Gender Roles

[Truthseeker4]

I am in submission to my dh because he wants me to work outside the home.

What does the Catechism state on woman working? What about Proverbs 31?

Melissa

 

[Chris_G]

SMHW:

My dictionary defines “devote” as being ‘devoted to’ something.

On that basis, ‘devout’ does not have any connotations of ‘good’ or ‘evil’. But in common usage we understand ‘devout’ to mean someone who tries and usually succeeds at being ‘good’.

But in any case, whether or not Karin’s first husband is properly called a ‘devout Catholic’, I think everyone agrees that he should not be held up as an example of how a husband is to behave, whether he is traditional or otherwise.

In fact, abusive behavior should be considered aberrant behavior when discussing roles in marriage.

Exactly. That’s why I objected to the use of “devout Catholic” in the first place. Any husband that beats his wife is a sinner. Doesn’t really matter if he was a “devout” Catholic or not, but she felt the need to add it, as if that had something to do with the abuse. It was a backhanded insult.

And being “devout” has nothing to do with “succeeding”. Mother Theresa once said that “God asks me to be faithful, not successful”.

 

[Chris_G]

LSK:

I absolutely understand what you are saying, Chris, and you are correct. But I know that people use the title "devout’ to ok a multitude of behaviors - to ‘ok’ them if you will - and while forgiveness is always what to aim for I absolutely understand why Karin is still very resentful of a man who promised to love and honor her and beat her up instead.
However, he certainly did NOT fullfill his gender role, he deeply disappointed his wife, he broke his marriage vows the MOMENT he laid his hands upon her in anger and that marriage was (in my humble and unlearned yet obvious heated opinion) null because that man was unFIT for marriage if he thought he should ever EVER put his hand on his wife in anger. That was not a marriage at ALL and I would be shocked and surprised if any compentent canon lawyer or tribunal would uphold as valid a marriage in which either partner repeatedly assaulted their spouse.

However, that is not what this thread is about and I think Karin threw in a smoke screen to make her point.

Agreed. He was a lousy husband. That doesn’t equate to “lousy Catholic”. And nothing personal against her, but we are only hearing one side of the story. She may, I repeat may, have been a lousy wife. And NO, NO, NO, it wouldn’t be an excuse for him to abuse her if she was. I’m just stating that there are two sides to every story. We only have one right now.

 

[Chris_G]

Rob's Wife:

No. It’s not. It’s a neccessity of life. Who does brings home the check doesn’t make it anything more than that.

So, a husband that brings home a paycheck is “only” providing a neccessity of life (like food, clothing, shelter, etc). Big deal, right? Wrong. He’s being a good husband in that regard. A VERY IMPORTANT regard. You trivializing it is very telling. That type of trivialization of my efforts and struggles to provide for my family would not go over too well in my household. Thank God my wife appreciates and values my efforts much more than that.

 

[Chris_G]

Yes, I can read. And no where does it say men should earn a paycheck and wives should stay home. You completely make up that connection.

You’ve made a false accusation, and I respectfully request that you back it up with facts or submit an apology. I never made the connection. I only posted the verse because you misquoted it while admonishing someone else for not “reading the verses that follow”. I don’t like it when people say that the Bible says what it doesn’t.

 

[Chris_G]

Convert68:

God created us male OR female and increasingly all scientific evidence shows that we are what God intended us to be - completely different. We have different roles to perform and are designed accordingly. Humans foster their offspring longer than any other species. It’s as if puppies and kittens were dependent on their parents until they were 4 years old! Horses stand up and walk on their first day of life. Compare that to our children. If God had intended us to be the same and interchangible, He would have created as bisexual hermaphrodites - creatures capable of fully functioning as male and female. Instead he designed half of us to be mostly concerned with bearing and raising children and the other half to support them. Imagine a world in which everyone between 20 and 40 was pregnant most of the time. Until the 20th century that was how it was for most married women. They needed the support of others including those who could reproduce without being pregnant. Men have a large role to play that goes way beyond being just sperm providers. That is what marriage does - it changes sperm providers into fathers. If men and women are identical and interchangible except for reproductive functions, then men can be seen as largely redundant. If women are as good or better at everything than men, then women will get stuck doing everything. As we have seen in our brave new world, women, children and good men are the losers. Men are different from women in many respects - we can reproduce without being pregnant; we’re designed to be taller and have greater muscle mass; more or more scientific evidence shows that we think differently from women; we are more inclinded to take risks. Men and women are specialized beings with entirely different roles to play in the family. Christian marriage recognizes and respects that fact and is designed to bring out the best and get the most out of everyone.

