Given the principles of evolution, natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc, do you think belief in the supernatural will die out or become a m

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Scientists are using this to help the blind see, and since sound uses similar encoding, to help the deaf.

Tell me, what has creationism ever done to help the blind or the deaf? I think nothing, your designer can’t fix the many faults in its poor design. Science can. If your supernatural can’t help the blind see where science can, your supernatural is irrelevant to the human condition.
Creationists have done plenty to help the blind and deaf! Are you without reason? Christians in particular have helped the blind, deaf, lame, widowed, and orphaned for two thousand years. And they’ve done it for free! Out of the goodness of their hearts. Not because they were paid for it, or because it was their job. Okay, some did, some have to, because of their role and the size of their charity, school, mission, whatever. Just as some scientists have done pro bono work in their free time.

How can you distinguish between “scientists” and “scientists”? I mean, I know for a fact there are many Christian scientists. Do you mean the scientists who are Christians refuse to help the blind or deaf? Goodness, what a claim.

What “faults in its poor design” has “science” fixed? Science is not an agent. It cannot “do” anything. Nothing! Let me rephrase that. What “faults in its poor design” have scientists fixed?
Science is knowledge, a process, a field, effected by people. Only people can help the blind and deaf. And people aren’t prevented from helping others by their jobs or beliefs. That is such an ignorant thing to say! Recently, two scientists committed murder. That didn’t help anyone. So “scientists” can do bad things and refrain from doing good things. “Scientists” are not the end all and be all of creation. Being a “scientist” is just another role in a long, long list of roles that people can engage in. Whatever career a person enters doesn’t make them good or bad, nice or mean, smart or stupid. Their actions do that. No field of work has a monopoly on goodness, charity, intelligence, or the advancement of knowledge.
People who study medicine “fix” some things, like broken bones and cancer.
I don’t know anyone who has “fixed” any “faults in [the alleged] poor design” of a human being. Maybe some technicians have improved things - I wear glasses - some people have artificial limbs. You know what “design” means, right? It doesn’t mean each molecule of a person’s body. A “design” is not an infinite set of pictures. A “design” is a pattern. So let’s say there is a pattern for a human. Then humans are born. They fit the pattern. That is sufficient. Atheists have to believe it’s absolutely horrible because for them all there is to life is the physical life, and they so dearly think they deserve to have “perfect” lives (as they define “perfect”). But to people with a broader perspective - yes, even Buddhists, and then also Catholics and Mormons, people who believe there is more to life, to our existence, than our physical body, the limitations (you would call them “faults” I suppose) of their physical bodies are no more than a minor burp, part of life, the comfortable and the uncomfortable. Even death is a part of life. Some people worry too much about being perfect, wasting time they could better put to productive use.
 
The original question included the words “superior form of perception.”
Yes it did, and it also included the words “produced by science”. I answered as best I could within the limits set by the quesiton.
“You are only one God away from atheism. I am tens of thousands of gods away.”
This illustrates a tremendous fallacy! It is a common atheist argument.
I do not know of any atheists who have tens of thousands of Gods in their scriptures. Hindus or Jains, yes, but no atheists.
“The ultimate truth is that there is no Ultimate Truth.”
Very Nagarjuna. I have appreciated Mulamadhyamakakarika.
Congratulations, you are the first to recognise the inspiration for my sig without being prompted. From the Catholic side there is always “Vanity, vanity, all is vanity” or perhaps: “Emptiness, emptiness, all is emptiness.”

rossum
 
We are talking about bones and tendons. Those are biological, not theological. If we are talking about biological objects, then we use biological measures of complexity, not theological measures.
Correct.
Discussions could be so fruitful if Catholics could figure out the difference between the material world and the spiritual world. And then understand that something nasty can happen when the material world crashes into the spiritual world.

By the way, if I disappear because I am too old for the new thing – I will always be grateful for our marvelous discussions of topics ranging from top to bottom during my early years on CAF. I wish you the best. 👍

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Each human person is worthy of profound respect.
 
We are talking about bones and tendons. Those are biological, not theological. If we are talking about biological objects, then we use biological measures of complexity, not theological measures.
I’m pretty sure I was addressing a statement that God is “complex”. If not I misread whoever posted it.
The ID movement disagrees. ID is an attempt to remove an explicit God form the origin of life. God cannot, by law, be taught in science lessons in US public schools. ID is a politically motivated attempt to dress God in a lab coat and rename Him “the Intelligent Designer”.
You do not know what you are talking about. You obviously are not qualified to speak for the ID movement.

