Geocentrism: Gary Hoge's Demonstration Disproven?

  • Thread starter Thread starter trth_skr
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
trth_skr:
The planets (earth is not included) orbit the sun. Therefor the retrograde motion is an effect of observing Mars from a fixed earth, while Mars orbits the sun, which is travelling around the earth in its annual (and daily) cycle. Gerardus Buow describes the situation here:
The dynamics of the situations you show don’t wash. First, the Martian orbital speed is much different in the geocentric case, meaning that we shouldn’t be able to send spacecraft to Mars using heliocentric calculations, much less complilcated orbital maneuvers like gravity-assist from a number of different planets. Second, given that probes are on Mars already, we’d be able to detect a noticeable doppler shift in their transmissions due to the increased relative velocity with respect to a stationary Earth. And these are just two elementary difficulties with the above picture.
 
40.png
scm:
I was just thinking about orbits. That the time it takes for one complete orbit is based on the radius of the orbit.
Are Geocentrics saying that the sun, moon and stars are all at the same distance from the earth? If so and we see relative movement among them, how is it that they dont hit each other?
I mean, they are saying that they make an orbit every 24 hours arent they?

The moon clearly passes between the earth and the sun in an eclipse. If it was at a distance for a 24 hour orbit and so was the sun, how is that possible?

[edit] forgot to say… Isn’t the thing about periods of orbits pretty well proven, since we use that to put up sattelites that orbit the earth, and they behave the way we expect them to?
The distances between the planets and the sun, and earth and the sun, and even earth and any planet (all including earth’s moon) at any time is the same in either system. We can only make relative measurements between these objects, and the measurements will be the same in either Geocentric or heliocentric (or acentric) systems.

The systems are equivalent in terms of relative positions and distances of all objects in the solar system

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
40.png
wanerious:
The dynamics of the situations you show don’t wash. First, the Martian orbital speed is much different in the geocentric case, meaning that we shouldn’t be able to send spacecraft to Mars using heliocentric calculations, much less complilcated orbital maneuvers like gravity-assist from a number of different planets. Second, given that probes are on Mars already, we’d be able to detect a noticeable doppler shift in their transmissions due to the increased relative velocity with respect to a stationary Earth. And these are just two elementary difficulties with the above picture.
Basically the same answer as above (forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=707589&postcount=120)

Relative speeds between objects in the two systems are also the same. There is no controversy that the Tycho Brahe system is functionally equivalent to the Corpenican. The modern Tychonian is also functionally equivalent ot the Keplerian.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
scm and wanerious:

Both of you are misunderstanding that transforming from a sun centered system to an earth centered system does not change the relative relation between objects in the solar system. Go to this web site and download a trial version of SimSolar. It shows the annual movement of the solar system. You can choose earth as the center. If you change to earth as the center you woill notice that the sun moves around the earth and the planets move around the sun. Try it.
pwr-tools.com/simsolar/

The basic relation between all the planets, earth, and sun does not change, only where you are fixed (sun or earth) changes. This is not smoke and mirrors. What Ellis said is correct:

'People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations,…For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations." Ellis has published a paper on this. “You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds. In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong in that. What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that.”.

W. Wayt Gibbs, “Profile: George F. R. Ellis,” Scientific American, October 1995, Vol. 273, No.4, p. 55.


www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
40.png
trth_skr:
scm and wanerious:

Both of you are misunderstanding that transforming from a sun centered system to an earth centered system does not change the relative relation between objects in the solar system. Go to this web site and download a trial version of SimSolar. It shows the annual movement of the solar system. You can choose earth as the center. If you change to earth as the center you woill notice that the sun moves around the earth and the planets move around the sun. Try it.
pwr-tools.com/simsolar/

The basic relation between all the planets, earth, and sun does not change, only where you are fixed (sun or earth) changes. This is not smoke and mirrors. What Ellis said is correct:

'People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations,…For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations." Ellis has published a paper on this. “You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds. In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong in that. What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that.”.

