God knows what will happen in the future, correct?

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Bahman said:
You are not making an argument. Our situation is very clear and we can easily imagine the situation. The concept of timeless God is illogical.
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I have made many arguments (see above).

And -No- the fact that God is outside of time is completely logical.

Quite logical for God is Logos …

You keep side stepping the argument that I have been making repeatedly - that you are approaching the question incorrectly -you imagining not God but yourself as God - or God as if God were a creature and a creature within time. And imagining that God knows creation the way we do. As if God were you or me. God is God not a creature.

You cannot discuss mathematics by thinking blue + 2 = green. Or the art of Monet as if they were astrophysics.
 
Bookcat said:
I have made many arguments (see above).

And -No- the fact that God is outside of time is completely logical.

Quite logical for God is Logos …

You keep side stepping the argument that I have been making repeatedly - that you are approaching the question incorrectly -you imagining not God but yourself as God - or God as if God were a creature and a creature within time. And imagining that God knows creation the way we do. As if God were you or me. God is God not a creature.

You cannot discuss mathematics by thinking blue + 2 = green. Or the art of Monet as if they were astrophysics.
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  1. God is changeless
  2. God sees everything
  3. From (1) and (2) we can deduce that what God sees is changeless
  4. God creates
  5. This requires a change in what God sees otherwise the act creation is meaningless
  6. Hence we have to give up (2) or (4)
Which one do you pick up?
 
Bahman said:
The problem is where does the omniscience come from? You can strive on timeless picture to argue that God sees the future events in his eternal now but we are faced with two problems that you constantly ignore: 1) How the act creation can be performed in timeless pictures?, 2) How God could knows our decisions assuming that he present in all times? The second question is valid since being present to future just resolve half of the problem about God’s knowledge. The part which is unresolved is that how God could have access to our minds at the moment we make decision?
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Again your thinking of God as a human person. God is not a human person doing things in time…
  1. Creation is ex nihil. Out of nothing. Creation and time happen together - time is part of creation.
One cannot “imagine” as one were God. Anymore than an Ant can imagine as a person. We have not frame of reference.
  1. God knows all that is created. We cannot even make a decision without God. Not one thought - not one breath - not one step. Our minds exist only by God - every atom -every nerve cell exists and is known fully by God. Every atom and our soul is all created - and held in existence by God. I can do nothing without God. And God knows all that I think or do. Coming for freshly in freedom.* God does not know as if God were just watching*.
God does not know as we know. God knows as God.
 
Bahman said:
The problem is where does the omniscience come from? You can strive on timeless picture to argue that God sees the future events in his eternal now but we are faced with two problems that you constantly ignore: 1) How the act creation can be performed in timeless pictures?, 2) How God could knows our decisions assuming that he present in all times? The second question is valid since being present to future just resolve half of the problem about God’s knowledge. The part which is unresolved is that how God could have access to our minds at the moment we make decision?
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Again your thinking of God as a human person. God is not a human person doing things in time…
  1. Creation is ex nihil. Out of nothing. Creation and time happen together - time is part of creation.
One cannot “imagine” as if one were God. Anymore than an Ant can imagine as a person. We have not frame of reference.
  1. God knows all that is created. We cannot even make a decision without God. Not one thought - not one breath - not one step. Our minds exist only by God - every atom -every nerve cell exists and is known fully by God. Every atom and our soul is all created - and held in existence by God. I can do nothing without God. And God knows all that I think or do. Coming for freshly in freedom.* God does not know as if God were just watching*.
God does not know as we know. God knows as God.*

If you continue to try to think of God as if God were not God but some creature - you will keep asking the same questions.
 
Bookcat said:
Again your thinking of God as a human person. God is not a human person doing things in time…
  1. Creation is ex nihil. Out of nothing. Creation and time happen together - time is part of creation.
One cannot “imagine” as one were God. Anymore than an Ant can imagine as a person. We have not frame of reference.
  1. God knows all that is created. We cannot even make a decision without God. Not one thought - not one breath - not one step. Our minds exist only by God - every atom -every nerve cell exists and is known fully by God. Every atom and our soul is all created - and held in existence by God. I can do nothing without God. And God knows all that I think or do. Coming for freshly in freedom.* God does not know as if God were just watching*.
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Time cannot be part of creation. Why? Because the very act of creation is defined as creating something out of nothing which means that there exist a before and after of creation act. You need time for any act, simple.
 
Bahman said:
Time cannot be part of creation. Why? Because the very act of creation is defined as creating something out of nothing which means that there exist a before and after of creation act. You need time for any act, simple.
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No.

Again your thinking of God as if God were a creature. And within time creating.

It does not seem that your taking much time to read my responses really.

Your just quickly returning to your same questions.

“Take more time”.
 
Bookcat said:
No.

Again your thinking of God as if God were a creature. And within time creating.

It does not seem that your taking much time to read my responses really.

Your just quickly returning to your same questions.

“Take more time”.
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I have been through this longer than you were. The only way to remove the conflict is to assume that God existence, God’s knowledge and act creation lays at the same point. This however is contradictory to what bible says and it questions ephemeral creation.
 
Bahman said:
I read them and I know what you mean.
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Good.

Once one begins to realize that God must be thought about as God not as a creature…not as some creature acting in time.

…that God does not know the why we know. God knows as God.

Then things can be clearer…

With time.
 
Bahman said:
The only way to remove the conflict is to assume that God existence, God’s knowledge and act creation lays at the same point.
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No it is not…for God is not a creature in time but is God.

God does not know as we know. God knows as God (quite different).
 
Bahman said:
I said same point, not the same time.
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God IS.

Creation came to be ex nihil-out of nothing *

Not ‘same point’.

Creation is not eternal. It had a beginning.

It is not self-subsistent.

*(and in so doing so did time).
 
Bookcat said:
God IS.

Creation came to be ex nihil-out of nothing *

Not ‘same point’.

Creation is not eternal. It had a beginning.

It is not self-subsistent.

*(and in so doing so did time).
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God creates. “God is” is meaningless since it doesn’t provide a good definition of God since I can also say that “I am”.
 
Bahman said:
God creates. “God is” is meaningless since it doesn’t provide a good definition of God since I can also say that “I am”.
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God is not defined simply by the work of creation. God did not need to create.

“God IS” can point to God saying “I AM”.

Again your seeking to talk about God as if God were not God.
 
Bookcat said:
God is not defined simply by the work of creation. God did not need to create.

“God IS” can mean the same as “I AM”.

Again your seeking to talk about God as if God were not God.
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Oh well, “God has ability to create instead” of “God creates”.
 
Bookcat said:
Again God did not need to create.

God IS.
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I didn’t say that God needs to create. Please reread again. “God is” is not a good definition. I can also say that “I am”. This is universal property any being share in common.
 
Bahman said:
God creates. “God is” is meaningless since it doesn’t provide a good definition of God since I can also say that “I am”.
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Yes, you can say “I am”.
Was there ever a tme when you were not?
 
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