Genesis 3:14-15

[Vico]

But how do I pass the test when I’m imperfect and guaranteed fo fail? If God did not guarantee the grace, he can deny it easily and game over, I am lost.

If God DID guarantee the grace, then he broke his promise, and is untrustworthy. I can’t go there.

God is not allowed to say no if he promised otherwise.

A human is only guaranteed to fail on his own. With the grace of God the faithful can remain in sanctifying grace, guaranteed. It does require that the grace be cooperated with.

 

[BobCatholic]

A human is only guaranteed to fail on his own. With the grace of God the faithful can remain in sanctifying grace, guaranteed. It does require that the grace be cooperated with.

My cooperation is imperfect and guaranteed to fail. I’m imperfect and full of lose.

 

[Vico]

My cooperation is imperfect and guaranteed to fail. I’m imperfect and full of lose.

If it is venial sin, then it is an imperfection, but does not prevent salvation. However, a mortal sin can only occur if one willfully sins in grave matter, with sufficient reflection.

 

[jcrichton]

False.

I’m worthless because I’m imperfect and have no value to God. This is why God does not want me.

I can’t overcome my weaknesses and imperfections so I"m basically screwed.

Hi, Bob!

…your feeling of imperfection was shared by Luther, Calvin and others… they took it to such extremes that they rejected any possibility of Salvation… they went as far as creating a scenario where God whimsically chooses to damn some while just as la-di-da chooses others for Salvation…

…of course you are a lowly speck of dust… so is the Universe… but as St. Paul asserts:

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

(1 Corinthians 15:56-57)

It is Christ Who Gives us value… the Power to become children of God (St. John 1:1-14)

…I apologize if I’ve misconstrued your argument… but if you take a few steps back and unbiasedly scrutinize your methodology you will come to very similar conclusions…

May the Child-God bring you the Peace your home needs and desires!

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BobCatholic]

Hi, Bob!

…your feeling of imperfection was shared by Luther, Calvin and others… they took it to such extremes that they rejected any possibility of Salvation… they went as far as creating a scenario where God whimsically chooses to damn some while just as la-di-da chooses others for Salvation…

I know. Unfortunately, I’m not interested in starting my own church, Christ made one and that’s the one I need.

It is Christ Who Gives us value… the Power to become children of God (St. John 1:1-14)

How to overcome the imperfections so I can actually get closer to God? He doesn’t want me the way I am.

 

[jcrichton]

I know. Unfortunately, I’m not interested in starting my own church, Christ made one and that’s the one I need.

Hi, Bob!

Please do not misunderstand me… I’m not suggesting that you should start your own church or that you want to emulate Luther and his compadres; I was attempting to bridge your path with theirs…

It is more than proper to see ourselves as creatures/servants with low estimation… but it is not edifying to the Body of Christ to profess that man is beyond God’s Grace and Mercy or that God has somehow “fixed” Salvation so that man can only toil in his own vomit without recourse.

Does Christ give me the ability to overcome my imperfections, even if His father denies it?

…this is part of the melee that you’ve gotten yourself into… you continue to divide God into teams: the first, using Omnipotence against you while the latter, giving you only spiritual respite in a long-distant futuristic occurrence.

So how do I get around this? I ask to have my imperfections fixed, God says no but demands I be perfect anyway. I see this as unreasonable.

**How to overcome the imperfections **

so I can actually get closer to God? He doesn’t want me the way I am.
Bob, here’s what St. James tells us about our relationship with God:

1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

(St. James 4:1-3)
Man’s struggles and battles are not simply just internal (self) and external (the world)… they are (as I believe yours is) against God. These battles and struggles keep us from receiving God’s Grace… we face up to God as our foe; we make demands; we make concessions; we make vows (promises); we break the same vows; we demand, as Israel, to have our own earthly kings and princes… to be allow self-governance… to be allowed to be free…

Yet, as St. James clarifies… all of our desires and our aspirations are motivated by the temporal… the motives are wrong because it is about self-love.

When we engage the world and its problems, every victory is our own (God has no place in it); when we face trouble, difficulties and failures, every single one of these we attribute to God’s lack of support, protection, and Providence.

