God knows what will happen in the future, correct?

[balto]

You need to elaborate how a changeless God could create something else?

If what you are asking is “can God create something, then create something else” then the answer is no, He cannot do that because He is unchanging. But it is logically possible that God could have eternally sustained a different universe. This universe is only necessary by supposition: supposing God freely decides to create it, it is necessary that He create it. But it is not necessary absolutely because God could freely have created a different universe.

There is no tension between having a fate and free will. We just need to choose and do what we are supposed to do. Having fate however attaches a certain element of reality to each person that s/he cannot escape it.

Well it seems meaningless to speak of “escaping anything” because there is nothing to escape. What I do in the future is not constraining my actions now. What I freely do in the future is not real right now so there is no backwards causality happening. Hence I am free.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Before He creates an individual does He know if He will eventually be casting the person into the lake of fire?

The mystery goes something like this:
There is no before or after for God who creates time.
We are temporal beings who create our fate in time through our actions.
As Creator and Father, he brings us into existence and guides us that we may be loving persons.
He “contains” not only the fullness of time, but is beyond it.
As we decide, He knows it in all time.
You have an idea of what time is. God is not an element in time; He transcends it. This is just the way it is - a truth around which many other things make sense.

 

[Bahman]

If what you are asking is “can God create something, then create something else” then the answer is no, He cannot do that because He is unchanging.

Ok. That is what I wanted to hear.

But it is logically possible that God could have eternally sustained a different universe. This universe is only necessary by supposition: supposing God freely decides to create it, it is necessary that He create it. But it is not necessary absolutely because God could freely have created a different universe.

That is all cool. Suppose that God have two options in his disposal, A and B, each being different creation. What differentiate A from B? The content. Isn’t it?

Well it seems meaningless to speak of “escaping anything” because there is nothing to escape. What I do in the future is not constraining my actions now. What I freely do in the future is not real right now so there is no backwards causality happening. Hence I am free.

The content of creation is fixed considering the last comment. Hence future is fixed. Hence there is a inescapable fate for each individual.

 

[balto]

That is all cool. Suppose that God have two options in his disposal, A and B, each being different creation. What differentiate A from B? The content. Isn’t it?

Sure, the content of A and B are different, and possibly the fact that God decided to make one of them actual, so one has existence and the other doesn’t. But that is not necessary since God could opt to create neither of them.

The content of creation is fixed considering the last comment. Hence future is fixed. Hence there is a inescapable fate for each individual.

To say that the “content of creation is fixed” is only saying that the world that God created is all that there is. Yet God created a world with free agents in it so part of the reason it has the content it does is because part of the content is freely determined.

Your use of the word “fate” is ambiguous, which is why I attempted to draw a distinction between two understandings of fate in post 39. We still don’t know what you mean by “fate.” If you mean “what ever happens to be the future” then that is not inconsistent with free will. If you mean “the future is necessary” then you are begging the question against the free will defender by simply assuming that it is impossible for anything to happen freely.

 

[Bahman]

Sure, the content of A and B are different, and possibly the fact that God decided to make one of them actual, so one has existence and the other doesn’t. But that is not necessary since God could opt to create neither of them.

I am not sure about whether creating neither of them is possible. You are left with one option either to chose A or B, once it is chosen then God has to perform creation since God doesn’t have any other option in timeless state, for example God cannot think of whether he create or do not create to chosen creation. God can only choose to create or not to create if he has only one option.

To say that the “content of creation is fixed” is only saying that the world that God created is all that there is. Yet God created a world with free agents in it so part of the reason it has the content it does is because part of the content is freely determined.

Including future since God in your system of belief has to sustain the creation as well. Hence future which somehow contains the knowledge of each individual’s act must be there. Lets assume that God somehow strangely knows the act of each individual. This is basically content of creation.

Your use of the word “fate” is ambiguous, which is why I attempted to draw a distinction between two understandings of fate in post 39. We still don’t know what you mean by “fate.” If you mean “what ever happens to be the future” then that is not inconsistent with free will. If you mean “the future is necessary” then you are begging the question against the free will defender by simply assuming that it is impossible for anything to happen freely.

By fate I mean the existence of the future. It has nothing against free will but tells about a grand coincidence that what we do is a part our fates.