Yours is a claim made by the ignorant and by the dishonest. ID is not politically motivated. If you can show me from history that such is the case, I would have no problem accepting it. History shows that it is evolutionists who politicized science and the teaching of science. I know too many ID advocates, and have read too many ID articles and books to fall for the lie.

Many ID and Third Way advocates are self-subscribed atheists, (e.g., Bradley Monton, who wrote Seeking God in Science: An Atheist Defends Intelligent Design). Of course, it makes sense to call God “the Intelligent Designer.” But that is irrelevant! “ID” does not do that. Some people who subscribe to ID do it, but that is there personal choice, not the stance of the Intelligent Design movement. The ID movement welcomes people regardless of their beliefs – Christian, Deist, Muslim, agnostic, atheist. So it has a broader range of views and opinions to draw from then does outdated materialism.

It also makes sense to call Nature, aliens, a pantheon of gods, and as some atheists have attempted (less sensibly) ‘chance’ - “the Intelligent Designer.” I have found that most people saying that ID is religion are almost completely ignorant of Intelligent Design science as defined, as performed, as written about, and as advocated by those who either accept it whole-heartedly or who accept it in part.

Most Intelligent Design advocates (the exceptions being, so far as I am aware, devout, courageous theists) are not concerned, in their ID research and writing, what or who or whatever the Intelligent Designer is. Some do not even believe there is an Intelligent Designer. If critics knew one-tenth as much as they think they do about ID, they would realize that some ID advocates do not believe there is an Intelligent Designer. They only acknowledge that living cells and processes are evidence of some sort of discernment taking place within those cells and processes. That discernment, they believe, might be in the DNA, epigenetics, or somewhere they haven’t found yet. To label all ID advocates as politically motivated and trying to dress God up in a lab coat is worse than a lie. ID advocates are used to it. As their numbers grow, the slander becomes more shrill, and the public and “the scientific community” tired of it.
The Encyclopaedia Britannica is large and very complex. God is omniscient and therefore knows everything, and more, that is in the Encyclopaedia. That gives us a measurable lower bound for the complexity of God.
Again you show your ignorance on what “simple” and “complex” mean in theology.
God’s “knowledge” is not broken up into pieces, isn’t on individual pages in distinct volumes of molecule-filled books. You can only measure what is in parts. God is not in parts, and God is not complex. Is God the universe, do you think? Then he might be “complex” for you when you think about him. Or is God transcendent in relation to the universe? Then he may or may not be complex. (Logically, he must be simple, not complex; he must be singular, not partitioned.) So if God is not the universe, is God all the facts in the universe? Or does God merely ‘see’ the facts? Does God embrace the knowledge in a ‘singularity’ as it were? Is it possible that when God knows a thing, that knowledge is not a separate piece of God but becomes one with God?

“Neither the aggregates, nor different from the aggregates,
The aggregates are not in him, nor is he in the aggregates.”
 
I have on my book shelf the interesting book "Science & Human Origins"

From chapter 5, page 106
“Now, I am a scientist, and not a theologian, but I feel obligated to speak. The challenge being posed to two first parents is a scientific one, so it deserves a scientific response.”
 
You accept other scientific theories, why would you discriminate against the theory of evolution? Perhaps it is you who has bought into the propaganda that science is at war with Christianity.
What an incredibly anti-science, illogical, and dangerous statement!

What is science if not discrimination!? Discriminate between species, cells, processes, ad infinitum. Why discriminate? How can a person ask such a question! We “discriminate” in order to distinguish truth from falsehood, construction from destruction, and so on. There are so many theories. I have a thick dictionary of theories. Why discriminate against the theory of evolution? Why not just accept it, along with the theory of spontaneous generation, the miasma theory of disease, the scientific theory of phlogiston, the geocentric theory of the universe, the hollow earth theory, Marx’ theory of dialectical materialism, and all the theories of alchemy, and so on. I’m actually quite partial to the expanding earth theory and Fomenko’s New Chronology theory. If one accepts “other scientific theories,” then why would one discriminate against these?
 
What an incredibly anti-science, illogical, and dangerous statement!