…Mom struggled with ailments for many many years… not once did she ever complaint about her plight; when I would visit her during her hospital stays she was of the same spirit… while others around her would course God and even the people attending them… Mom would be praying the Rosary, Novenas, reading Scriptures… at home,on one occasion a new nurse came to see her; I opened the door, she walked in, saw Mom sitting on a recliner, dismissed her and began to look for the “patient.” As she entered the apartment she could see in three directions (Mom’s bedroom, the bathroom, the living room); as she took in the information a perplexed expression formed on her face: ‘…where’s the patient?’ I noticed and asked her if she was looking for the patient… she had a whimsical smile as she responded that she in deed was looking for the patient…

Bob, from her charts, the nurse could not connect Mom to the extremely ill patient to whom she was sent to tend!

…it was the same experience for the various Church members (Priests, Extra Ordinary Minister of the Eucharist and others)–none of them could understand how Mom could have such Peace… they thought that they were coming to raise the spirits of a sister that was ill and homebound… in reality, her testimony of Faith, her reliance on God’s Providence, and her Trust in Jesus uplifted them… her last EOME (who would visit her with his whole family) took me aside one time and told me that he was moving out of town (Mom would no longer be his responsibility)–he asked if he could still be Mom’s EOME; he felt a deep obligation to serve Mom…

Mom’s greatest need and desire was to serve God and to receive the Holy Eucharist: God had provided for both Mom and her Extra Ordinary Minister of the Eucharist and opportunity to Unite in the Body of Christ!

Mom offered all of her Life’s experiences to the Father, through Christ! Mom’s power was not above other human beings… she felt the same pain and oppression brought about by the various debilitating ailments that others suffer… the difference was that Mom allowed Christ to be her strength.

When we give ourselves to God’s Providence all the imperfections are melted away:

6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

(1 St. Peter 1:6-7)

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Vico]

…

How to overcome the imperfections so I can actually get closer to God? He doesn’t want me the way I am.

Catechism

I. THE HUMAN VIRTUES

1804 Human virtues are firm attitudes, stable dispositions, habitual perfections of intellect and will that govern our actions, order our passions, and guide our conduct according to reason and faith. They make possible ease, self-mastery, and joy in leading a morally good life. The virtuous man is he who freely practices the good.

The moral virtues are acquired by human effort. They are the fruit and seed of morally good acts; they dispose all the powers of the human being for communion with divine love.

**The cardinal virtues
**
1805 Four virtues play a pivotal role and accordingly are called “cardinal”; all the others are grouped around them. They are: prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance. "If anyone loves righteousness, [Wisdom’s] labors are virtues; for she teaches temperance and prudence, justice, and courage."64 These virtues are praised under other names in many passages of Scripture.

The virtues and grace

1812 The human virtues are rooted in the theological virtues, which adapt man’s faculties for participation in the divine nature:76 for the theological virtues relate directly to God. They dispose Christians to live in a relationship with the Holy Trinity. They have the One and Triune God for their origin, motive, and object.

1813 The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a7.htm

 

[BobCatholic]

It is more than proper to see ourselves as creatures/servants with low estimation… but it is not edifying to the Body of Christ to profess that man is beyond God’s Grace and Mercy or that God has somehow “fixed” Salvation so that man can only toil in his own vomit without recourse.

I’m hoping to be one day promoted to servant, right now I"m just a worthless speck of dust. Until then I can only toil in my own vomit without recourse.

If God says no to giving me the grace to overcome my imperfections, then I cannot do it on my own (without me you can do nothing, remember Jesus said that?)

…this is part of the melee that you’ve gotten yourself into… you continue to divide God into teams: the first, using Omnipotence against you while the latter, giving you only spiritual respite in a long-distant futuristic occurrence.

There is no respite here. If there is, that’s more mercy and that is good. But it is not guaranteed.

Yet, as St. James clarifies… all of our desires and our aspirations are motivated by the temporal… the motives are wrong because it is about self-love.

Correct. This is about self-love. And self love is evil because the self is evil.

When we engage the world and its problems, every victory is our own (God has no place in it);

I disagree. If I’m cooperating with the grace of God, the victory is God’s - I’m must a vessel.

