Gender Roles

[LSK]

You make an excellent point about Holy Scripture. One of the ‘tools’ that our seperated brethren often use against Catholic Christians is words from Holy Scripture, pulled out of context as though to prove that the True Faith and the Holy Mother Church are false. I have seen that done with all kinds of arguments. I hate to see that done here.

Again, I think we have missed the point. Women do have roles - wonderful roles - that truly only they can do. If they chose to do those under the guidance of the Holy Spirit then that is wonderful…but if they chose to serve God in a different way then that is also wonderfu. Men also have roles, but what is important is that the Holy Trinity, the Eucharist and the teachings of the Faith be central to our lives…not personal gain, not having stuff, not wanting to lord it over our neighbors.

I know that since trying - not achieving, certainly, because I am hardly a saint! - to put Him first all the rest of my life has seemed to fall exactly into place. I can hardly believe I am unique, and it would seem to me that if worshiping the Lord could do this for me it can do this for a Catholic Christian married couple.

 

[buffalo]

Forest-Pine:

Further, it appears that men were initially made with the ability to breastfeed. Mammory glands and nipples and other evolutionary evidence points to this. (It is not well publicized, but some men continue to do so.) So God made men able to “nurture” but men chose not to, for various reasons I’m sure. However, comparing our society to one in which basic survival is a concern or one with strict societal roles is not proof that God intended us to live one way or another. The fact of the matter is that some men have a strong need to be the bread winner for their families. Some women have a strong need to have a male provider. These two would work well together in a marriage. All marriages require give and take, complementing styles, etc. That does not mean there is something immoral or inherently wrong (not of God) if a different marriage has a different balance. The qualifier is if they are leading each other and their family to God. Teaching a girl to stay at home obviously is only a modern luxury and not a qualifier.

Male nipples prove evolution?

 

[Chris_G]

**As for the Ward & June Cleaver reference I made. What do I think is wrong with it? It was stupid. There’s not a doubt in my mind that June Cleaver needed a dose of prozac and Ward was completely ignorant to it. **

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You do understand of course that “it was stupid” and the “prozac” comment do nothing to further your argument, right?
**

I respect men who are striving to be good husbands and fathers. Which is a lot more than being a male who brings home a paycheck.

**
Except for the fact that bringing home a paycheck is an important part of being a good husband and a good father. Without it, my wife and children don’t eat.

 

[Chris_G]

Karin:

Right…my first marraige I was the “Susie Homemaker”…three meals a day , did laundry, shopped, cleaned etc. but my ex thought hitting me was par for the course…needless to say men dont need to hit woman and we said Bye to his sorry butt…oh by the way did I mention he was a Devout Catholic :nope: So why did this marraige fail because I played my gender role or becuase I was a punching bag …!!! So here we are on my second marriage to a wonderful man…

Thank you for that. I think I am starting to get a better picture of what the real problem is here…

PS: “Devout” Catholics are sinners. Were you expecting more than that?

 

[Chris_G]

Rob's Wife:

I do not define who I am by someone else’s idea of what a woman’s place is. My place is the wife and mother doing what is best for her family. Whatever that may need to be.

Is someone suggesting that you do otherwise? I haven’t seen it here.

PS: You’ve made your position quite clear. Now, do you understand / care what Gods position is on the subject?

 

[Chris_G]

From Mother Theresa:

I do not understand why some people are saying that women and men are exactly the same, and are denying the beautiful differences between men and women. All God’s gifts are good, but they are not all the same. As I often say to people who tell me they would like to serve the poor as I do, “What I can do, you cannot.
What you can do, I cannot. But together we can do something beautiful for God.” It is just this way with the differences between women and men.

**Mother Teresa’s Letter to the Fourth Conference on Women **

 

[Karin]

Chris G:

Thank you for that. I think I am starting to get a better picture of what the real problem is here…

PS: “Devout” Catholics are sinners. Were you expecting more than that?

That is right and they are law breaker also…or at least the ex was…domestic violence is a crime

 

[Karin]

Chris G:

Except for the fact that bringing home a paycheck is an** important part** of being a good husband and a good father. Without it, my wife and children don’t eat.

That is the point …bringing home a paycheck is only a part of the whole.