W. Wayt Gibbs, “Profile: George F. R. Ellis,” Scientific American, October 1995, Vol. 273, No.4, p. 55.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
You ignored my question about the physics of an orbit.
If the sun and moon are at different distances from the earth, which you agree to, how can they both be in a 24 hour orbit?

We can compute where the 24 hour orbit is, its radius from the earth, we can put a sattelite there, and neither the sun nor moon is at the right distance for such an orbit.

Sure you can say that the sun and moon appear to revolve around the earth every 24 hours, but that does not mean they do so in reality. In reality they can not be because neither one is at the radius of a 24 hour orbit.
 
40.png
scm:
You ignored my question about the physics of an orbit.
If the sun and moon are at different distances from the earth, which you agree to, how can they both be in a 24 hour orbit?

We can compute where the 24 hour orbit is, its radius from the earth, we can put a sattelite there, and neither the sun nor moon is at the right distance for such an orbit.

Sure you can say that the sun and moon appear to revolve around the earth every 24 hours, but that does not mean they do so in reality. In reality they can not be because neither one is at the radius of a 24 hour orbit.
OK, I see what you are saying now.

The sun and moon and other objects in the universe are not orbiting the earth in a satellite sense. In fact the entire universe is rotating with the earth at the center. This is where Misner, Thorne and Wheeler come in (GRAVITATION, pp. 1117-1119). They showed that, using Mach’s principle, a gyroscopic effect is produced in a rotating star frame against a geostatic earth, so much so, that it would not allow the earth to be moved, including rotationally. In other words, the universe attempts to stabilize its center (like a gyroscope), and that is where the earth is.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
40.png
JimG:
OK, so we have our Sun located on one arm of a spiral galaxy. Our sun has a planetary system in which the earth is the third planet out. The next nearest star is some 4 light years away. Yet the universe is populated by millions of similar galaxies comprised of a wide variety of stars in varying stages of development, many probably with planetary systems.

This picture of the universe presented by modern cosmology is one of galaxies which are rather evenly distributed throughout space; while space is expanding in a manner analogous to the surface of an expanding balloon. Dots on the balloon represent galaxies, while the two dimensional surface of the balloon represents our normal 3-dimensional space. (The interior of the balloon may be envisioned as filling up with the passage of time, rather than air.)

Now, when I think of one galaxy (ours) out of those millions, and one star (ours) within that galaxy, and one planet (ours) within that solar system, and try to conceive of *everything else *in the entire expanding universe rotating around that one planet, the idea is simply ridiculous.
Perhaps, other than the fact that God chose to make earth the center of his creation.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
40.png
trth_skr:
Perhaps, other than the fact that God chose to make earth the center of his creation.
We’re not pagans. We don’t have sacred mountains or holy groves

Location is unimportant

God is everywhere and the entire universe is His creation
The smallest carbuncle of a planet in the furthest dark nebula is as important as the brightest star.

And while you can, through choice of frame of reference, assume that the earth is standing still that is not a "geocentric” theory since you’ve already admitted that the planets orbit the sun in your model and even if we are standing still and the other galaxies are whizzing past us, the stars in those galaxies are rotating around their own center of mass.

When Ellis or whoever else you cite, states that you can’t determine the difference through observation he is right only to an extent. The visual data of apparent motion of the earth sitting still and the sun moving around it is the same as the sun sitting still and the earth move (or both moving) BUT that would not be consistent with other observed data and would violate laws of gravitation and motion

In other words, we can examine the rest of the universe and observe that, without exception, two bodies orbiting each other will rotate around their common center of mass. The center of mass of the earth and sun is well inside the sun. In fact, from the sun’s point of view it is probably pretty much the same as its own center of mass. So even though saying that the earth rotates around the sun isn’t technically correct it is true for all practical purposes. No shifting frame of reference will change that. An earth stationary view does not fit the preponderance of the data and must be rejected
 
40.png
trth_skr:
OK, I see what you are saying now.

