments. That goes for any of us. It’s the height of selfishness to “demand” that something be given to you on your terms. I lived a lot of years not understanding that sex outside of marriage was sinful I convinced myself that it was ok because the secular world tells us it’s ok. Well, it’s not. I had to make a decision regarding what was the Truth, and that Truth was what the Church teaches us. If I didn’t accept that, then I had no right to the Eucharist or any other sacrament.
L
LisaA
Guest
This points out the reality that no other sin gets the sort of positive support from the secular media. We never hear about MSNBC or HuffPo demanding that an unrepentant thief or murderer or adulteror or fornicating couple receive the sacraments. Imagine the headling “Public adulterer demands absolution!” or “Priest denies cohabiting couple the sacrament of Catholic marriage!”
I have to wonder how on earth a particular sexual practice has such favored status among pop culture, the media, education, and state/local/federal governments?
Lisa
E
Elizium23
Guest
Population Control demands it.
C
Corki
Guest
Well, that may have been the goal of praying together. From what my pastor says in his homilies, it is very rare to meet someone at his deathbed and find him completely unrepentant. Something about facing death usually results in at least partial remorse. Perhaps the priest was taken aback by this man’s complete lack of contrition at such a grave moment. Or perhaps the cursing cut his “industrial strength” efforts short. My guess is that it’s fairly standard procedure to make a quiet exit if it seems that the patient in cardiac care is getting even more agitated by one’s presence.
I
ishii
Guest
P
PaulinVA
Guest
We won’t know until and unless the priest gives his side of the story. You are right, a person who is afraid of dying is probably open to contrition. I see this as an opportunity squandered by the priest and the man.Well, that may have been the goal of praying together. From what my pastor says in his homilies, it is very rare to meet someone at his deathbed and find him completely unrepentant. Something about facing death usually results in at least partial remorse. Perhaps the priest was taken aback by this man’s complete lack of contrition at such a grave moment. Or perhaps the cursing cut his “industrial strength” efforts short. My guess is that it’s fairly standard procedure to make a quiet exit if it seems that the patient in cardiac care is getting even more agitated by one’s presence.
What I do find interesting is that people who identify as gay, and make the news, put the gay part of them before the Catholic part of them. They believe what the gay lobby says (you are entitled to everything) and not what the Church says (for you to live chastely you probably have to be celibate. You could marry someone of the opposite sex if you can find a woman attractive) .
L
LisaA
Guest
I suggest it’s more an opportunity squandered by the man than the priest. One can only offer the blessings of the Sacraments. It’s up to the person whether or not to accept them. Of course we were not there but I would suggest that the priest went to the man ready to listen to his confession and offer absolution. I do not believe that he went with the plan to withhold absolution do you?
As to your second paragraph, that is the key. Homosexuality is a disorder that impacts far more than what one does with their genitals, but that they focus on their sexual activity above all things, that they identify FIRST with their sexual practices, demonstrates how this challenge permeates their entire being. I would never describe myself as a straight female Catholic…it’s completely bass-ackwards isn’t it?
The saddest thing to me is the way this sexual activity has been elevated by our media, popular culture and politicians to godlike status. And we know what happens to those who worship false gods.
Lisa
P
PaulinVA
Guest
Lisa, yes the man had an opportunity that he squandered. The priest did not go into the situation defaulted to withholding absolution. BUT, I view our priests as more than sacrament dispensers. I think that they should do more than “take it or leave it”. I would hate to be a priest, because every day you are confronted with situations that affect people’s immortal souls, as we used to say. It’s incredibly hard. You obviously can’t convert people in an quick hostpital-room encoutner, but perhaps, through the Holy Spirit, you can make an impact.
I have been told, and I tend to agree, that gay people do not view their lives through sex, just like, as you said, you don’t view your life through sex. They view their lives through “who they are”. And they view “gay” as different on all levels than straight. It is truly a different team. It permeates everything. They might actually never have had gay sex with someone. They are simply “gay” as an identifier. That is why they have to tell everyone they are gay.
