Gender Roles

[LittleDeb]

I agree that there are hard-wired roles.

My husband and I both like to cook. I feed people. I am a nuturer. He creates meals. He’s a chef. (by profession too.) He points out that all the master chefs are men. There are some incredible female, executive chefs but the commitment to be a master chef comes from a person who is hard-wired to provide and protect.

My parents both sew. Dad made camping equipment. Mom made costumes for the kids. I do both, but costumes are my favorite. (BTW I think count cross-stitch is more hard-wired to the detail skills of men.)

I think this isn’t about the “what” of the jobs, but the “how and why.” Yep, my mom slept through crying babies and dad woke up. Mom also sleeps through smoke alarms.

My mom recently found out that it was the definition of gender roles as given by the feminist movement that she despised. She thought she had failed as a woman. She likes the roles of men and women as defined by The Church. She has helped me to know now as an adult that being fully feminine is a gift from God not some subjugated role.

My experience was so much like Asella’s I thought she was writing my life story! (PM me, please. I thought I was infertile too, maybe you’re not!)

Yep, I think God hard wired women to nurture and men to provide and protect. BTW a couple who are our best friends have a SAHD. The wife is still better at it and craves being able to do it. They are not religious and very “progressive.”

 

[Chris_G]

LittleDeb:

I agree that there are hard-wired roles.

My husband and I both like to cook. I feed people. I am a nuturer. He creates meals. He’s a chef. (by profession too.) He points out that all the master chefs are men. There are some incredible female, executive chefs but the commitment to be a master chef comes from a person who is hard-wired to provide and protect.

My parents both sew. Dad made camping equipment. Mom made costumes for the kids. I do both, but costumes are my favorite. (BTW I think count cross-stitch is more hard-wired to the detail skills of men.)

I think this isn’t about the “what” of the jobs, but the “how and why.” Yep, my mom slept through crying babies and dad woke up. Mom also sleeps through smoke alarms.

My mom recently found out that it was the definition of gender roles as given by the feminist movement that she despised. She thought she had failed as a woman. She likes the roles of men and women as defined by The Church. She has helped me to know now as an adult that being fully feminine is a gift from God not some subjugated role.

My experience was so much like Asella’s I thought she was writing my life story! (PM me, please. I thought I was infertile too, maybe you’re not!)

Yep, I think God hard wired women to nurture and men to provide and protect. BTW a couple who are our best friends have a SAHD. The wife is still better at it and craves being able to do it. They are not religious and very “progressive.”

Amen to that! Of course men can cook, clean, sew, etc. We are not talking about Hollywoods versions of male and female, we are talking about Gods. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. The sooner we accept that, the better.

And personally, for someone that mentioned it, what is wrong with the Ward and June Cleaver stereotype? Seems more in line with Gods plan than a “Married With Children” or “Will and Grace” (or insert just about any other Hollywood version of family) approach.

 

[Catholic90]

Chris G:

There is a reason Dads don’t feel comfortable talking about “girl” issues with their daughters and Moms arent’ comfortable talking about “boy” issues with their sons.

.

I am a mom to 3 boys. I am extremely comfortable talking to my now teen and preteen sons about “boy” and “male” issues. There isn’t much we haven’t discussed! We’ve discussed maturing, dating, sex, how the male parts work, how they may be feeling in certain situations, situations specific to them, and all in very great detail, I might add. Most of these talks occur in the car. My husband, on the other hand, is very uncomfortable having these types of discussions with his sons. My sons will seek me out to get my opinion, to ask advice, to vent, to question, etc. They obviously also feel very comfortable talking to me about these issues.

BTW, I did stay home with them until the youngest was in school. Then I went back to work in a school, so I do have the same hours, basically, as they do. My husband would also have loved to stay at home and take care of the kids. Unfortunately, he had to support us, so he was required to leave the house every morning. He would have loved to have been there for all the “firsts” too.

So the generalizations are not true.

 

[Chris_G]

Catholic90:

I am a mom to 3 boys. I am extremely comfortable talking to my now teen and preteen sons about “boy” and “male” issues. There isn’t much we haven’t discussed! We’ve discussed maturing, dating, sex, how the male parts work, how they may be feeling in certain situations, situations specific to them, and all in very great detail, I might add. Most of these talks occur in the car. My husband, on the other hand, is very uncomfortable having these types of discussions with his sons. My sons will seek me out to get my opinion, to ask advice, to vent, to question, etc. They obviously also feel very comfortable talking to me about these issues.

BTW, I did stay home with them until the youngest was in school. Then I went back to work in a school, so I do have the same hours, basically, as they do. My husband would also have loved to stay at home and take care of the kids. Unfortunately, he had to support us, so he was required to leave the house every morning. He would have loved to have been there for all the “firsts” too.

