God created evil

[ventura2323]

Your last comment was ‘have you been put to sleep or what?’ which is what we term an ‘ad-hominem’ which means ‘to the person’. That is by definition a personal attack and violates all the principles of a rational debate, it makes your argument logically fallacious (flawed) and demonstrates a lack of decorum. When you are evaluating a Philosophical argument; attack its premises and content and not the person making it.

First of all: Satan by nature is good, this is by virtue of the fact that he exists. Anything that exists has the source of its existence in God, that means everything by the sheer fact of its existence is Good. Notice I am not using ‘Good’ in the ethical sense, but in the ontological sense- as in the nature of Being or existence. Therefore Satan is not a pure evil by the sheer fact of his existence- his most inherent nature is still Good. He has just freely chosen to act contrary to the Will of God therefore making his actions a total ‘privation of Good’ but this doesn’t mean evil has a metaphysical existence.

If Evil had a metaphysical existence, that would mean that the nature of existence itself is not Good, and therefore our conception of God is conceptually false as it is inherently contradictory. I am not the source of this argument, I am paraphrasing Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologica

Since you say that satan is good, how would you like to spend eternity with him?
I have no idea where you are coming from.

 

[Skeptic92]

Since you say that satan is good, how would you like to spend eternity with him?
I have no idea where you are coming from.

It isn’t Satan per se that is the cause of torment, but being in the same state of being as Satan: before God stained with imperfection.

I am coming from the view as a Philosopher and a Theologian, what you are stipulating is inherently absurd and causes logical contradiction and incoherence. To assert the Christian framework evil can not have a metaphysical existence without inherent contradiction: you either get rid of the existence of God or you get rid of the metaphysical existence of evil. They are mutually exclusive premises, for one to be true the other must be false.

 

[ventura2323]

It isn’t Satan per se that is the cause of torment, but being in the same state of being as Satan: before God stained with imperfection.

I am coming from the view as a Philosopher and a Theologian, what you are stipulating is inherently absurd and causes logical contradiction and incoherence. To assert the Christian framework evil can not have a metaphysical existence without inherent contradiction: you either get rid of the existence of God or you get rid of the metaphysical existence of evil. They are mutually exclusive premises, for one to be true the other must be false.

We will never agree so let’s call it quits.

 

[Tomkins10]

Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things. Isaiah 45:7 (Young’s literal translation)

Not sure if this has been covered in this thread. Too many posts to go through to check it.

Most other translations use the word ‘disaster’ instead of ‘evil’. However, whichever way you look at it, it sucks.

For eg, if God created the Tsunami (disaster) then is it not an evil thing to do?

If all this has already been covered please let me know.

Tom

 

[tonyrey]

Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things. Isaiah 45:7 (Young’s literal translation)

Not sure if this has been covered in this thread. Too many posts to go through to check it.

Most other translations use the word ‘disaster’ instead of ‘evil’. However, whichever way you look at it, it sucks.

For eg, if God created the Tsunami (disaster) then is it not an evil thing to do?

If all this has already been covered please let me know.

Tom

Welcome to the forum, Tom.

God did not create disasters. They are the result of natural laws which cannot cater for every contingency. They are permitted by God because they are inevitable in an immensely complex universe. They are a lesser evil than not creating life at all.

 

[Counterpoint]

God created evil

Evil is the privation of good (privatio boni). It is only because we cannot see the big picture that we think there is no value in suffering.

“God allows evil to happen in order to bring a greater good therefrom.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

 

[tonyrey]

Evil is the privation of good (privatio boni). It is only because we cannot see the big picture that we think there is no value in suffering.

“God allows evil to happen in order to bring a greater good therefrom.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

Bravo!

 

[Tomkins10]

Thanks for the welcome, Tonyrey

God did not create disasters. They are the result of natural laws which cannot cater for every contingency. They are permitted by God because they are inevitable in an immensely complex universe. They are a lesser evil than not creating life at all.

How do you explain Isiah 45:7 then ??