The sun and moon and other objects in the universe are not orbiting the earth in a satellite sense. In fact the entire universe is rotating with the earth at the center. This is where Misner, Thorne and Wheeler come in (GRAVITATION, pp. 1117-1119). They showed that, using Mach’s principle, a gyroscopic effect is produced in a rotating star frame against a geostatic earth, so much so, that it would not allow the earth to be moved, including rotationally. In other words, the universe attempts to stabilize its center (like a gyroscope), and that is where the earth is.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
My mistake, I thought you said the sun orbited the earth. Ok, so if the entire universe is rotating around the Earth, why is there relative motion between the sun and moon and the star field? If nothing is orbiting the earth, but instead rotating, then every element of the universe would have to rotate together, for parts of it to move relative to each other, forces would have to be applied to those parts. Where does the force come from?
 
trth_skr said:
Perhaps, other than the fact that God chose to make earth the center of his creation.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

Hello truth_skr aka Mark :confused:

I’m having some difficulty with your comment, “…the fact that God chose to make earth the center of his creation.” First off, I never heard God say that the earth was the center of creation. My thinking goes more along these lines found in* The Nicene Creed*

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.


The structure of this sentence implies that God figeratively “made” heaven and earth. Please note that it is not planet EARTH rather ‘earth’. The definition suitable for the word earth as used in the creed would in my opinion be ‘the land surface of the world’. In my mind, this would be more up God’s alley and allow plenty of room for aliens that may exist in other galaxies! 😉 As a child I always pondered the possiblity that I may be a creature from a distant far off land who was dropped off on planet Earth for reasons unbeknownst to me. 😃 Oh well, God only knows!
 
Steve Andersen:
We’re not pagans. We don’t have sacred mountains or holy groves

Location is unimportant

God is everywhere and the entire universe is His creation
The smallest carbuncle of a planet in the furthest dark nebula is as important as the brightest star.
This is not true. Location does have signiifcance. The Ark of the Covenant was placed in a very Holy room. It itself was a very Holy object. The Garden of Eden was so Holy that after Adam and Eve were vanquished from it, God had to post Angels to guard against its reentry.

Jerusaleum is a very Holy city to the extent that the Church fought many crusades to defend it against the infidels. Rome is a very Holy city.

The altar is a holier place than the men’s bathroom, etc., so I disagree that location is unimportant- at least to Catholics. A lot of protestants have a minimalist attitude that leads to that kind of thinking.

It is very clear from Scripture that we ar at the center of God’s creation.
Steve Andersen:
And while you can, through choice of frame of reference, assume that the earth is standing still that is not a "geocentric” theory since you’ve already admitted that the planets orbit the sun in your model and even if we are standing still and the other galaxies are whizzing past us, the stars in those galaxies are rotating around their own center of mass.

When Ellis or whoever else you cite, states that you can’t determine the difference through observation he is right only to an extent. The visual data of apparent motion of the earth sitting still and the sun moving around it is the same as the sun sitting still and the earth move (or both moving) BUT that would not be consistent with other observed data and would violate laws of gravitation and motion

In other words, we can examine the rest of the universe and observe that, without exception, two bodies orbiting each other will rotate around their common center of mass. The center of mass of the earth and sun is well inside the sun. In fact, from the sun’s point of view it is probably pretty much the same as its own center of mass. So even though saying that the earth rotates around the sun isn’t technically correct it is true for all practical purposes. No shifting frame of reference will change that. An earth stationary view does not fit the preponderance of the data and must be rejected
Perhaps from a pagan perspective, Geocentrism would not be the most obvious system. But we, as Catholics have unanimous support of the Fathers that Geocentrism is correct. We have the Scriptures, authoritatively interpreted by the Church and Fathers Geocentrically. We have official declarations from three Popes against the notion that the earth moves. We are not just carbonaceous accidents ballistically zinging through an absolute vacuum at the whim, of an unfeeling physics.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
40.png
scm:
My mistake, I thought you said the sun orbited the earth. Ok, so if the entire universe is rotating around the Earth, why is there relative motion between the sun and moon and the star field? If nothing is orbiting the earth, but instead rotating, then every element of the universe would have to rotate together, for parts of it to move relative to each other, forces would have to be applied to those parts. Where does the force come from?
The relative motion comes from an annual precession of the universe on a 23.5 deg. axis (interpreted as the plane of earth’s orbit around the sun in the heliocentric system). See the diagram here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=693469&postcount=67