So the generalizations are not true.

I would “love” to stay home with the children as well. But that’s not in the cards I was dealt. God made me male.

It is unfortunate that your husband can’t talk to your sons about some of the things you mentioned. They really need a male perspective on many things in order for them to develop their own male identity.

Again, I repeat, I have had the same type of dicussions with my daughters as well. But Mom really does it better. She has first hand experience with some of these “things” that I can only imagine what they are like. Same holds true for males. Women can only come so close to understanding what the male sex drive is like. Men can only come so close to understanding what the female wants in terms of romance. Men know males better than women. Women know females better than men.

I would encourage you to pick up a copy of Steve Rays “Men, Marriage, Sex, and Heaven”:
catholic-convert.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=45
He explains the gender differences much better than anyone else I have ever heard.

WE ARE DIFFERENT! Embrace this God given gift of difference, don’t reject it.

 

[buffalo]

Karin:

I am a bit confused here…are you saying that “men” should work and support a family no matter what? What happens if the wife has better skills or a better job (better $$ benefits etc.) that would support the family better? Should the husband not stay home then?

A man has a natural desire to be a provider and protector of his family. This is what gives him respect and keeps him motivated. He will work as many jobs as it takes. He will be dedicated to his family.

If his family appreciates this and works within the budget they wil prosper.

 

[Karin]

buffalo:

A man has a natural desire to be a provider and protector of his family…

not arguing that point

buffalo:

This is what gives him respect and keeps him motivated. He will work as many jobs as it takes. He will be dedicated to his family. .

Really??? So he will sacrifice spending time with his family so he can work numerous jobs to support them? Respect from whom? If my DH decided to stay home and I could go to work I would jump at the chance …the point being I would respect him no matter if he wanted to work or stay home:thumbsup: .

buffalo:

If his family appreciates this and works within the budget they wil prosper.

**I would not respect a husband that had to spend so much time away from home that he was only home to shower and sleep and then off to another job (so he could support us) …that is not being a good husband or father IMHO. If the woman can support the family better and not have to work numerous jobs why cant she…as long as she and her husband agreed of course. **

 

[buffalo]

not arguing that point

Really??? So he will sacrifice spending time with his family so he can work numerous jobs to support them? Respect from whom? If my DH decided to stay home and I could go to work I would jump at the chance …the point being I would respect him no matter if he wanted to work or stay home:thumbsup: .

**I would not respect a husband that had to spend so much time away from home that he was only home to shower and sleep and then off to another job (so he could support us) …that is not being a good husband or father IMHO. If the woman can support the family better and not have to work numerous jobs why cant she…as long as she and her husband agreed of course. **

I am a man. Naturally I would not want to spend that much time away from the family, but I would if necessary. If you would not respect me for that, then so be it. However, my own self-respect is key and my understanding of my role as provider.

In the Love and Respect book you can find out what makes a man tick. It can offer a perspective on why marriages fail. When I first read this book I immediately connected with the man and how he feels.

In surveys men had responded overwhelmingly that he would rather live alone than be disrespected in his own home. That’s how important it is. Women on the other hand respond to love. Hence the title Love and Respect.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

I must say I’m amazed at how much this discussion is based almost solely on preconcieved sterotypes and assumptions.

Men are natural “providers and protect”.
Women are naturals at “nurturing”.

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1. It ignores the fact that men are just as nurturing as a woman - although they may express it in a different manner. It ignores that women also have a desire to see their children provided and protected. Although they may go about meeting that need in a different manner than a man.

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2. What gender you are has nothing to do with who should do what in the house or out of it, although it MAY affect the manner in which you do it.

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We do not know if Joseph and Mary followed these sterotypes. We do know that they did their best to always listen and obey God. The rest is assumption and theory. And there were Godly women in the bible who many would think over-stepped into supposed male gender roles. (Leaders, workers, and so on…)

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As for the Ward & June Cleaver reference I made. What do I think is wrong with it? It was stupid. There’s not a doubt in my mind that June Cleaver needed a dose of prozac and Ward was completely ignorant to it. That doesn’t mean I think Married with Children is good either.

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I respect men who are striving to be good husbands and fathers. Which is a lot more than being a male who brings home a paycheck.

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I respect women who are striving to be good wives and mothers. Which is a lot more than being a female who does the dishes and feeds the baby.

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I do not define who I am by someone else’s idea of what a woman’s place is. My place is the wife and mother doing what is best for her family. Whatever that may need to be.