 

[Aloysium]

I was checking the forums when I got home and noticed there’s

an angry icon next to the Title of my post above.

It’s happened before, and now again when I post on my (not-so)smart phone.

It’s not me; really, it’s the phone.

Everything goes haywire as I try to type in, review, preview and edit my post.

Sorry.

While I wrote trying to make a serious point, I imagine, my guardian angel had a chuckle.

God was there with me as I posted, as He is with me now. Then as now, in time; then as now, eternal - One.

 

[balto]

I am not sure about whether creating neither of them is possible. You are left with one option either to chose A or B, once it is chosen then God has to perform creation since God doesn’t have any other option in timeless state, for example God cannot think of whether he create or do not create to chosen creation. God can only choose to create or not to create if he has only one option.

I don’t see how that is the case. If God can create A or B, then He can create A, B, or neither. He has reasons for creating A or B or nothing, but He does not have to “think about it” because He doesn’t reason from premises to conclusions. His reasons are eternally actual.

Including future since God in your system of belief has to sustain the creation as well. Hence future which somehow contains the knowledge of each individual’s act must be there. Lets assume that God somehow strangely knows the act of each individual. This is basically content of creation.

Yes, but He knows it as a free act. God’s knowing it as a free act does not make it unfree. At t1 I freely do X, at t2 I freely do Y, God knows both because He is present to both, yet it is false to say that Y is somehow necessarily present in some way at t1 which is what you would need for fatalism.

By fate I mean the existence of the future. It has nothing against free will but tells about a grand coincidence that what we do is a part our fates.

Yes, but part of your fate includes free actions.

 

[Partinobodycula]

I don’t change it, I create it.

Does this not make you an uncaused cause?

If that which you choose to create, is chosen of your own free will, and not caused by anything else, then are you not an uncaused cause?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . are you not an uncaused cause?

This stuff is very simple. The mystery lies in the Spirit of God.

Gen 2: 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

 

[Partinobodycula]

This stuff is very simple. The mystery lies in the Spirit of God.

I’m sorry, you’ve misunderstood the question. This is probably due in large part to the fact that the word “cause” has a number of connotations. When I say that free will implies that I’m an uncaused cause, I don’t mean that my existence is uncaused. I mean that my choices are uncaused, therefore I’m the uncaused cause of those choices.

I make the choices, but nothing causes me to make those choices. There are no preceding causes, therefore I’m the uncaused cause.

 

[tonyrey]

Does this not make you an uncaused cause?

If that which you choose to create, is chosen of your own free will, and not caused by anything else, then are you not an uncaused cause?

To think otherwise is to deny the power of the Creator - and raises the question of how your power to deny the power of the Creator originated…

 

[Bahman]

I don’t see how that is the case. If God can create A or B, then He can create A, B, or neither. He has reasons for creating A or B or nothing, but He does not have to “think about it” because He doesn’t reason from premises to conclusions. His reasons are eternally actual.

One need to decide between only two options at a time.

Yes, but He knows it as a free act. God’s knowing it as a free act does not make it unfree. At t1 I freely do X, at t2 I freely do Y, God knows both because He is present to both, yet it is false to say that Y is somehow necessarily present in some way at t1 which is what you would need for fatalism.

We are in the same page.

Yes, but part of your fate includes free actions.

The point is to accept that our actions are tighten future or our fate, in another word the very act of creation. The point is whether God could create another universe that individuals have different actions?

 

[Bahman]

I’m sorry, you’ve misunderstood the question. This is probably due in large part to the fact that the word “cause” has a number of connotations. When I say that free will implies that I’m an uncaused cause, I don’t mean that my existence is uncaused. I mean that my choices are uncaused, therefore I’m the uncaused cause of those choices.

I make the choices, but nothing causes me to make those choices. There are no preceding causes, therefore I’m the uncaused cause.

You are very correct in your observation. But how a caused thing can do uncaused cause?

 

[onenow1]

I don’t think if that is quite simple. So you are basically arguing that giving the circumstances in a situation God can know our decisions. This means that circumstances define the decision hence we are not free.

No not at all; for instance who crosses a street without looking ? these are decisions we must make this indeed is free will. Can He make a decision for us ? Of course He is God.

