God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

[onenow1]

Hi,

Romans 5:
12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned –
13 sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

What is your defination of vs. 13 Emerald isle ?

Could this be a clarifacation of vs. 12 ?

Opinion : Paul speaking to the gentiles. He explains OT scripture to the gentiles. Then proceeds to tell them of the fullfilment of the OT scriptures, through Jesus on the cross.

I think what he is telling everyone with VS 13, sin is not counted because they haven’t known the law, so from the get go even before Jesus became man,sin was not counted. How much more for his mother this must be true the one who contained God !

Remember emeraldisle Jesus knew us before we were even conceived.

WOW WHAT A MERCIFUL GOD WE HAVE !

Peace, OneNow1

 

[ConallCernach]

The solution to the profound ignorance that is being spouted on these forums is to demand that all Protestants be in union with one another before we will listen.

They can do this one of two ways, by becoming Catholics by abandoning their schism, or they can abandon the Church to the point of atheism. I can’t see much of a middle ground.

Pax

 

[po18guy]

If that is the solution, get ready for perpetual “spouting of profound ignorance” because Protestants will never be in union with one another. To do that is to become Catholic.

It’s that old “free will” problem again. It troubles us as it must trouble the Lord. I imagine that Arius was just as arrogant, as the demon lead him to division as well.

 

[po18guy]

They can do this one of two ways, by becoming Catholics by abandoning their schism, or they can abandon the Church to the point of atheism. I can’t see much of a middle ground.

Pax

Apparently, we must also trust the Lord in these matters. Come, Holy Spirit!

 

[po18guy]

I think that woould be a rather long time to wait…

It would take their depredations away from us in the meantime…

 

[ConallCernach]

Apparently, we must also trust the Lord in these matters. Come, Holy Spirit!

Quite frankly, without Him, all things are impossible.

 

[sseason]

Are these writings of church fathers considered inspired-inerrant? Do their writings carry the same authority as the Scriptures?

No they do not. They are writings from those who walked and spoke with some of the apostles. And also writing from the earliest Christians aside from the apostles to show what the first Christians believed and did.

I like that you asked if they carry the same authority as the Scriptures. How is it that we have a Bible? Who was it that said “These are the books that are the written words of God”?? WHO’S AUTHORITY WAS IT THAT SAID WHAT BOOKS WOULD BE IN THE BIBLE? …the authority of the Catholic Church inspired by the Holy Spirit.

"On this rock I will build my Church and the gaits of hell shall not prevail against it."
"I give you the KEYS TO HEAVEN, WHAT YOU BIND ON EARTH IS BOUND IN HEAVEN."

 

[sseason]

You do realize that Michal, wife of David, had no children until the day of her death, according to Scripture. Guess she must have had them after.

Oh, and Scripture tells us that Christ shall reign until the devil has been cast down. Guess that ‘afterward’ he must stop reigning, eh?

As for all thebrethren of the Lord, every one of them mentioned in Scripture can be found, proven by Scripture itself, to be the child of a woman other than Mary, Mother of Christ. Every single solitary one.

And where were all of Christ’s supposed brothers and sisters when He was lost in the temple at the age of 12? No mention of them. Why not?

And how did Christ’s supposed ‘younger’ brothers dare to criticize them – something which was not culturally acceptable and which would have been noted in the gospel.

And why did Christ ‘give Mary’ to St. John at the foot of the cross–a grave insult to his supposed ‘brothers’ which again would have needed extensive notation in Scripture to explain why Christ did not follow the ‘law’ here. Every other place in Scripture where Christ is mentioned as doing something which the Pharisees find ‘wrong’, Christ is JUSTIFIED and Scripture records why. . .but not here. Why not?

And why did Martin Luther and John Calvin attest to Mary’s perpetual Virginity? Why was it Christian teaching for 1600 years and more and even believed by the first Protestants, then suddenly found to (supposedly) be wrong?