 

[Karin]

buffalo:

I am a man. Naturally I would not want to spend that much time away from the family, but I would if necessary. If you would not respect me for that, then so be it. However, my own self-respect is key and my understanding of my role as provider. .

Right…your self respect…who are you to say what may effect my husbands self respect??

buffalo:

In the Love and Respect book you can find out what makes a man tick. It can offer a perspective on why marriages fail. When I first read this book I immediately connected with the man and how he feels. .

Right…my first marraige I was the “Susie Homemaker”…three meals a day , did laundry, shopped, cleaned etc. but my ex thought hitting me was par for the course…needless to say men dont need to hit woman and we said Bye to his sorry butt…oh by the way did I mention he was a Devout Catholic :nope: So why did this marraige fail because I played my gender role or becuase I was a punching bag …!!! So here we are on my second marriage to a wonderful man…yes he works and supports us…he does not need to and has stated since I could make more money and support the family better he would actually not mind staying home…tossing the idea around still

buffalo:

In surveys men had responded overwhelmingly that he would rather live alone than be disrespected in his own home. That’s how important it is. Women on the other hand respond to love. Hence the title Love and Respect.

And I would rather be single than basically run a household without the father of my kids present to help out because he had to work numerous jobs to support us and was never home…I dont think any self repsecting man wants this!!!

 

[Forest-Pine]

buffalo:

In the Love and Respect book you can find out what makes a man tick. It can offer a perspective on why marriages fail. When I first read this book I immediately connected with the man and how he feels.

I much prefer His Needs, Her Needs. Still the same stereotype (you into five basic categories), but allows for the individuals involved. BTW, I had two strong “male” needs while my husband had two strong “female” needs. We both strongly connected with the book and it is a guiding principle in our marriage. What it boils down to is that we must work in the marriage for both people to be happy in everything we do. If your wife does not have a strong need to have a male provider then your efforts will thwart your marriage. Obviously, you will make someone very happy who does have this need. That does not mean we all do.

We also read Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, which someone mentioned earlier. We thought it was just terrible. It sounds like he ripped off the basic principle of His Needs, Her Needs then needed to come up with something unique to be able to sell it under his own name. So the scenarios make people connect with the book, but the conclusions are preposterous. “Let the man stay in his cave and watch the TV as long as he needs. His needs come before your own. That’s what your girlfriends are for.” Whaaaaa?! No. Your needs are equal to his. You both need to work out a way to both be happy. And your girlfriends cannot help you do that. As a matter of fact, your girlfriends should not be taking the place of your husband in providing basic emotional support. Grrr… OK, will stop down off the soap box now. LOL!

 

[Karin]

I must say I’m amazed at how much this discussion is based almost solely on preconcieved sterotypes and assumptions.

Men are natural “providers and protect”.
Women are naturals at “nurturing”.

1. It ignores the fact that men are just as nurturing as a woman - although they may express it in a different manner. It ignores that women also have a desire to see their children provided and protected. Although they may go about meeting that need in a different manner than a man.

2. What gender you are has nothing to do with who should do what in the house or out of it, although it MAY affect the manner in which you do it.

We do not know if Joseph and Mary followed these sterotypes. We do know that they did their best to always listen and obey God. The rest is assumption and theory. And there were Godly women in the bible who many would think over-stepped into supposed male gender roles. (Leaders, workers, and so on…)

As for the Ward & June Cleaver reference I made. What do I think is wrong with it? It was stupid. There’s not a doubt in my mind that June Cleaver needed a dose of prozac and Ward was completely ignorant to it. That doesn’t mean I think Married with Children is good either.

I respect men who are striving to be good husbands and fathers. Which is a lot more than being a male who brings home a paycheck.

I respect women who are striving to be good wives and mothers. Which is a lot more than being a female who does the dishes and feeds the baby.

I do not define who I am by someone else’s idea of what a woman’s place is. My place is the wife and mother doing what is best for her family. Whatever that may need to be.

Thank you very well put :clapping:

 

[buffalo]

I must say I’m amazed at how much this discussion is based almost solely on preconcieved sterotypes and assumptions.

Men are natural “providers and protect”.
Women are naturals at “nurturing”.

Preconceived? What does the history of family say about it for thousands of years? What does St Paul say about it?

I venture to say that this family model is an experiment. The statistics do not support it as a successful model, at least not yet. I wonder if God knows more about man and women than we give Him credit for.