 

[Chris_G]

And it never ceases to amaze me when people quote what they think the Bible states instead of what it really does:

Colossians Chapter 3: (NAB)18 Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives, and avoid any bitterness toward them. or the DRB version:

18 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as it behoveth in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives and be not bitter towards them.

or 1 Peter 3 (NAB):
1 Likewise, you wives should be subordinate to your husbands so that, even if some disobey the word, they may be won over without a word by their wives’ conduct 2 when they observe your reverent and chaste behavior. 7Likewise, you husbands should live with your wives in understanding, showing honor to the weaker female sex, since we are joint heirs of the gift of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered

 

[Chris_G]

That is the point …bringing home a paycheck is only a part of the whole.

Again, I haven’t seen anyone post anything suggesting otherwise. But you will have to admit, without that paycheck, a substantial part of the whole is missing (ie: food and shelter= pretty important)

 

[Chris_G]

Karin:

That is right and they are law breaker also…or at least the ex was…domestic violence is a crime

And something to pray about (ie: forgive), not gloat.

 

[Karin]

Chris G:

Again, I haven’t seen anyone post anything suggesting otherwise. But you will have to admit, without that paycheck, a substantial part of the whole is missing (ie: food and shelter= pretty important)

**true but you miss the point…I do not need my husband to provide that paycheck…I can also provide it if I so choose **
There is also more to the whole picture than a house and food (that are provided by a paycheck) what about emotional support ??

 

[Chris_G]

And let’s quote the entire Ephesians (from Chapter 5) verses while we are at it22 Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. 24 As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her 26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, 27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body.

 

[Chris_G]

**true but you miss the point…I do not need my husband to provide that paycheck…I can also provide it if I so choose **
There is also more to the whole picture than a house and food (that are provided by a paycheck) what about emotional support ??

No, I’m not missing your point. I know you don’t need your husband to provide that paycheck. You can provide it. But if you do, you will be away from you children more often than if you didn’t provide that paycheck. And of course, it’s your choice. Question is, is it the best choice?

Emotional support is needed yes. But without a house and food, emotional support doesn’t feed, clothe and house.

 

[LSK]

I should also point out that devout Catholic men do NOT hit their wives…this is more than simply being a sinner …this is being an ACTIVE sinner who I gather from the tone of Karin’s post and the obvious resentment she (rightly) carries towards this man covered up his behavior by outwardly pretending to practice his faith. He may have even received graces by his practices - I don’t know because I am hardly a theologian - but I would not call anyone who engages in this type of behavior a devout Catholic. If a mother who goes to daily Mass then goes home and beats her children tried to tell me she was fullfilling her role as a good Catholic mother by staying at home and being with her children and raising them and being a devout Catholic I would challenge that with my whole heart, my whole soul and a call to CPS…

but then again, I am a buttinsky in these types of matters…

 

[Chris_G]

The Pope reportedly went to confession at least once a week.
I guess we would need to define “devout Catholic” before we could go further. And resentment is never healthy. Forgiveness is. But it still is true that you can be Catholic (albeit, not a very good one) and still sin by abusing another.
It just confuses things when statements like “he’s not a devout Catholic because he / she does X” are made, where X refers to a sin of one sort or another.
Who is more Catholic? Someone that beats their spouse by praises God and admits their sinfulness every Sunday and begs God for forgiveness or the Ward Cleaver that by all ourward appearances is the good husband / father but doesn’t think he is doing anything wrong by having a few women on the side?
Don’t forget about the two praying at the temple. The one up near the front that prays “thank you God that I am not like that poor sinner back there” while the sinner in the back prays “have mercy on me God!”

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Chris GExcept for the fact that bringing home a paycheck is an important part of being a good husband and a good father.:

No. It’s not. It’s a neccessity of life. Who does brings home the check doesn’t make it anything more than that.

Without it, my wife and children don’t eat.
**I suppose that could happen. That or she could earn the check. Just like if she doesn’t cook the meal - you do have the option of cooking it yourself rather than starving. These are neccessities of life. Who make the money or cooks the meal doesn’t make the mortgage anyless paid or the food any less filling. And it doesn’t make the man or woman any more or less a man or woman. **

 

[SMHW]

Chris G:

I guess we would need to define “devout Catholic” before we could go further.