.

Bob, from her charts, the nurse could not connect Mom to the extremely ill patient to whom she was sent to tend!

This is like me looking for God. I’m told that God is infinitely merciful, I meet a God who holds back mercy in the temporal realm. I’m told that God is infinitely giving, and I meet a God who holds back on the temporal. As a result, my experience makes me unable to find God.

When we give ourselves to God’s Providence all the imperfections are melted away:

I’m told that God’s providence is a great thing, I meet a God who’s will is capricious and arbitrary.

So why do I get this? Why can’t I find the God you tell me about? Why is he impossible to find for me?

Why won’t God be consistent?

 

[BobCatholic]

The moral virtues are acquired by human effort

And we have a contradiction here.

If the virtues are acquired by human effort then God is not in the equation, and man can boast of his virtue. Grace is not in the equation.

But man cannot boast of his virtue, isn’t it de fide that God gives us sufficient grace to do the virtues (I.e. follow the commandments)?

Without grace, man cannot do any good. (without me you can do nothing)

So I guess I’m a dissenter on Church teaching here. I believe that without grace, we cannot do the virtues.

 

[goout]

And we have a contradiction here.

If the virtues are acquired by human effort then God is not in the equation, and man can boast of his virtue. Grace is not in the equation.

But man cannot boast of his virtue, isn’t it de fide that God gives us sufficient grace to do the virtues (I.e. follow the commandments)?

Without grace, man cannot do any good. (without me you can do nothing)

So I guess I’m a dissenter on Church teaching here. I believe that without grace, we cannot do the virtues.

Grace is not force. Grace is gift. Grace asks for a relationship.

Reception of a gift requires the cooperation of the receiver. In the practice of virtue we become more receptive of the gifts God showers on us, and more co-operative in our relationship with God. Co-operation.
“your grace is sufficient for me” says Paul after he bemoans his struggles.

 

[BobCatholic]

Grace is not force. Grace is gift. Grace asks for a relationship.

Reception of a gift requires the cooperation of the receiver. In the practice of virtue we become more receptive of the gifts God showers on us, and more co-operative in our relationship with God. Co-operation.
“your grace is sufficient for me” says Paul after he bemoans his struggles.

Since I"m imperfect, my cooperation is imperfect and will not be sufficient. It is impossible for me to cooperate in a way that makes God happy because I’m so imperfect. So I ask God to take away my imperfections, God says no, so there’s no way for me to please God. Therefore, I"m doomed and have no hope.

How can I Ever know I can ever cooperate decently?

 

[goout]

Since I"m imperfect, my cooperation is imperfect and will not be sufficient.

Right. We are not self-perfected. Perfection (sanctity) is perfected by grace not by our unilateral cooperation. It’s a relationship on both ends.
God desires our cooperation. Faith is a response to grace.

It is impossible for me to cooperate in a way that makes God happy because I’m so imperfect. So I ask God to take away my imperfections, God says no, so there’s no way for me to please God. Therefore, I"m doomed and have no hope.

Yes, it is apparent that you do not hope. Respectfully, your conception of god is not God, it is the god of your conception. God is pleased with you. You are not pleased with you. But your conceptions do not change God’s real love for you.

How can I Ever know I can ever cooperate decently?

Cooperation is not an amount of something.
Let’s call cooperation “faith”. Faith is God’s grace working in me to which I respond. It’s not an amount of something. Even the smallest “please help me God” is cooperation.

For me, in cooperation I plunge forward and trust that if I give God whatever small thing I have to give, he will pull me closer to him.

And honestly, the darkest moments given to God are the most profitable. I am not pandering to you Bob, I am telling you that the mind numbing depressions and terrors and disappointments, when given to God, have been the most profound occasions of grace for me.

 

[BobCatholic]

Right. We are not self-perfected. Perfection (sanctity) is perfected by grace not by our unilateral cooperation. It’s a relationship on both ends.
God desires our cooperation. Faith is a response to grace.

And I want that relationship with God. Desperately. Instead, I"m pushed away, and rejected. I’m going through the “dark night of the senses” without the prerequisite warm fuzzies and awesome spiritual experience.