“WIVES, BE SUBJECT TO YOUR HUSBANDS”:
THE AUTHORITY OF THE HUSBAND ACCORDING TO THE MAGISTERIUM

INTRODUCTION

The words, “Wives, be subject to your husbands,” jar many modern ears. Even though this exhortation comes from an inspired text in Sacred Scripture (Ephesians 5:22), many people–including practicing Catholics–are troubled by what appears to be a relic of Marriage customs “rightly” abandoned by contemporary culture. Those who resist any notion of hierarchy or patriarchy in the social order vigorously reject St. Paul’s concept of Marriage as an attack on the dignity of women.

Those who resist any notion of hierarchy or patriarchy in the social order vigorously reject St. Paul’s concept of Marriage as an attack on the dignity of women. Even those Christians not hostile to Paul’s teaching may believe that given the state of modern society, there is little to be gained by investigating–let alone applying–Paul’s prescriptions concerning the relationship of the spouses. However, one Catholic scholar, Stephen Clark, suggests that the controversy or unease over the family order described in Ephesians 5:21-33 is a relatively recent phenomenon. Regarding the question of a “head of the family” he writes, “Few areas in early Christian teaching are as uniform and fewer still were held with the same consistency as long as this one, since the first Christian voices advocating a different approach were raised only in about the nineteenth century.” Clark continues, “There are few instances where it is clearer that a change in the approach of Christians is an abandonment of Christian tradition, and not only of tradition, but of every source of authoritative teaching that can lay claim on a Christian.”

more…

 

[kage_ar]

I
I do not define who I am by someone else’s idea of what a woman’s place is. My place is the wife and mother doing what is best for her family. Whatever that may need to be.

Standing AMEN from this corner, in fact, it sounds like a Pentecostal Tent meeting at my desk

 

[buffalo]

****

I do not define who I am by someone else’s idea of what a woman’s place is. My place is the wife and mother doing what is best for her family. Whatever that may need to be.

Who defines what is best for all of mankind? Who has created the family? Who decides what is best for one’s family? Who decides what is best for the children?

Are we capable of making these decisions without guidance?

 

[LSK]

Princess_Abby:

I wish your grandmother had written a memoir. I would love to read more about such a fascinating life–ordinary but extraordinary.

Thank you, Princess Abby!

Grandma Crocco couldn’t read or write - HOWEVER! When I was in high school (approximately 4 thousand years ago - or so it seems) I taped her telling me about her life…some day when I am retired I plan to write a book about her.

Part of what my point is, I think, is that we often have romanticized ideas of what gender roles were in ‘the good old days’. Life for those who are poor is hard and women have often done much more than simply stay at home and raised their children. For those who worked the land, the women worked side by side with the men in the fields. My Grandmother knocked almonds and walnuts, my aunts and mother boxed apricots and picked cherries, etc. There are others here on the forums who have similar stories. My grandmother cooked for working ranch hands, on a wood stove, three meals a day. She knew that life can hand you a real pile of lemons and that a woman in the world better be prepared to put food on the table for her little ones…so what she wanted her daughters to be able to do was to be able to provide for their children without having to scrub floors, pick cotton, or wash other peoples’ clothes…not that those are not honorable professions. But my Grandma was a Genovese - she knew that those professions do not pay much and are very hard work. Therefore, long before it was fashionable and when usually only the daughters of the upper middle class or the wealthy went on past high school, her daughters got the education necessary to get them good jobs, nay careers, so that if anything ever happenned and they had to be the sole support for their children they could do it without having to work themselves into the grave.

Now, technically, I suppose, you could say she saw her gender role in all its glory - nuturer, mother, provider and protector of the family. Yet she stayed married, was an obedient daughter of the Holy Mother Church, believed strongly in devotion to Mary and taught all of us to Love the Trinity.

 

[Island_Oak]

I must say I’m amazed at how much this discussion is based almost solely on preconcieved sterotypes and assumptions.

Men are natural “providers and protect”.
Women are naturals at “nurturing”.

1. It ignores the fact that men are just as nurturing as a woman - although they may express it in a different manner. It ignores that women also have a desire to see their children provided and protected. Although they may go about meeting that need in a different manner than a man.

2. What gender you are has nothing to do with who should do what in the house or out of it, although it MAY affect the manner in which you do it.

We do not know if Joseph and Mary followed these sterotypes. We do know that they did their best to always listen and obey God. The rest is assumption and theory. And there were Godly women in the bible who many would think over-stepped into supposed male gender roles. (Leaders, workers, and so on…)

As for the Ward & June Cleaver reference I made. What do I think is wrong with it? It was stupid. There’s not a doubt in my mind that June Cleaver needed a dose of prozac and Ward was completely ignorant to it. That doesn’t mean I think Married with Children is good either.

I respect men who are striving to be good husbands and fathers. Which is a lot more than being a male who brings home a paycheck.

