God knows what will happen in the future, correct?

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Bahman said:
But you need time for the very act of creation.
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Time is created wilh all the rest.

Again your trying to put God into time or have it that there is “Divine time” before time - there is not.

Time began with the rest of creation. Tis part of it. Without other aspects of creation there is no time.
 
Bahman said:
I think that is you who is misled. My position is very clear which I can summarize in the following: To create you need time hence either time is a part of creation or not. If time is not part of creation and it is elementary then the very concept of timeless God is meaningless. On the other hand if time is a part of creation then God need to create it which is paradoxical since you need time to create anything.

You are not making an argument here.

We already argue that you need time to create anything hence creating time is paradoxical.

Why you then bother in a philosophical forum to offer any argument if you believe so. The very concept of timeless God is definable but not defendable for the very reason that creating time is paradoxical. So you either have to resolve the paradox or give up the very concept of timeless God.

Then why you try to define the God then. All I am saying is that the very concept of timeless God is problematic.

What you are saying here is full of contradictions. Either we can understand or cannot. In former case we can put an effort to understand the situation and in the later case revelation in meaningless.

That is all good.

Your very definition of God is meaningless: “God does not need anything to create”. I can define God as a being who can lift a stone which cannot be lifted. Etc.
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Everything that the human mind cannot understand is problematic. But problematic does not mean it is not so.

I don’t try to define God, he has revealed himself to us. 3 ways. In the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

It is through the revelation of God what we know of him and what we do not know. You feel that my opinion of God is meaningless because God does not need anything to do anything because he is God.

The difference between your opinion of God and mine are completely difference because of one thing. You believe my opinion of God is meaningless because I put no restrictions on God. You claim he has to have time to create. I said God needs nothing to create, he can do anything.

Your problem is with a timeless God, I don’t have problems with what God can do that I cannot understand and what he can do and has revealed to me.

There are no contradictions in what I have said. We indeed understand what God has revealed to us rather in his word or his Church, and admit there are things we cannot understand because it has yet to be revealed to us. Where is the Contradiction there?

Bottom line you have a problem with a timeless God. We have no problem with a timeless God, Simply because we know God can do anything and nothing restricts him.

How do we know this? Eph. 3;20 states this.

God who is able to accomplish far MORE then ALL we could ask or IMAGINE. He can even do this in us.

You state because in your mind you cannot imagine how God could accomplish this, then he cannot accomplish this, I say and repeat he can. As stated he can do more then you could even imagine.
 
Bookcat said:
Time is created wilh all the rest.

Again your trying to put God into time or have it that there is “Divine time” before time - there is not.

Time began with the rest of creation. Tis part of it. Without other aspects of creation there is no time.
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Can we define the very act of creation as a change in state of existence? Yes or no?
Yes: Then the change requires the existence of time hence the act creation is impossible by a timeless God.
No: Absurd.
 
Bahman said:
Can we define the very act of creation as a change in state of existence? Yes or no?
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No. If one is referring to God. If one is referring to creation - yes creation has lots of change.

With some *time *perhaps you will be able to see this…
 
Bahman said:
Authority? This is an open forum for exchanging ideas. You can define God and I can argue that your very definition is wrong.

It is illogical to accept that time can be created. It is like to say that can God could create a stone which he cannot lift. Something which is illogical is impossible.
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You say it is illogical to accept that time can be created. But yet the word of God revealed it.

In the beginning (that is when time began) when God created the heavens and the earth the earth was a formless wasteland and darkness covered the abyss, God said let there be light, darkness, Thus EVENING came and morning followed. There you got it when God created time.

You claim time was created outside of God, impossible, when it was God who created time, in the darkness and light.

What you cannot understand is God exists in Eternity. He was not created, like us, like time, like the heavens and the earth. And God explains that no one can understand it outside of faith.
 
Bookcat said:
No. If one is referring to God. If one is referring to creation - yes creation has lots of change.
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I am talking about the very act of creation which involves God. It is an act which requires a change in state of existence, absence to presence, which needs time. Hence time should exist otherwise the act is impossible. Hence the very concept of timeless God is meaningless since the act creation cannot be performed in timeless frame.
Bookcat said:
With some *time *perhaps you will be able to see this…
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That suites you better.
 