Very well put. And scientific evidence is pointing more and more to the fact that woman are more emotional than men, by design, not because they have been “conditioned” by society. That “conditioning” nonsense is just that. Propogated by the same “concerned” society that gave us the wonderful gift of birth control. And look where that has got us.

 

[Chris_G]

Truthseeker4:

I am in submission to my dh because he wants me to work outside the home.

What does the Catechism state on woman working? What about Proverbs 31?

Melissa

If he insists that you work outside the home, then I suggest that maybe he’s not holding up his end of the deal that says to “love yoru wife”.

 

[Chris_G]

Yes Mothers can earn a paycheck. Yes Fathers can stay at home and take care of the kids. Both are perfectly capable. But it’s not the ideal. Just because Mom could earn more because she has a Masters or whatever, doesn’t mean that she should. And just because a man can stay home and take care of the kids, doesn’t mean that he should. Aside from the anti-Catholic slant to some of these replies, I notice that what is missing from pro-Dad-stay-at-home-ers is any sort of (name removed by moderator)ut on what example Jesus gave us.
It’s no wonder children today are growing up confused about what it means to be a man or a woman, or a Mother or a Father. Between these attitudes, the prevalence and acceptance of divorce, and the accepted use of birth control, we’ve got our work cut out for us.

 

[migurl]

A good catholic father is affectionate torwards his family. No one is saying that a man can’t nurture, just that the ideal situation based on how God made man and woman is for the husband to work and the wife to stay home and focus on her family.

 

[Karin]

Chris G:

Agreed. He was a lousy husband. That doesn’t equate to “lousy Catholic”. And nothing personal against her, but we are only hearing one side of the story. She may, I repeat may, have been a lousy wife. And NO, NO, NO, it wouldn’t be an excuse for him to abuse her if she was. I’m just stating that there are two sides to every story. We only have one right now.

Oh I have to laugh. So doing the laundry, cooking three plus meals a day, cleaning, being a mother and many other numerous things is a “bad wife”??

 

[Karin]

Chris G:

Exactly. That’s why I objected to the use of “devout Catholic” in the first place. Any husband that beats his wife is a sinner. Doesn’t really matter if he was a “devout” Catholic or not, but she felt the need to add it, as if that had something to do with the abuse. It was a backhanded insult.

And being “devout” has nothing to do with “succeeding”. Mother Theresa once said that “God asks me to be faithful, not successful”.

Let me clarify for all that question my choice of words…I used the words “devout Catholic” to make a point (sarcastic at that, sorry) that this is not what a “good” Catholic would do…totally goes against what the Church teaches (if I am wrong and the Church says it is ok to hit your wife please let me know).

 

[Katie1723]

Excuse me, but how can someone proclaim to be a devout Catholic AND yet be an abuser? Sounds like a bit of an oxymoron to me.
~ Kathy ~

 

[Karin]

Katie1723:

Excuse me, but how can someone proclaim to be a devout Catholic AND yet be an abuser? Sounds like a bit of an oxymoron to me.

~ Kathy ~

That is what i thought…that is why I used that term…but some people took offense to it…so I have apologized and also explained why I used that term.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Chris G:

So, a husband that brings home a paycheck is “only” providing a neccessity of life (like food, clothing, shelter, etc). Big deal, right? Wrong. He’s being a good husband in that regard. A VERY IMPORTANT regard. You trivializing it is very telling. That type of trivialization of my efforts and struggles to provide for my family would not go over too well in my household. Thank God my wife appreciates and values my efforts much more than that.

Actually I respect my dh quite a bit for his hard work for his family. Just as he respects the hard work I do for our family. (Heaven help you if you think being a home schooling SAHM isn’t work!)

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Interesting that you think your “efforts and struggles” make you a good husband, but if your wife were dong it - you’d think her a bad wife. That’s very telling of you.

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I agree being willing to work hard for their family is a good trait in a man. I just don’t think where they do that hard work is an issue. If a dh stays home, that’s just as hard (if not harder) and just as deserving of respect.

 

[Karin]

Actually I respect my dh quite a bit for his hard work for his family. Just as he respects the hard work I do for our family. (Heaven help you if you think being a home schooling SAHM isn’t work!)