As far as the forces, gyroscopic systems do precess.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
40.png
ISABUS:
Hello truth_skr aka Mark :confused:

I’m having some difficulty with your comment, “…the fact that God chose to make earth the center of his creation.” First off, I never heard God say that the earth was the center of creation. My thinking goes more along these lines found in* The Nicene Creed*

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.


The structure of this sentence implies that God figeratively “made” heaven and earth. Please note that it is not planet EARTH rather ‘earth’. The definition suitable for the word earth as used in the creed would in my opinion be ‘the land surface of the world’. In my mind, this would be more up God’s alley and allow plenty of room for aliens that may exist in other galaxies! 😉 As a child I always pondered the possiblity that I may be a creature from a distant far off land who was dropped off on planet Earth for reasons unbeknownst to me. 😃 Oh well, God only knows!

First, as I said here,

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=709137&postcount=129

the Church did teach Geocentrism. Secondly, as a general Catholic theological / philosophical principle, man is the greatest of God’s creations, and God did create earth for man.

I try not to get caught up in the aetheistic ‘we are carbon based accidents floating through the void’ or ‘we are just dust in the wind’ type thinking spoon fed to us.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
40.png
trth_skr:
First, as I said here,

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=709137&postcount=129

I try not to get caught up in the aetheistic ‘we are carbon based accidents floating through the void’ or ‘we are just dust in the wind’ type thinking spoon fed to us.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
Trth_stk et al, I think that I’m finally beginning to grasp with a more vibrant understanding “why” you along with other people remain creationists. Could it be that it’s difficult for creationists to envision the unseen becoming seen through an evolutionary process? I’m not making fun of you. Honest. It’s just that I’m really trying to figure out why there exists two opposite opinions on this topic. What you wrote drew me back to an article I recently read in the June issue of Discover magazine, “If An Electron Can Be in 2 Places at Once, Why Can’t YOU?” by Tim Folger. The article is about Sir Roger Penrose.

"Every possible quantum outcome really exists—but in worlds parallel to our own. In one universe, Penrose is talking with me in Oxford; in another, he is watching a monster-truck rally. From this perspective, people and particles behave much the same way. We just do not see them in many places at the same time because each potential location is tucked away in a different universe (see “Quantum Schmantum,” Discover, Septer 2001, posted on our Web site, www.discover.com)).

"Pensrose cannot believe anyone finds either the Copenhagen interpretation or the many worlds picture satisfactory. “If you take the equations of quantum mechanics up to the level where you can actually see things going on, you’re driven to an absurd viewpoint. People are led into views of the world which are pretty fantastical. And rather than say, ‘This is a bit wild, let’s try to do something a bit more commonsense-ish,’ they come up with theories that are completely wild.” p.32-33

This excellent article continues on. There is mention of “Three Different Views of Quantum Weirdness (and What It Means)”

A. According to the orthodox view of quantum mechanics, called the Copenhagen interpretation, a system (represented here by a child’s block) does not occupy a dfinite state or location until it is meansured. Before then it is just a blur of overlapping possibilities.

B. The many worlds interpreation insists that the system occupies all its possible states but that every one of them exists in its own alternate universe. Each universe sees one state only, which is why we never observe the block in two sttes at once.

C. In Penrose’s interpreation, gravity holds our reality together. In each potential state, the block generates a separate gravitaional field. Over time, the energy required to mainain these multiple fields cause the block to settle into one state only – the one that we observe. p.g.32

On page 34: " What is consciousness? Penrose argues that it is a by-product of quantum mechanical processes operating in the brain. Some intriguing recent research supports his contention that microtubules—tiny structures in brain cells —can allow quantum phenomena to influence how neurons behave."