 

[DanAl]

1. God has omniscience
2. God is cognitively open to free will (since otherwise couldn’t create a being with free will)
3. God knows the decision we perform in a situation as a result being cognitively open to free will and situation, in another word God is cognitively open to creation
4. Creation was performed by first cause and God was cognitively open to first cause
5. Evil exist and God was aware the source of evil in first cause since it was cognitively open to it
6. God created evil

So God created evil, what of it?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

1. God has omniscience
2. God is cognitively open to free will (since otherwise couldn’t create a being with free will)
3. God knows the decision we perform in a situation as a result being cognitively open to free will and situation, in another word God is cognitively open to creation
4. Creation was performed by first cause and God was cognitively open to first cause
5. Evil exist and God was aware the source of evil in first cause since it was cognitively open to it
6. God created evil

Conclusion, Bahman is making up his own philosophy, redefining terms. If you or anyone else is redefining terms than you are arguing with a straw man. Christianity has always defined evil as the absence of a good which should be there. So who are you arguing against? It certainly isn’t God. God knows what he is about, it is you who don’t know.

Satan was created good. But he fell short of the mark. That is the same reason people try to fit God into their own little box by playing silly little games like this.

Linus2nd.

 

[jbinueza]

did God create hell?
i wish to know answers to this common atheist question.
thanks,

 

[fhansen]

did God create hell?
i wish to know answers to this common atheist question.
thanks,

Heaven is the state of being in the presence of God; hell is the state of separation from God. We choose which state we prefer.

 

[Bahman]

So God created evil, what of it?

That is a contradiction since a perfect being cannot create evil!

 

[Bahman]

Conclusion, Bahman is making up his own philosophy, redefining terms. If you or anyone else is redefining terms than you are arguing with a straw man. Christianity has always defined evil as the absence of a good which should be there. So who are you arguing against? It certainly isn’t God. God knows what he is about, it is you who don’t know.

Satan was created good. But he fell short of the mark. That is the same reason people try to fit God into their own little box by playing silly little games like this.

Linus2nd.

Sorry for late reply dude

1. God has omniscience
2. God stated that creation is good
3. Creation has to stay good unless (1) or (2) is wrong
4. No one can perform evil action because of (3)
5. Evil action exist hence (1) or (2) is wrong

 

[davidv]

Sorry for late reply dude

1. God has omniscience
2. God stated that creation is good
3. Creation has to stay good unless (1) or (2) is wrong
4. No one can perform evil action because of (3)
5. Evil action exist hence (1) or (2) is wrong

1. is false therefore your conclusion is invalid.

 

[DanAl]

That is a contradiction since a perfect being cannot create evil!

I fail to see why this a contradiction: behind the assumption that God cannot create evil lies another premise, namely, that God is morally obligated to act a given way, but wouldn’t this be repugnant to the notion that he is perfect? I mean, he must submit to some standard external to or more fundamental than himself when one speaks that God is morally obligated to do something.

Notice that when I say that God created evil I am not speaking that evil is some kind of substance: evil is not something with shape, volume, temperature or atomic number. They are abstractions about something that should be there but is not there. My falling into a deep hole is an evil, but, the evil itself is not something. It is the absence of of something, a hard surface in this case.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Sorry for late reply dude

1. God has omniscience
2. God stated that creation is good
3. Creation has to stay good unless (1) or (2) is wrong
4. No one can perform evil action because of (3)
5. Evil action exist hence (1) or (2) is wrong

St. Thomas proved through reasonable argument that God does not create evil. His reasoning was two fold. First God is good by essence, so cannot do evil even theoretically. Therefore he causes only good to be created.

Secondly, all beings are good as far as they exist. Evil is not a being, it is the absence of what should be there. Evil is the absence of good. Therefore God does not create or cause evil.

Finally, the Catholic Church teaches as Dogma, based on Revealed Truth, that God does not create or cause evil.

The fact that you do not accept this does not mean it is not true. It is true whether or not you accept it.

Linus2nd

 

[josh987654321]

Sorry for late reply dude

1. God has omniscience
2. God stated that creation is good
3. Creation has to stay good unless (1) or (2) is wrong
4. No one can perform evil action because of (3)
5. Evil action exist hence (1) or (2) is wrong

Where does ‘free will’ enter your equation?

St. Thomas proved through reasonable argument that God does not create evil. His reasoning was two fold. First God is good by essence, so cannot do evil even theoretically. Therefore he causes only good to be created.

Secondly, all beings are good as far as they exist. Evil is not a being, it is the absence of what should be there. Evil is the absence of good. Therefore God does not create or cause evil.

Finally, the Catholic Church teaches as Dogma, based on Revealed Truth, that God does not create or cause evil.

The fact that you do not accept this does not mean it is not true. It is true whether or not you accept it.

Linus2nd

Barber story for the existance of God:

Does God exist?

A man went to a barber shop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects.

When they eventually touched on the subject of a God, the barber said:
“I don’t believe that God exists.”

Why do you say that?" asked the customer.

“Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn’t exist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can’t imagine a loving God who allow all of these things”

The customer thought for a moment, but didn’t respond because he did not want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop. Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with dirty long hair and an untrimmed beard.

The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: “You know what? Barbers do not exist.”

“How can you say that?” asked the barber. “I am here, and I am a barber, and I just worked on you”

“No!” the customer exclaimed. “Barbers don’t exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.”

“Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens is, people do not come to me.”

“Exactly!” - affirmed the customer “That’s the point! God, too, DOES exist!
what happens, is people don’t go to Him and do not look for Him, That’s why there’s so much pain and suffering in the world.”

Absence of Good:

The professor of a university challenged his students with this question. “Did God create everything that exists?” A student answered bravely, “Yes, he did”.

The professor then asked, "If God created everything, then he created evil. Since evil exists (as noticed by our own actions), so God is evil. The student couldn’t respond to that statement causing the professor to conclude that he had “proved” that “belief in God” was a fairy tale, and therefore worthless.

Another student raised his hand and asked the professor, "May I pose a question? " “Of course” answered the professor.

The young student stood up and asked : “Professor does Cold exists?”

The professor answered, “What kind of question is that? …Of course the cold exists… haven’t you ever been cold?”

The young student answered, “In fact sir, Cold does not exist. According to the laws of Physics, what we consider cold, in fact is the absence of heat. Anything is able to be studied as long as it transmits energy (heat). Absolute Zero is the total absence of heat, but cold does not exist. What we have done is create a term to describe how we feel if we don’t have body heat or we are not hot.”

“And, does Dark exist?”, he continued. The professor answered “Of course”. This time the student responded, “Again you’re wrong, Sir. Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in fact simply the absence of light. Light can be studied, darkness cannot. Darkness cannot be broken down. A simple ray of light tears the darkness and illuminates the surface where the light beam finishes. Dark is a term that we humans have created to describe what happens when there’s lack of light.”

Finally, the student asked the professor, “Sir, does evil exist?” The professor replied, “Of course it exists, as I mentioned at the beginning, we see violations, crimes and violence anywhere in the world, and those things are evil.”

The student responded, “Sir, Evil does not exist. Just as in the previous cases, Evil is a term which man has created to describe the result of the absence of God’s presence in the hearts of man.”

After this, the professor bowed down his head, and didn’t answer back.

The young man’s name was Albert Einstein.

Please continue to next post -

 

[josh987654321]

Continued from above post -
Paraphrased from C.S. Lewis' book 'Mere Christianity':

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, is the existence of Satan in accordance with his will? If it is, he is a strange God, you will say: and if it is not, how can anything happen contrary to the will of a being with absolute power? But anyone who has been in authority knows how a thing can be in accordance with your will in one way and not in another. You make a thing voluntary and than half the people do not do it. That is not what you willed, but your will has made it possible. It’s the same in the universe. God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot.

If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata-of creatures that worked like machines-would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for his higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they must be free.

Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth it. Perhaps we feel inclined to disagree with him. But there is a difficulty about disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes; you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream could rise higher than its own source. When you are arguing against him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on. If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will-that is, for making a live world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings-then we may take it it is worth paying.

Hope this helps,

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

I believe those who question a loving God due to the reality of evil have forgotten Jesus’ Cross.

Can faithless, rebellious, atheistic, unbelieving men and women possibly say that Jesus Sacrifice at the hands of His executioners was not true, so that they could unleash their rage against Him?

No one can possibly deny it and prove their denial. You, whoever you are who read these lines, do you believe that Jesus died for you? And why do you believe that He did so? no one dies for anyone who is not intensely loved.

I would like to share with you all these short books on Jesus’ passion, as they have given me many answers, brought me closer to Christ and deepened me in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in enourmous ways.

They all contain the Roman Catholic IMRIMATUR which assures the reader that nothing therein is contrary to Catholic morals, faith or teaching, for further information regarding them plese read this youshallbelieve.com/A-plea-to-humanity.pdf and go here youshallbelieve.com/home-2/watch-amazing-video/

Books on the Passion
The Stations of The Cross - loveandmercy.org/Eng-SOC-Reg.pdf
From Sinai to Calvary - loveandmercy.org/Eng-FSC-Reg.pdf
The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf
I Have Given My Life for You - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IHG-Reg.pdf

Jesus did not die on the Cross, and go through a thousand tortures to populate Hell with souls, but rather, to populate Heaven with chosen ones.

Thank you for reading
Josh