L
LisaA
Guest
Does “making an impact” mean violating his priestly vows? So you suggest he make an exception and not expect either repentence or a vow not to sin again before granting absolution? Really?
Your statement is completely contradictory. You state they don’t view their lives through sex but “it permeates everything” Huh?
If “who they are” is BASED on their sexual inclinations (whether or not acted upon) then they are elevating a specific form of lust to godlike status. Who they are is a child of God. Their sexual interests should be considered of little significance. What differentiates us from non-human animals? The ability to NOT act upon impulses and instincts. What do we call these urges? Our animal nature…not our human nature. That activist gays/Lesbians are focused on their “rights” to publiclly declare what they do in private, to demand everyone else capitulate to their disordered desires is part of the disorder itself.Can you not see this complete dichotomy?
FWIW I know a number of gays, quite inimately in fact. None of the gays I know are the slightest bit interested in the activist lifestyle or demanding affirmation regarding their sex lives. They do not identify themselves primarily as gay, they are just Darryl and Forrest and Jesse and Chris…Very sad that the militants have the bully pulpit and are destroying the fabric of our society with it. Most gays/Lesbians just want to live their lives free of harassment and I am more than happy to let them. It’s the militants I reject and fight.
Lisa
P
PaulinVA
Guest
Lisa, we have a problem understanding each other. I didn’t suggest violating his vows at all. Try to view my responses based on my many statements that I am an orthodox Catholic.
It is possible to spend five minutes with someone and talk about reconciling a sexual orientation, an irregular marriage, a habitual sin, or whatever with Church teaching and bringing a lost sheep into the fold. How hard is it to say, “Let’s look at where you are, and what the Church teaches”? Perhaps the priest can bring someone to repentance, to reconciliation with the Church. I don’t mean looking for loopholes.
Your statement is completely contradictory. You state they don’t view their lives through sex but “it permeates everything” Huh?
No, Lisa, there is no contradiction, no dichotomy. What I am saying, what I have observed, is that gay people view themselves as being different. Their gayness is not about sex, just like my life is not about sex. It’s about who they love, how they interact with people, who they are. They view male and gay male as different genders, if you will.
Okay, got a meeting to go to…
C
Corki
Guest
That is so true. In fact the media often points out the “hypocrisy” of letting death row inmates reconcile with God and get last rites, even though they are repentant. But an unrepentant practicing homosexual is supposed to have a different set of rules.
L
LisaA
Guest
I believe the priest tried to help the man understand the Church’s teaching and it was rejected. It sounds as if the man simply demanded the Sacrament while remaining fiercely determined NOT to express contrition.
Do you think otherwise? Do you think the priest went into his room, said “Do you repent of your sins and promise not to sin again?” “No?” “Well I guess we’re done here…”
I realize not all priests are saints or saints in the making but is there any reason to believe the priest did not go in with a heart for Christ and a hope that he could guide this man into loving Christ?
You seem to make the assumption that the priest “didn’t try hard enough” because the man did not succumb to his counsel. I don’t.
I think this is a very specious argument and you cannot see how self contradictory you are. We are ALL different. We are ALL unique. They way we interact, whom we desire sexually, what we love are all a result of our unique genetics, our upbringing, our education. To say that all gay males have a specific and consistent way of interacting or living is just erroneous.
And if gays and gay apologists consider gay males and straight males different genders, they are truly misguided. Our gender is determined by our DNA. No amount of hormone treatment, no amount of plastic surgery, no amount of psychiatric care will change our DNA.