Dirk Bouwmeester, a former postdoc under Penrose who is now a professor of physics at the University of California at Santa Barbara has devised a way to test Penrose’s theory. “If Bouwmeester’s experiment succeeds, it will show that the fantasy of being in two places at the same time really is impossible. As a kind of compensation, it will also show that the number of places science can go is far greater than we have come to believe. Most physicists today trying to unite Einstein’s theory of gravity with quantum mechanics focus on microscopic realms beyond the reach of any conceivable experiment. Perhaps the solution that eluded Einstein is much closer at hand, in the strange territory where quantum mechanics just barely emerges into the human world.” p. 34.
I don’t know exactly why I’m drawn to share parts of this article with you. Perhaps you can tell me. One last thought, Mark what happens to the winds on planet Earth when the world revolves around it? Wouldn’t this have a different effect than what we experience ". . . when you see the south wind blow, you say, ‘There will be a scorching heat,’ … "

Please remember I am really trying my best to understand why your belief in Geocentrism is so strongly felt.

Thank you.
 
40.png
trth_skr:
The relative motion comes from an annual precession of the universe on a 23.5 deg. axis (interpreted as the plane of earth’s orbit around the sun in the heliocentric system). See the diagram here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=693469&postcount=67

As far as the forces, gyroscopic systems do precess.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
I do not believe that Gyroscopic precession explains the varried relative motions. It would precess the same everywhere, so no relative motion. But forget that for now, here is the problem:

Gyroscopic systems precess when an outside force is applied to them. They do not precess when no force is applied to them. Again I ask where is the force comming from? Describe it for me.
 
40.png
scm:
I do not believe that Gyroscopic precession explains the varried relative motions. It would precess the same everywhere, so no relative motion.
Actually, not true. Go back to the diagram, here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…69&postcount=67

The sun is close the the earth so this precession causes the sun to move annually around the earth. Note that the distant stars exhibit abberation. Also, there would have to be other precessions to account for other relative motions.
40.png
scm:
But forget that for now, here is the problem:

Gyroscopic systems precess when an outside force is applied to them. They do not precess when no force is applied to them. Again I ask where is the force comming from? Describe it for me.
Precessions can occur due for instance to non-umiform distribution of mass within the universe.

If we take the neo-Tychonian system (same as modern Tychonian, except the rotation of stars are centered on the sun rather than the earth), there could be a torque caused by the moment arm from the earth-solar system rotation and star-sun rotation.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
40.png
ISABUS:
Trth_stk et al, I think that I’m finally beginning to grasp with a more vibrant understanding “why” you along with other people remain creationists. Could it be that it’s difficult for creationists to envision the unseen becoming seen through an evolutionary process? I’m not making fun of you. Honest. It’s just that I’m really trying to figure out why there exists two opposite opinions on this topic.
The reason I hold to a creastionist view is that I take seriously the view of the Church for almost 2000 years. Though there always has been dissension from the Church view, it has really been the last few hundred years where it has gotten significant (within the Church). In recent decades, especially, modernism has come to dominate the world, and the Church itself seems to have fallen prey to it.
40.png
ISABUS:
What you wrote drew me back to an article I recently read in the June issue of Discover magazine, “If An Electron Can Be in 2 Places at Once, Why Can’t YOU?” by Tim Folger. The article is about Sir Roger Penrose.


A. According to the orthodox view of quantum mechanics, called the Copenhagen interpretation, a system (represented here by a child’s block) does not occupy a dfinite state or location until it is meansured. Before then it is just a blur of overlapping possibilities.

B. The many worlds interpreation insists that the system occupies all its possible states but that every one of them exists in its own alternate universe. Each universe sees one state only, which is why we never observe the block in two sttes at once.