Who ‘changed’ the teaching? Not Catholics. The idea of Mary being other than perpetually virgin is a ‘tradition of men’ … . sadly misguided men who defy Scripture.

:clapping:

 

[emeraldisle]

emeraldisleIf it is clearly revealed by God, then the scripture would say “Mary has sinned”. please show us clearly where it say so in scripture.

Are you trying to suggest that instead of God inspiring Paul to write “for that all have sinned” in Rom 5:12, he should have written “for that Shaun, Sally, John, Jill, George, Catherine, Paul, Hannah etc, etc, etc… have sinned”. Are you trying to suggest that all the names of all the people who have sinned should be written in this verse?? It is so obvious that Mary is included in the all have sinned in Rom 5:12.

Now if you want to try and disprove what God tells us in His written word then you need to present the evidence that shows that Mary was born without sin and that she lived her entire life without ever sinning. Remember it only takes a person to sin once to disqualify them from being called sinless.

Some people are trying to suggest that the “stillborn” baby theory proves that Mary is sinless but this theory is just plain stupid. I mean we all know that Mary was born and that she grew up into adulthood.

Now Gods Truth is that Mary was indeed part of sinful humanity and that she was truly blessed among women to be given the privilege of giving birth to the Blessed Lord Jesus(we know this because God tells us so in His written word), who came into this world to save sinners like you, me and Mary(we know this because God tells us so in His written word).

.

 

[redrosetea]

What exactly do you get out of doing this kind of thing? Is it to try to control what others think, or to insult Our Lady , or do you just like to fight with people?

I can’t think of anything lower than to insult Jesus Mother

 

[VociMike]

Some people are trying to suggest that the “stillborn” baby theory proves that Mary is sinless but this theory is just plain stupid. I mean we all know that Mary was born and that she grew up into adulthood.

This is not the first time in this thread that you have essentially agreed that newborn babies have not sinned. So more than once you have denied that “all” really means all. Instead you claim that “all” only means adults. So, now that you have finally made your position on Rom 5:12 clear (and did that take a long time!), please show us where the “all” of Rom 5:12 only means “all adults”.

After all, babies die as well as adults.

 

[ConallCernach]

Are you trying to suggest that instead of God inspiring Paul to write “for that all have sinned” in Rom 5:12, he should have written “for that Shaun, Sally, John, Jill, George, Catherine, Paul, Hannah etc, etc, etc… have sinned”. Are you trying to suggest that all the names of all the people who have sinned should be written in this verse?? It is so obvious that Mary is included in the all have sinned in Rom 5:12.

Now if you want to try and disprove what God tells us in His written word then you need to present the evidence that shows that Mary was born without sin and that she lived her entire life without ever sinning. Remember it only takes a person to sin once to disqualify them from being called sinless.

Some people are trying to suggest that the “stillborn” baby theory proves that Mary is sinless but this theory is just plain stupid. I mean we all know that Mary was born and that she grew up into adulthood.

Now Gods Truth is that Mary was indeed part of sinful humanity and that she was truly blessed among women to be given the privilege of giving birth to the Blessed Lord Jesus(we know this because God tells us so in His written word), who came into this world to save sinners like you, me and Mary(we know this because God tells us so in His written word).

.

We also know that there are exceptions in the “all have sinned” which you cannot seem to comprehend. We also know that Mary gave birth to Christ. Mary became the image of the Church and corporate humanity.

God does not say in His Scripture that Mary was part of sinful humanity. YOU do. You make this speculation.

We know God spared Mary from sin through the salvation granted to her through Christ prior to His birth. Don’t think this can work? God isn’t bound by time.

Then we also know that if Mary was saved from original sin, then she is resilient to actual sin because she does not have a fallen nature like us.

We do know that Mary was given to the temple to be kept holy as commanded by God.

So after 30 pages of rebuttal, if all you can do is keep quoting three words, WHICH YOU, YOURSELF DO NOT TAKE LITERALLY, then I suggest you ponder the other posts.