Respectfully, your conception of god is not God, it is the god of your conception. God is pleased with you. You are not pleased with you. But your conceptions do not change God’s real love for you.

I want to know the God you talk about.

I really want to know him.

I am told God loves me. My experience is not very loving. Or I can’t recognize the love.

I am told God wants me, and is chasing me. I tried many times attempts to get to him, and failed.

Why is my experience of God contrary to how he is? Why is God so inconsistent?

Let’s call cooperation “faith”. Faith is God’s grace working in me to which I respond. It’s not an amount of something. Even the smallest “please help me God” is cooperation.

I thought faith was more trusting God, like when I have a personal relationship with God, I know who he is, and I can TRUST him - not just with my soul, but with EVERYTHING.

I. Don.t. Have. This. Relationship.

I don’t have a personal relationship with God, I only have a corporate relationship.

And honestly, the darkest moments given to God are the most profitable. I am not pandering to you Bob, I am telling you that the mind numbing depressions and terrors and disappointments, when given to God, have been the most profound occasions of grace for me.

The worst part is the lack of communication from God on his part. If God only gave me some inkling he was pleased with me doing that.

Yes, God loves to be lazy and say “someone else do it” - why not him doing it for a change? Am I evil in asking for this because it is like putting God to the test?

 

[Vico]

And we have a contradiction here.

If the virtues are acquired by human effort then God is not in the equation, and man can boast of his virtue. Grace is not in the equation.

But man cannot boast of his virtue, isn’t it de fide that God gives us sufficient grace to do the virtues (I.e. follow the commandments)?

Without grace, man cannot do any good. (without me you can do nothing)

So I guess I’m a dissenter on Church teaching here. I believe that without grace, we cannot do the virtues.

There is a difference between morally good acts and salutary acts and meritorious acts (good works). Morally good acts may be neither salutary nor meritorious. Salutary acts and meritorious acts are aided by grace, but no merit is acquired without the state of grace even though done under the influence of grace.

Modern catholic Dictionary

Salutary Act

Human action that is performed under the influence of grace and that positively leads a person to a heavenly destiny. The grace of a salutary act must be at least actual grace, whether a person is in the state of grace or not. If one is in the state of grace, the action is not only salutary but also meritorius. While the Church has not officially pronounced on the subject, it is common teaching that the justified also require actual grace for the performance of salutary acts. (Etym. Latin salus, health, well-being.)

Good Works

Morally good acts that, when performed in the state of grace, merit supernatural reward. The term became highly controverted in Reformation times, when the leaders of Protestantism, notably Martin Luther (1483-1546), claimed that faith alone, and not good works, justifies. Implicit in the Catholic doctrine on good works is the belief that man’s nature has not been totally depraved by reason of Adam’s fall. Man is able freely to cooperate with divine grace to perform good works. His liberty is not totally enslaved by sin.

This is the teaching of the Catholic Faith (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma):

For the performance of a morally good action Sanctifying Grace is not required. (De fide.)

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary. (De fide.)

 

[jcrichton]

I’m hoping to be one day promoted to servant, right now I"m just a worthless speck of dust. Until then I can only toil in my own vomit without recourse.

If God says no to giving me the grace to overcome my imperfections, then I cannot do it on my own (without me you can do nothing, remember Jesus said that?)

There is no respite here. If there is, that’s more mercy and that is good. But it is not guaranteed.

Correct. This is about self-love. And self love is evil because the self is evil.

I disagree. If I’m cooperating with the grace of God, the victory is God’s - I’m must a vessel.

.

This is like me looking for God. I’m told that God is infinitely merciful, I meet a God who holds back mercy in the temporal realm. I’m told that God is infinitely giving, and I meet a God who holds back on the temporal. As a result, my experience makes me unable to find God.

I’m told that God’s providence is a great thing, I meet a God who’s will is capricious and arbitrary.

So why do I get this? Why can’t I find the God you tell me about? Why is he impossible to find for me?

Why won’t God be consistent?

Hi, Bob!