What is science if not discrimination!? Discriminate between species, cells, processes, ad infinitum. Why discriminate? How can a person ask such a question! We “discriminate” in order to distinguish truth from falsehood, construction from destruction, and so on. There are so many theories. I have a thick dictionary of theories. Why discriminate against the theory of evolution? Why not just accept it, along with the theory of spontaneous generation, the miasma theory of disease, the scientific theory of phlogiston, the geocentric theory of the universe, the hollow earth theory, Marx’ theory of dialectical materialism, and all the theories of alchemy, and so on. I’m actually quite partial to the expanding earth theory and Fomenko’s New Chronology theory. If one accepts “other scientific theories,” then why would one discriminate against these?
I was talking about accepted scientific theories. You know, peer-review.

Of course theories can get updated. But we don’t see Christians getting upset about general relativity. But we do see Christians treating the theory of evolution as if its some kind of political agenda to undermine the influence of Christianity. In other-words the reason they discriminate against it has nothing to do with a lack of evidence and everything to do with the paranoid fear that science is undermining their faith.

So this accusation of me being Anti-Science is a Joke.
 
I guess it is now 97.3% of CAF participants who are not familiar with all that is required when one uses the Science of Human Evolution.:banghead:
 
I have on my book shelf the interesting book "Science & Human Origins"

From chapter 5, page 106
“Now, I am a scientist, and not a theologian, but I feel obligated to speak. The challenge being posed to two first parents is a scientific one, so it deserves a scientific response.”
Materialism-centered “science” can investigate the details surrounding the appearance and lives of two first parents, but it cannot alone address the details surrounding the motivation for, purpose of, or value of those two first parents.
 
I was talking about accepted scientific theories. You know, peer-review.
Those theories were accepted by many, some by everyone. At least some have been peer-reviewed. Peer review means little.

Is Peer-review a requirement of good science?:
ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1516
The peer review scam:
nature.com/news/publishing-the-peer-review-scam-1.16400
a site to follow to keep up to date with (some) peer-reviewed articles that have to be retracted for improper research, miscalculations, dishonesty, etc.

Researchers and writers in various fields of technology (“science”) like money the same as everyone else, and like praise and admiration. They are not always honest in how they go about getting it. Even when they are honest, they make mistakes. Their reviewers are the same. They are first and foremost people, and after that they are fallible human technicians in narrow fields of study.
 
Materialism-centered “science” can investigate the details surrounding the appearance and lives of two first parents, but it cannot alone address the details surrounding the motivation for, purpose of, or value of those two first parents.
Interestingly, natural science cannot investigate the details surrounding the appearance and lives of two first parents because current natural science cannot examine every location on planet earth going millions of years backwards. 🙂

It is our dear first three chapters of Genesis which gives us the details. 🙂
 
You should look up the word omnipotent.

As ‘enry ‘iggins might have said: ‘He’s got it. By George, he’s got it!’
Considering that I may disappear as I try to figure out …

You have my best wishes.
granny
 
Interestingly, natural science cannot investigate the details surrounding the appearance and lives of two first parents because current natural science cannot examine every location on planet earth going millions of years backwards. 🙂

It is our dear first three chapters of Genesis which gives us the details. 🙂
Bingo. 🙂
 
Maybe God was busy doing more important things (Tarquin)
.
You should look up the word omnipotent.
You should look up the word “naive.” Dictionary definitions are not suitable for theological debate, except as a starting point. The subjects of philosophy - and of theology - are much deeper than a few lines in a dictionary.
…So He “let nature take its course.” (Tarquin)
As ‘enry ‘iggins might have said: ‘He’s got it. By George, he’s got it!’
You seem to think I was using “Nature” in the sense of godless nature, or as distinct from and in opposition to God. I was not.
plato.stanford.edu/entries/omnipotence/
 
Baptists don’t have a creed or catechism, our foundational principle is each person should follow her own conscience in matters of belief. If she ends up a Baptist, fine, if not then that’s also fine, it’s between her and God.

From what I can see, all Catholic universities and schools teach evolution, and don’t teach young earth/old earth/etc creationism. If that’s true then everyone with a Catholic education is taught evolution and is not taught young earth/old earth/etc creationism. Which implies that wherever young earth/old earth/etc creationists got their creationism, it wasn’t from a Catholic education.
You may be right. On the other hand, most Baptists are Creationists. Maybe we should switch religions! 🙂
 
Considering that the belief in the supernatural has existed since the ancient peoples transmitted their legends – I doubt that there is anything powerful enough to erase the message of those legends.

When one is wearing a thinking cap, one can spot that natural selection, survival of the fittest and the etc., is obviously grounded in the material world. Common sense should point out that the material world is not equal to the spiritual world
👍
 
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