God Bless

 

[Bahman]

No not at all; for instance who crosses a street without looking ? these are decisions we must make this indeed is free will. Can He make a decision for us ? Of course He is God.

God Bless

So you need to tell me how God could know my decision in a given circumstances knowing that I am free? Either see it or guess it. Seeing is not a good option since God has to sustain the situation hence God has to guess it. So God always guesses correct.

That however doesn’t resolve the problem of having fate since God could create another world each individuals having a different fate. This is basically fatalism.

 

[tonyrey]

So you need to tell me how God could know my decision in a given circumstances knowing that I am free? Either see it or guess it. Seeing is not a good option since God has to sustain the situation hence God has to guess it. So God always guesses correct.

That however doesn’t resolve the problem of having fate since God could create another world each individuals having a different fate. This is basically fatalism.

What is the mechanism that causes knowledge to have an effect on another person’s decisions?

 

[onenow1]

So you need to tell me how God could know my decision in a given circumstances knowing that I am free? Either see it or guess it. Seeing is not a good option since God has to sustain the situation hence God has to guess it. So God always guesses correct.

That however doesn’t resolve the problem of having fate since God could create another world each individuals having a different fate. This is basically fatalism.

" As we learn from the prophets and we hold it as true that punishments and chastisements and good rewards are distributed according to the merit of each man’s actions. Were this not the case, and were all things to happen according to the decree of fate, there would be nothing at all in our power. If fate decrees that this man is to be good, and that one wicked, then neither is the former to be praised nor the latter to be blamed.
Furthermore, if the human race does not have the power of a freely deliberated choice in fleeing evil and in choosing good, then men are not accountable for their actions, whatever they may be. That they do, however, by a free choice, either walk upright or stumble, GOD did not make man like the other beings, the trees, and the four-legged beasts, for example, they cannot do anything by free choice.
Neither would man deserve reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good; nor, if he acted wickedly, would he deserve punishment, since he would not be evil by choice, and could not be other than that which he was born. The Holy Prophetic Spirit taught us this when He informed us through Moses that GOD spoke as follows to the created man: “Behold, before your face, the good and the evil. Choose the good.”’ Deut 30:15,19.

God Bless

 

[Bahman]

What is the mechanism that causes knowledge to have an effect on another person’s decisions?

I didn’t say that knowledge has an effect on decision of any person. I just mentioned that God has to always guess correct in order to sustain creation, read it foreknowledge. This however does not resolve the problem of fate since God can create another universe that individual have different fates unless you accept that is logically impossible.

 

[Bahman]

" As we learn from the prophets and we hold it as true that punishments and chastisements and good rewards are distributed according to the merit of each man’s actions. Were this not the case, and were all things to happen according to the decree of fate, there would be nothing at all in our power. If fate decrees that this man is to be good, and that one wicked, then neither is the former to be praised nor the latter to be blamed.
Furthermore, if the human race does not have the power of a freely deliberated choice in fleeing evil and in choosing good, then men are not accountable for their actions, whatever they may be. That they do, however, by a free choice, either walk upright or stumble, GOD did not make man like the other beings, the trees, and the four-legged beasts, for example, they cannot do anything by free choice.
Neither would man deserve reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good; nor, if he acted wickedly, would he deserve punishment, since he would not be evil by choice, and could not be other than that which he was born. The Holy Prophetic Spirit taught us this when He informed us through Moses that GOD spoke as follows to the created man: “Behold, before your face, the good and the evil. Choose the good.”’ Deut 30:15,19.

God Bless

Could God create another universe that each individual do different thing? Yes or no? Or the creation is defined by the very act of individuals? Yes or no?

 

[balto]

One need to decide between only two options at a time.

Why only two?

We are in the same page.

Okay, great, but then you should see how God knowing my free act at t1 and t2 does not necessarily entail fatalism.

The point is to accept that our actions are tighten future or our fate, in another word the very act of creation. The point is whether God could create another universe that individuals have different actions?

Sure, why not? If I freely do X at t1, then it is logically possible for me to have done ~X at t1. If it is logically possible for me to have done ~X at t1, then God could create a universe where I freely do ~X at t1. In both cases my action is free. I think what you are asking is whether God can create two universes where I do X in one and ~X in another. That is not possible because it would entail a contradiction (because I would be both doing X and not doing X at the same time).