I recently read an essay by a priest who said in reality homosexuals REJECT the gender they were assigned by God, the gender that was there from the moment of conception. I think he’s absolutely right. As a male one is ordered to live, act and express sexuality as a male. There is more than outward differences in plumbing. There are massive differences in men’s and women’s brains. Even the hardest Leftist or feminist cannot discount what can be measured scientifically (and what our grandmothers knew without resorting to an MRI…men and women are different)
That a man thinks he’s something he’s not would be called a mental illness if not for the pop culture and media that elevates a disordered mental state into some sort of source of pride. …figuratively and literally. Have you ever been around mentally ill people? They sincerely believe they are something or someone they are not. That they THINK doesn’t make it so.
Have you accepted pop culture definitions over our Church’s teaching? I just do not think Perez Hilton or Anderson Cooper or Rachel Maddow have the same credibility as thousands of years of tradition and philosophy.
Lisa
E
Elizium23
Guest
I think that for some people, a refusal of sacraments and a negative outcome with a visiting priest might just be the catalyst they need to consider that perhaps their sins truly are grave and they will need to pray more about repenting from them. For this man, the visit from a priest was the catalyst for him to hurl abuse and insults and then go to the media about how he was “wronged”. I think we have no obligation to assume good faith on the patient’s behalf but we have every reason to assume it in the case of the priest, especially in the climate of the ArchDC where nobody is ever supposed to be refused any sacrament for any reason.
Z
zab
Guest
I agree with you for the most part, but I don’t see how the last part can be true, that is, “…the climate of the ArchDC where nobody is ever supposed to be refused any sacrament for any reason.” If a person were to declare that they are a Satanist and then demand to receive Holy Communion do you think they would not be refused? The issue regarding not refusing Communion to those who present themselves is because no one knows the state of that persons soul or if she/he went to confession or not before receiving. And the Communion line is not the place to ask questions in most cases. Some bishops have had to consult with some public and political leaders who persistently go public against church teaching. In this case we have someone who makes it known before receiving the sacraments that he does not accept church teaching. Catholics who are not in good standing are not “entitled” to receive the sacraments. The sacraments are like privileges for Catholic in good standing only. Therefore, if he should die in his state of soul without having received the sacraments, he would be left to the judgment and mercy of God like non Catholics and without the graces aiding in his last hours.
L
LisaA
Guest
I think this is in reference to the priest who was accosted by a militant Lesbian at her mother’s funeral and then demanded communion at the funeral Mass. The priest was then admonished for not providing the Sacrament to what was clearly an un-repentant sinner.
You are right the priest doesn’t know the state of the person’s soul but when they are overtly making their sin an issue and badge of honor, it becomes problematic. I often wonder why the priest doesn’t just give a blessing and turn to the next person in line. Before I was Catholic, I would sometimes participate in the Communion line with arms crossed of course. It would be a charitable way of dealing with these folks although I suspect some of them won’t take no for an answer.
Lisa
Z
zab
Guest
Oh, I forgot about that incident. But like you said, sometimes things could have been done a little more graciously. I don’t know the details of how that went exactly.
L
LisaA
Guest
If you’re interested there is a very extensive thread on CAF. I think you can search it. Similar situation although I think the priest really tried to explain the situation while still understanding that one cannot engage in a long discussion of Church teaching prior to a funeral Mass.
I just read an article about a billionaire gay couple who are suing to be married in their local church. Not sure if it’s Catholic but as CofE has just stated it will not participate in same sex weddings, more likely they are the target. But don’t be fooled they will come after the Church as soon as they have the right set of circumstances and enough funding.
Those who elevate sex to godlike status will stop at nothing. They are listening to the voice of evil.
Lisa
P
PaulinVA
Guest
Yes, that’s true. We don’t have the priest’s side of the story, and, as I said, priests have a tough row to hoe when they are, in effect, ambushed by someone with a long-held problem with the Church.
Lisa, I am not telling you what *I *think, I am explaining what I believe that gay people think.
I agree with most of what you said. However, I think that we need to understand what the “other side” thinks, so that we can tailor our counter arguments to them. Just spouting our party line will not win any converts.
- Status