 

[emeraldisle]

emeraldisle My argument is not with God, My argument and that of the many Catholics that have answered you is with your flawed interpretation. YOU are the one that is insisting that “all” means “all” but we know from scripture there are exceptions.

Yes we know from the Scriptures that Jesus is the exception.

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

But show me where God tells us in His written word that Mary is an exception?

The Truth is that God tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and remember it only takes a person to sin once to disqualify them from being called sinless. Also a person can sin in thought, action and word and there is the sin of omission.

The Truth is that the Lord Jesus is the only person who lived a complete and total sinless life and God clearly tells us this true fact in His written word. Also remember the Lord Jesus was God/Man and this is why He was able to live a total sinless life and He had to do this in order to be the perfect sinless sacrifice when He died on the cross for sinners like you, me and Mary.

.

 

[redrosetea]

You show us where Mary is included in your assertions…where does scripture say that she personally was sinfull and unfit to be the pure vessel to carry Christ…you just include her because you want to…pathetic

 

[ConallCernach]

Yes we know from the Scriptures that Jesus is the exception.

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

But show me where God tells us in His written word that Mary is an exception?

The Truth is that God tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and remember it only takes a person to sin once to disqualify them from being called sinless. Also a person can sin in thought, action and word and there is the sin of omission.

The Truth is that the Lord Jesus is the only person who lived a complete and total sinless life and God clearly tells us this true fact in His written word. Also remember the Lord Jesus was God/Man and this is why He was able to live a total sinless life and He had to do this in order to be the perfect sinless sacrifice when He died on the cross for sinners like you, me and Mary.

.

Flat out, you wouldn’t accept Scripture if we gave it to you. Otherwise you would accept that John’s parents were sinless. They had the stain of original sin, but no actual sin.
You came here not to learn, but to sow discord, and you are unable to do that. You did not learn anything from Scripture, but found Scripture to fit YOUR beliefs. You have not listened to Scripture but have only found what you already believed, and what you could not find, you would twist.

 

[ConallCernach]

You show us where Mary is included in your assertions…where does scripture say that she personally was sinfull and unfit to be the pure vessel to carry Christ…you just include her because you want to…pathetic

He will not because he can not.

 

[emeraldisle]

You show us where Mary is included in your assertions…where does scripture say that she personally was sinfull and unfit to be the pure vessel to carry Christ…you just include her because you want to…pathetic

I’m re-posting this in case you missed it in one of my previous posts;

Now Gods Truth is that Mary was indeed part of sinful humanity and that she was truly blessed among women to be given the privilege of giving birth to the Blessed Lord Jesus(we know this because God tells us so in His written word), who came into this world to save sinners like you, me and Mary(we know this because God tells us so in His written word).

Are you trying to suggest that instead of God inspiring Paul to write “for that all have sinned” in Rom 5:12, he should have written “for that Shaun, Sally, John, Jill, George, Catherine, Paul, Hannah etc, etc, etc… have sinned”. Are you trying to suggest that all the names of all the people who have sinned should be written in this verse?? It is so obvious that Mary is included in the all have sinned in Rom 5:12.

Now if you want to try and disprove what God tells us in His written word then you need to present the evidence that shows that Mary was born without sin and that she lived her entire life without ever sinning. Remember it only takes a person to sin once to disqualify them from being called sinless.

.

 

[ConallCernach]

I’m re-posting this in case you missed it in one of my previous posts;

.

Keep in mind that you do not actually accept Scriptural references like “full of grace” “before God without blemish” et al.

 

[pismopal]

“Hail, Mary,FULL of Grace…”

Not explicit but implicit…hugely. When there is a road sign you must first read the sign.

 

[redrosetea]

You can’t be full of grace and full of sin…it’s like being a bit pregnant…either you are or you are not

I feel sorry for you…Mary is one of the treasures Christ left for us to love