C. In Penrose’s interpreation, gravity holds our reality together. In each potential state, the block generates a separate gravitaional field. Over time, the energy required to mainain these multiple fields cause the block to settle into one state only – the one that we observe. p.g.32.
Philosophically, I would tend to consider A or C more than B, myself, but this is just my opinion. How about a hybrid of “C” and “A”? I can imagine a scenario something like:
  1. At any given moment active agents (i.e., humans, angels, God, monads) can branch reality into a number of possibilities given a decision (concious or not) made at the moment. I.e., I can go left or right, straight, or U-turn. I can say “yes”, or “no”, or perhaps, “maybe”…Inactive agents (i.e., a comet a volcano) can also intercede in this process.
  2. Each decision each moment by 5.5-6 billion people plus other active agents, as well as “natural” events can lead to a different reality.
  3. The intersection of the decision made by all active agents (or at least the subset actually making a decision that moment) and natural events at a given moment (“C”) create the reality we experience at that moment (“A”).
40.png
ISABUS:
… Most physicists today trying to unite Einstein’s theory of gravity with quantum mechanics focus on microscopic realms beyond the reach of any conceivable experiment. Perhaps the solution that eluded Einstein is much closer at hand, in the strange territory where quantum mechanics just barely emerges into the human world." p. 34. .
This is a very interesting area. In this field (uniting QM and relativity), we find that many scientists are bringing back the aether; though they do not call it that. They are saying that there is no “vacuum”. Spasce is not empty, but rather contains structure.
40.png
ISABUS:
I don’t know exactly why I’m drawn to share parts of this article with you. Perhaps you can tell me. .
I’m not sure either. It is a decision you made, and had you made a different one, the world would not be the same.😉

Maybe you do have an open mind. Maybe you realize how important philosophy is to science, especially cosmology and QM. Maybe you realize that no one has ever demonstrated that the earth moves.
40.png
ISABUS:
One last thought, Mark what happens to the winds on planet Earth when the world revolves around it? Wouldn’t this have a different effect than what we experience ". . . when you see the south wind blow, you say, ‘There will be a scorching heat,’ … " .
The winds are cauised by disturbances in the atmosphere. These could be caused by rotation of the earth against the universe or by rotation of the universe against the earth. In either case, there will be zero velocity at the surface of the earth (a boundary condition) and a shear at the atmosphere / universe interface. The relative motion of the shear will be the same in either case (heliocentric or geocentric). In between there are forces referred to as inertial forces (i.e., Corliolis for instnace). Both systems exhibit these forces. Interestingly in the rotating earth cases, these are reffered to as “fictitous” forces, since they a result of frame choice. In the relativistic Thirring type scenario, they are real forces.

CONTINUED

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
40.png
ISABUS:
Please remember I am really trying my best to understand why your belief in Geocentrism is so strongly felt.

Thank you .
Isabus:

The field of Geocentrism, though nowhere near as developed as modern cosmology, is realtively solid. What I mean by that is that there is no easy way to discredit it. Observations cannot disporve it. You have seen some of the quotes I shared. Einstein, Max Born, George Ellis. Nothing we can see can disprove it.

Finding a detailed physics to explain it is much more difficult. That is for sure. But when you consider that no one has demonstrated that the earth moves (rotation or translation) coupled with a confidence in the Church (as being guided by the Holy Spirit, now and in the past), you should at least keep an open mind.

Robert Sungenis has answered a lot of challenges, and no one (to my asessment) has come up with a reasonable demonstration proving helio or acentrism or disproving Geocentrism. His book “Galileo Was Wrong” should be out this year. I am certain it will open some minds to this issue.

Just as personal testimony, I have been studying and discussing this for over a year now. Much of it with scientists. Ultimately, when you engage them, the best they can come up with are philosophical arguments against it. See the Ellis quote again.

“People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations,…For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations.” Ellis has published a paper on this. “You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds. In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong in that. What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that.”