Interesting that you think your “efforts and struggles” make you a good husband, but if your wife were dong it - you’d think her a bad wife. That’s very telling of you.

I agree being willing to work hard for their family is a good trait in a man. I just don’t think where they do that hard work is an issue. If a dh stays home, that’s just as hard (if not harder) and just as deserving of respect.

:clapping: let me say that IMHO being a stay at home mom or dad is one if not the toughest job there is!! Jus think of all that you are responsible for especially in regards to the children…once again IMHO if you screw up at home the result is massive (especially in regards to the kids)

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Chris G:

You’ve made a false accusation, and I respectfully request that you back it up with facts or submit an apology. I never made the connection. I only posted the verse because you misquoted it while admonishing someone else for not “reading the verses that follow”. I don’t like it when people say that the Bible says what it doesn’t.

Then stop doing it! No where in your quotes has it said anything about who should earn the paycheck and who should stay home. You make up the connection because it is what you believe - not because that’s what it says.

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The bible says a man should love his wife and a wife should respect her husband. YOU make the assuption that they must have the dh earning the check and the wife at home in order to be fullfilling that - you have no logical connection to the very scripture you use to make that claim.

 

[buffalo]

Anonymous:

Unlike my husband, I have a college degree. I am in a better position to support our family financially. DH stays home and supports the family in different ways. I too am pregnant with our third child. It is wonderful to know I am not alone!

Earning potential trumps everything nowadays. Recent stats show that 57% of college graduates are now women. Look out! men are dropping out of the educational system and guess where that will eventually lead. Women who want it all will have to do it all.

 

[buffalo]

Katie1723:

Excuse me, but how can someone proclaim to be a devout Catholic AND yet be an abuser? Sounds like a bit of an oxymoron to me.

                          ~ Kathy ~

Devout doesn’t mean you have succeeded. It means you believe and are trying. Men ans women fail everyday - it’s called sin. Some sins worse than others, but still sin.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Chris G:

If he insists that you work outside the home, then I suggest that maybe he’s not holding up his end of the deal that says to “love yoru wife”.

Oh geez, what nonsense.

Yes Mothers can earn a paycheck. Yes Fathers can stay at home and take care of the kids. Both are perfectly capable. But it’s not the ideal.
Again, assumptions here. It may be the ideal for that family. Not every family, but that family.

Just because Mom could earn more because she has a Masters or whatever, doesn’t mean that she should. And just because a man can stay home and take care of the kids, doesn’t mean that he should.
Of course not! They should do what is best for their family as a whole. Life is not just about what we can do, it’s about what we should do. For some families they may decide that the best thing they should do is have dad stay home.

Aside from the anti-Catholic slant to some of these replies,

More nonsense. I haven’t heard an anti-catholic slant yet. No where does the Church or the bible say you have to have the dad earning the check and the SAHM to be Catholic. Nor does it say you are less than Catholic if you don’t.

I notice that what is missing from pro-Dad-stay-at-home-ers is any sort of (name removed by moderator)ut on what example Jesus gave us.

What? Don’t get married or earn a check? Jesus was an unmarried man living with His mother until He started His mission. He may have supported his mother with paying work until He started His missionary work. After that He was unemployeed as a missionary. Jesus is the Son of God. Where does Jesus say anything about gender roles?

It’s no wonder children today are growing up confused about what it means to be a man or a woman, or a Mother or a Father. Between these attitudes
Oh please. Just because a guy is a SAHD, doesn’t mean he acts like a woman. Same goes for the wife working. If anything, I can see much good for dc, especially sons, in having a SAHD.

the prevalence and acceptance of divorce, and the accepted use of birth control, we’ve got our work cut out for us.
On these last points, I agree.

EDA: changed that He was unemployeed and living with mother. It is very likely that He worked while livng with His mother.

 

[Karin]

buffalo:

Earning potential trumps everything nowadays. Recent stats show that 57% of college graduates are now women. Look out! men are dropping out of the educational system and guess where that will eventually lead. Women who want it all will have to do it all.

Who said anything about wanting to do it all? Do you assume this because woman are getting educated at a rate that is higher than that of men? I hope you are not implying something is wrong with education of woman?
But …if men are not there to support their families or not able to support them who do you think is going to do it…the obvious answer would be the wife if she is so qualified.