My dictionary defines “devote” as being ‘devoted to’ something.

On that basis, ‘devout’ does not have any connotations of ‘good’ or ‘evil’. But in common usage we understand ‘devout’ to mean someone who tries and usually succeeds at being ‘good’.

But in any case, whether or not Karin’s first husband is properly called a ‘devout Catholic’, I think everyone agrees that he should not be held up as an example of how a husband is to behave, whether he is traditional or otherwise.

In fact, abusive behavior should be considered aberrant behavior when discussing roles in marriage.

 

[LSK]

Chris G:

The Pope reportedly went to confession at least once a week.
I guess we would need to define “devout Catholic” before we could go further. And resentment is never healthy. Forgiveness is. But it still is true that you can be Catholic (albeit, not a very good one) and still sin by abusing another.
It just confuses things when statements like “he’s not a devout Catholic because he / she does X” are made, where X refers to a sin of one sort or another.
Who is more Catholic? Someone that beats their spouse by praises God and admits their sinfulness every Sunday and begs God for forgiveness or the Ward Cleaver that by all ourward appearances is the good husband / father but doesn’t think he is doing anything wrong by having a few women on the side?
Don’t forget about the two praying at the temple. The one up near the front that prays “thank you God that I am not like that poor sinner back there” while the sinner in the back prays “have mercy on me God!”

I absolutely understand what you are saying, Chris, and you are correct. But I know that people use the title "devout’ to ok a multitude of behaviors - to ‘ok’ them if you will - and while forgiveness is always what to aim for I absolutely understand why Karin is still very resentful of a man who promised to love and honor her and beat her up instead.

Yes, the Pope has a confessor…it is why we as Catholics understand the difference between impeccable and infallible (please excuse my lousy spelling). And I am sure this ‘devout’ Catholic man received graces for the acts of devotions he performed - as I stated in my post I am not a theologian and so will not engage in that type of debate. However, he certainly did NOT fullfill his gender role, he deeply disappointed his wife, he broke his marriage vows the MOMENT he laid his hands upon her in anger and that marriage was (in my humble and unlearned yet obvious heated opinion) null because that man was unFIT for marriage if he thought he should ever EVER put his hand on his wife in anger. That was not a marriage at ALL and I would be shocked and surprised if any compentent canon lawyer or tribunal would uphold as valid a marriage in which either partner repeatedly assaulted their spouse.

However, that is not what this thread is about and I think Karin threw in a smoke screen to make her point.

My point, if you will look at my previous posts, is that we have a tendency to romanticize gender roles. Let’s put Christ and the Holy Trinity back into the center of our lives as individuals first. If you do this you will make a good marriage. If the marriage is good, the husband and wife will make good solid choices as to what is right for them in terms of how to earn a living and how to raise their children because all of that will be centered on the Lord, under the guidance of the teachings of the Holy Mother Church and under the protection of the Mantle of Our Blessed Mother.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Chris G:

From Mother Theresa:

I do not understand why some people are saying that women and men are exactly the same, and are denying the beautiful differences between men and women. All God’s gifts are good, but they are not all the same. As I often say to people who tell me they would like to serve the poor as I do, “What I can do, you cannot.
What you can do, I cannot. But together we can do something beautiful for God.” It is just this way with the differences between women and men.

**Mother Teresa’s Letter to the Fourth Conference on Women **

I have never said men and women are the same. What I have said is that their differences have nothing to do with who should do what for the family. A man is perfectly capable of taking care of a child and home. But he will NOT be a “Mr. Mom” - he will a husband/dad caring for his child and home at home. Same goes for a woman working outside the house. This does not make her like a man - it makes her a wife/mother with a paying job.

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Just because a woman earns a check or a man does not - does not mean they are not living according to God’s will as a husband/father or wife/mother.

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This is how many a Godly couple live out Mother Teresa’s “What I can do, you cannot.
What you can do, I cannot. But together we can do something beautiful for God.”

She isn’t saying that we should ignore are differences - she saying we should work together to do for God. I fail to see how a mother working or a dad caring for the children fails to do that.