Here is a little bio. for Ellis. Note he is not a Geocentrist.

meaning.ca/conference04/presenters/ellis.htm

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
40.png
trth_skr:
This is not true. Location does have signiifcance. The Ark of the Covenant was placed in a very Holy room. It itself was a very Holy object.
No, the Ark or rather what it contained was holy not the place it was in. If the Ark wasn’t there it would all be just so much stone. They could have built the temple on the lot across the street and that would have become the location of the holy of holies.
40.png
trth_skr:
….Jerusaleum is a very Holy city to the extent that the Church fought many crusades to defend it against the infidels. Rome is a very Holy city.
Those places are given the honorific Holy because of the events that transpired there not because of anything special about the place.
I’ve seen anti-catholic site where the author goes through all sorts of gyrations to prove that Peter wasn’t in Rome but they miss the point. Peter didn’t have authority because he went to Rome; he had authority because he was Peter. He could have set up shop anywhere; he chose Rome for practical reasons.
40.png
trth_skr:
The altar is a holier place than the men’s bathroom, etc.,
yes BUT you can build an alter (or a men’s room) anywhere
Once again an alter is holy because of what is done there and not the other way around
40.png
trth_skr:
so I disagree that location is unimportant- at least to Catholics. A lot of protestants have a minimalist attitude that leads to that kind of thinking.

It is very clear from Scripture that we ar at the center of God’s creation.
A lot of Protestants have a literalist attitude that leads to that kind of thinking. 😉
40.png
trth_skr:
Perhaps from a pagan perspective, Geocentrism would not be the most obvious system.
from any non-technical perspective a geocentric (and even flat earth) world view makes perfect sense.
40.png
trth_skr:
But we, as Catholics have unanimous support of the Fathers that Geocentrism is correct.
with all respect to the Fathers (1) they weren’t writing physics texts and (2) they didn’t have telescopes
40.png
trth_skr:
We have the Scriptures, authoritatively interpreted by the Church and Fathers Geocentrically. We have official declarations from three Popes against the notion that the earth moves.
“Eppur si muove” 😉

once again the Scriptures aren’t textbooks and I’m sure those 3 Popes you mention held their office a long time ago

Even during all that Galileo nonsense the Church has made no dogmatic decree on geocentrism
newadvent.org/cathen/06342b.htm
40.png
trth_skr:
We are not just carbonaceous accidents ballistically zinging through an absolute vacuum at the whim, of an unfeeling physics.
I never said that was all we are…but it is an observable, measurable part of what we are

Why would we be any less subject to the whims of physics in space than to the whims of the weather or disease here on earth?

Make up you mind, if we’re fallen and have to live in this world then we have to live in this world and by its rules,.
 
Steve Andersen:
No, the Ark or rather what it contained was holy not the place it was in. If the Ark wasn’t there it would all be just so much stone. They could have built the temple on the lot across the street and that would have become the location of the holy of holies.

Those places are given the honorific Holy because of the events that transpired there not because of anything special about the place.


yes BUT you can build an alter (or a men’s room) anywhere
In the end, they are holy places. I tend not to believe in accidents.
Steve Andersen:
with all respect to the Fathers (1) they weren’t writing physics texts and (2) they didn’t have telescopes
But,
  1. They did know philosophy, and this is a bigger part of it then science;
  2. The telescopes have not changed anything. No one has yet to demonstrate that the earth moves, or Geocentrism is wrong. Observations are not suffucient.
Steve Andersen:
once again the Scriptures aren’t textbooks and I’m sure those 3 Popes you mention held their office a long time ago

Even during all that Galileo nonsense the Church has made no dogmatic decree on geocentrism
newadvent.org/cathen/06342b.htm
This is an opinion. I disagree with it.
Steve Andersen:
I never said that was all we are…but it is an observable, measurable part of what we are

Why would we be any less subject to the whims of physics in space than to the whims of the weather or disease here on earth?

Make up you mind, if we’re fallen and have to live in this world then we have to live in this world and by its rules,.
You are right we are in this world with its rules, etc.

We do not have to hold to all its opinions.

The Church has never made any official statements that we are free from disease, etc., though it did regarding Geocentrism.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top