…we have, again, come to that dreaded point in our interchange… no matter what I offer you will continue to seek God through your own understanding (that which you have crafted); there’s nothing that I can offer to help you advance in your quest for God.

I pray that the Holy Spirit, Who is infinitely Wiser and of infinite Patience takes you into His Counsel–though I am afraid you will continue to Resist Him every step of the Way.

May God’s Love and Mercy Reign in your Home.

Merry Christmas!
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Vico]

And we have a contradiction here.

If the virtues are acquired by human effort then God is not in the equation, and man can boast of his virtue. Grace is not in the equation.

But man cannot boast of his virtue, isn’t it de fide that God gives us sufficient grace to do the virtues (I.e. follow the commandments)?

Without grace, man cannot do any good. (without me you can do nothing)

So I guess I’m a dissenter on Church teaching here. I believe that without grace, we cannot do the virtues.

I did not include some of the items (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma) in the last post, here they are:

• The Grace of Faith is not necessary for the performance of a morally good action. (Sent. certa.)
• Actual Grace is not necessary for the performance of a morally good action. (Sent. certa.)

Denzinger 1022, 1027, ST. PIUS V 1566-1572, Errors of Michael du Bay (BAII), [Condemned in the Bull “Ex omnibus afflictionibus,” Oct. 1, 1567] – these are condemned errors:

1. They agree with Pelagius who understand the text of the Apostle to the Romans: “The nations, who do not have a law, do naturally the things, which are of the law” [Rom. 2:14], concerning nations who do not possess the grace of faith.
2. Free will, without the help of God’s grace, has only power for sin.

 

[BobCatholic]

There is a difference between morally good acts and salutary acts and meritorious acts (good works). Morally good acts may be neither salutary nor meritorious. Salutary acts and meritorious acts are aided by grace, but no merit is acquired without the state of grace even though done under the influence of grace.

One of the problems i"m struggling with, is that I"m imperfect. As an imperfect mortal, my thinking is imperfect. My cooperation with grace is imperfect. I can never know if I’m doing good enough. I can never know if my acts are good deeds or meritorious acts. I can’t even tell if I’m in the state of grace. Of course, I can truthfully say I’m not aware of any mortal sins on my soul (and if there were, I’m going to confession stat!)

What if I’m fooling myself, and I think I’m doing good deeds and things that are meritorious but in reality, I’m a reprobate fooling himself?

This is why I need feedback from the Big Boss himself. I need to hear from him.

Or God can provide someone who knows how to read souls and allow our paths to cross.

 

[Vico]

One of the problems i"m struggling with, is that I"m imperfect. As an imperfect mortal, my thinking is imperfect. My cooperation with grace is imperfect. I can never know if I’m doing good enough. I can never know if my acts are good deeds or meritorious acts. I can’t even tell if I’m in the state of grace. Of course, I can truthfully say I’m not aware of any mortal sins on my soul (and if there were, I’m going to confession stat!)

What if I’m fooling myself, and I think I’m doing good deeds and things that are meritorious but in reality, I’m a reprobate fooling himself?

This is why I need feedback from the Big Boss himself. I need to hear from him.

Or God can provide someone who knows how to read souls and allow our paths to cross.

“I"m imperfect. As an imperfect mortal, my thinking is imperfect.” describes everyone.

However you are telling the future by saying you “can never know”. That is self-defeating and recommended in Cognitive Psychology to abandon that kind of thinking.

 

[BobCatholic]

However you are telling the future by saying you “can never know”. That is self-defeating and recommended in Cognitive Psychology to abandon that kind of thinking.

OK, so how CAN I know for sure that

• I’m truly in a state of grace
• I’m doing things that are meritorious.
• I’m actually pleasing God with my pathetic attempts.

I don’t want to be the Pharisee who prays to himself in that parable.

 

[Vico]

OK, so how CAN I know for sure that

• I’m truly in a state of grace
• I’m doing things that are meritorious.
• I’m actually pleasing God with my pathetic attempts.

I don’t want to be the Pharisee who prays to himself in that parable.

Contrition for all sins of your life, and firm resolution to sin no more and to avoid the near occasions of sin are required for absolution. So make sure you have those when you confess serious sins and you can be sure.