I respect women who are striving to be good wives and mothers. Which is a lot more than being a female who does the dishes and feeds the baby.

I do not define who I am by someone else’s idea of what a woman’s place is. My place is the wife and mother doing what is best for her family. Whatever that may need to be.

:bowdown: :clapping:

 

[jman507]

Women should be subject to their husbands. I fully agree, but you have to keep in mind that you have to love like Christ. Which means, your going to have to be the first to make a sacrifice and empty yourself completely. The master is the servant and the servant is the master. Your going to have to be the one to wash others feet. You might just need to give up that football game if others need you to pull in some help.

 

[Forest-Pine]

LSK:

Part of what my point is, I think, is that we often have romanticized ideas of what gender roles were in ‘the good old days’.

Thanks for sharing the story of Grandma! I think you are correct when you state that gender roles are now romanticized. People don’t like the way things are often seen now (understandably) so they go back in time to a place where they think things were different. I particularly like to go back to colonial America. The women often had a cook, a maid, a nanny, and a kid or two who just helped out wherever needed. That left the women free to socialize, sew, read the Bible, attend the parties, etc. The truth of the matter is that this was the lifestyle of the upper echelons of society then, just as it is now. The real woman was the house servant whose kids were toted along behind her and working by the time they were 6. She didn’t have time for the frivolities. She didn’t have help with her house or kids. She had a full time job, plus a family and a house to take care of.

We can even look at tribal societies and see that women are not able to be “at home” and “nurturing” their kids. The kids are usually packed onto a back or chest like a package until they are old enough to be on their own. Then they are pretty much left to their own devices to go find some friends to play with while mom works her tail off making a fire and collecting wood and preparing meat and making weapons or going hunting or gathering or transporting the fire (as they don’t know how to make it, so they have to transport it from one place to another). “Nurturing” is not a luxury they have.

Further, it appears that men were initially made with the ability to breastfeed. Mammory glands and nipples and other evolutionary evidence points to this. (It is not well publicized, but some men continue to do so.) So God made men able to “nurture” but men chose not to, for various reasons I’m sure. However, comparing our society to one in which basic survival is a concern or one with strict societal roles is not proof that God intended us to live one way or another. The fact of the matter is that some men have a strong need to be the bread winner for their families. Some women have a strong need to have a male provider. These two would work well together in a marriage. All marriages require give and take, complementing styles, etc. That does not mean there is something immoral or inherently wrong (not of God) if a different marriage has a different balance. The qualifier is if they are leading each other and their family to God. Teaching a girl to stay at home obviously is only a modern luxury and not a qualifier.

 

[LSK]

Forest-Pine:

Thanks for sharing the story of Grandma! I think you are correct when you state that gender roles are now romanticized.

Thank you, my friend…she is one of my role models and my heroine!

However, comparing our society to one in which basic survival is a concern or one with strict societal roles is not proof that God intended us to live one way or another. The fact of the matter is that some men have a strong need to be the bread winner for their families. Some women have a strong need to have a male provider. These two would work well together in a marriage. All marriages require give and take, complementing styles, etc. That does not mean there is something immoral or inherently wrong (not of God) if a different marriage has a different balance. The qualifier is if they are leading each other and their family to God. Teaching a girl to stay at home obviously is only a modern luxury and not a qualifier

I think you are correct - we need to not make our female or male children afraid to be good family people, to put love of the Trinity incenter of their lives and I really believe that guides them they will find their true callings. If we concern ourselves too much with what might or might not be ‘the right gender roles’ we may miss this being the all important lesson.

Now, having said that, I do think we need strong male role models in the home…and I can think of no stronger male role model than St. Joseph!

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

buffalo:

The words, “Wives, be subject to your husbands,” jar many modern ears. Even though this exhortation comes from an inspired text in Sacred Scripture (Ephesians 5:22), many people–including practicing Catholics–are troubled by what appears to be a relic of Marriage customs “rightly” abandoned by contemporary culture. Those who resist any notion of hierarchy or patriarchy in the social order vigorously reject St. Paul’s concept of Marriage as an attack on the dignity of women.

Interesting how no one ever keeps reading. St. Paul goes on to say "Husbands submit likewise to your wife."

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I don’t think St. Paul in any way is attacking women because I’ve read more than that 1 passage. Actually, it appears he would agree with me.

Who defines what is best for all of mankind? Who has created the family?
**Why God, of course. I don’t think anyone here would disagree with that? **

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Who decides what is best for one’s family? Who decides what is best for the children?
The mother and father that God gave them.

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Are we capable of making these decisions without guidance?
Who says we (as in me) are making these decisions without His guidance? You? Why? Because we don’t agree with you?