Bahman said:
I am talking about the very act of creation which involves God. It is an act which requires a change in state of existence, absence to presence, which needs time. Hence time should exist otherwise the act is impossible. Hence the very concept of timeless God is meaningless since the act creation cannot be performed in timeless frame.

.
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To the last: no.

To the first - already answered in previous post.

Your trying to think of God as if God was you or your uncle Henry.
 
Bahman said:
That suites you better.
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I see it fine. Thanks. I am not the one who does not see this - so it is in the first instance suiting yourself better.

But yes with time I could- as with all great truths – see the beauty of creation come forth more and more in its splendor and grandeur.
Bahman said:
I am talking about the very act of creation which involves God. It is an act which requires a change in state of existence, absence to presence, which needs time. Hence time should exist otherwise the act is impossible. Hence the very concept of timeless God is meaningless since the act creation cannot be performed in timeless frame.

.
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To the last: no.

To the first - already answered in previous post.

Your trying to think of God as if God was you or your uncle Henry.
 
Bookcat said:
To the last: no.

To the first - already answered in previous post.

Your trying to think of God as if God was you or your uncle Henry.
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Does the very act of creation is related to a change in state of existence?
 
Bahman said:
Does the very act of creation is related to a change in state of existence?
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No, God is (oh not that word again:DTimeless) He never changes. He is eternal always was, always is, always will be.

You are claiming because we are created and need time, that God had to be created and needed time. Its wrong.

God created time for us. Time did not create God.

Tell me this, just PLEASE think what I am saying okay.

If God is Eternal which means there was no beginning for him, not like us, How could there be a time that he was never here? Impossible Right? Can you at least begin to see what we are saying?

Next there is no before in God, He is the Omega, I Am. His existence has no before. Adam and Eve were created before God created us.

There was not a TIME that he did not exist. Never. There is no beginning with God and no end with God.

You are trying to make a beginning with God. There is none. A beginning means a time. The only beginning or time we can relate to is when God created the us.

Can you at least see what I am saying here? Time as we know it has to have a before and after. There is no before time as you are trying to make it. There is no before time if something always was.
 
Bookcat said:
Already answered.
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Let me put myself inside your shoe and look at the thing from God perspective. Your think that everything is present to God at his eternal now. Who then take care of changes within creation? It cannot be God since everything is present to God and change in creation if it is sustained by God needs a change which is impossible.
 
God is God.

And yes God creates all that is -and yes there is no time prior to time - time is created with creation.

You still trying to make God a creature. To look from the perspective of God - *as if God is a creature! *

Such is like a chicken trying to look from my perspective - as if if I were a chicken. But that is a very very removed very pale analogy.

God transcends all of creation.

God is more unlike creation - than God is like creation.

God is God.
 
rinnie said:
No, God is (oh not that word again:DTimeless) He never changes. He is eternal always was, always is, always will be.
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That I understand.
rinnie said:
You are claiming because we are created and need time, that God had to be created and needed time. Its wrong.
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No, quite oppositely I am arguing that God needs time in order to create anything since the very act of creation is dealing with a change which is not possible without time. Hence either time is primary or not. If not God has to create time which is paradoxical. If yes then everything is subject to time.
rinnie said:
God created time for us.
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What I am claiming is that this is logically impossible.
rinnie said:
Time did not create God.
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Did I say that?
rinnie said:
Tell me this, just PLEASE think what I am saying okay.

If God is Eternal which means there was no beginning for him, not like us, How could there be a time that he was never here? Impossible Right? Can you at least begin to see what we are saying?
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God is in state of timeless. Eternal has different meaning.
rinnie said:
Next there is no before in God, He is the Omega, I Am. His existence has no before. Adam and Eve were created before God created us.

There was not a TIME that he did not exist. Never. There is no beginning with God and no
end with God.
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God is in state of timeless.
rinnie said:
You are trying to make a beginning with God. There is none. A beginning means a time. The only beginning or time we can relate to is when God created the us.
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I have never said so. What I am arguing is about creation and the very fact that creation has a beginning. What I am arguing is that time cannot be created since the very act of creation needs time.
 
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