Grace/works/Salvation - Protestant disconnect?

  • Thread starter Thread starter thessalonian
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I guess I wasn’t meant to be Protestant. I still do not see the disconect here.
The Disconnect:
Grace, if acted upon, leads to faith.
The gospel message of Jesus Christ is to be received (acted upon) by faith.
Faith, if a living faith, leads to salvation.
God Himself saves by sovereign grace through faith in the gospel message of Jesus Christ.
Our faith, per Jesus, is judged by our deeds.
Per Jesus: God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who has not believed has been judged already, because he has not believed… (Jn. 3:17-18)
What we do shows others that we are with Jesus and, in the end, it is used to determine our eternal destination.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that no of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works…” (Eph. 2:8-9).
I arrived at the last point from the Gospel. These are the teachings of Jesus. Paul seems to say something else. Seems is the key word. Works are of no use without faith, and works of the old law are not the way either.
The operative word for both Jesus and Paul is “believe.” Neither speak of works FOR salvation.

Works” is your disconnect. Even from faith through which God Himself saves.

Religion: Do in order to be accepted.
God: Believe and be accepted (in the Beloved).
 
I just want to know, what does “believe” mean? Seriously, is this an oral profession of faith only or is it an intellectual assent to an idea? And if we still have our sin nature, isn’t our intellect naturally clouded?

On another note, here’s my second question. Christ tells us that those who seek shall find. But what if I am earnestly seeking, “feel” an internal change in myself for a while, and then “feel” like my old self? What if I don’t concern myself with God’s will, Christ’s teaching, if I see it only as defining the impossible? Does that mean I have no faith, and if so, then what about his promise about seeking? On one hand, I cannot “earn” faith as it is a gift from God. Yet, Jesus also seems to indicate my desire for faith and my earnest pursuit of it matter. How does one reconcile these two?

I’m really not trying to argue a point here. I’m on the fence right now so your responses will greatly help me in my journey. Thank you.
 
MD,
Here is my issue with all of this. I keep seeing Jesus say that you must feed the hungry, cloth the naked, etc. I see Jesus talk about taking up your cross and following him. I keep seeing Jesus use action terms in regard to having faith,. It seems to peak in Matt 25:31-46 where he tells the sheep to go to heaven because they did these things and he told the goats to go to hell because they did not do these things. Can you say that Jesus is lying? Can you say that he is wrong? If Jesus says it, do we not have to understand Paul within this context? We are all Christians, not Paulists.
 
God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who has not believed has been judged already, because he has not believed… (Jn. 3:17-18)
The word “judged” in the Bible is often used as the equivalent for “condemned,” as in the case of the verse you’ve just quoted. However, all of mankind (righteous and unrighteous) shall stand before Christ to be judged, and they will be judged according to their works:

Matthew 25:31-46

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him,[d] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Romans 2:5-8

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

John 5:26-30

26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

2 Corinthians 5:10

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

James 2:12-13

12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Galatians 6:7-9

**7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. **

1 Peter 1:17

**17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; **

All of us shall be judged according to our works.

God bless,
Michael
 
So you’re “to do those works pleasing to Him” for justification? Glorification? Or both?
We do these works for the greater glory of God. God involves our response to his graces and gifts (i.e. faith and good works) in accomplishing His plan of salvation (i.e. justification and glorfication).

God bless,
Michael
 
I just want to know, what does “believe” mean? Seriously, is this an oral profession of faith only or is it an intellectual assent to an idea? And if we still have our sin nature, isn’t our intellect naturally clouded?

On another note, here’s my second question. Christ tells us that those who seek shall find. But what if I am earnestly seeking, “feel” an internal change in myself for a while, and then “feel” like my old self? What if I don’t concern myself with God’s will, Christ’s teaching, if I see it only as defining the impossible? Does that mean I have no faith, and if so, then what about his promise about seeking? On one hand, I cannot “earn” faith as it is a gift from God. Yet, Jesus also seems to indicate my desire for faith and my earnest pursuit of it matter. How does one reconcile these two?

I’m really not trying to argue a point here. I’m on the fence right now so your responses will greatly help me in my journey. Thank you.
Salvation faith is really not complicated, Erika. You need to embrace the simplicity of it. It’s not an unfamiliar concept to you.

Say you live in the state of N.Y. and have a piece of property you want to sell in Calif. So instead of flying out to Calif. yourself you contact my property management company and request that we perform all the work needed to make your property (lot and house) ready for market. A month later I text you with a message that ALL the work has been completed and you may now advertise.

FAITH: Sight unseen, you (in your heart) believe the message and follow through with advertisements (tantamount to now walking by faith and not by sight - 2 Cor. 5:7).

UNBELIEF: You fly out convinced in your mind there’s yet more work to be done and refuse to advertise (your unbelief rendered you incapable of walking “by faith”).

Paul wrote to the believers at Corinth, whom he identified as “those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling,” saying:“but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called (i.e., through faith)…Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God” (1 Cor. 1:23-24).

Paul here asserts the incapacity of the saving power of the cross of Christ for the unbelieving Jew and Gentile (including the religious). The cross (on which Christ finished the work of salvation through the sacrifice of Himself), by which either of them alone might be saved, avails nothing to them but foolishness and a stumbling block. But to the one who has believed the message of the cross (the work is done, go ahead and advertise), the cross at once becomes the ground of all the wisdom and power of God. Wisdom, since by the cross God solved His greatest problem of how He could be just and yet be Himself the justifier of the ungodly (Rom. 3:26); and power, since by the cross all the infinite ability of God to save (forever) the lost sinner is released from those restrictions which sin imposed (2 Cor. 5:21).

All too often the obligation of the unsaved (even those sitting in pews) is presented to them as though it were needful for them to persuade God to do something regarding their sins (e.g., penance). But the gospel message of the cross declares that God has done everything, leaving the individual with but one issue of BELIEF or UNBELIEF in what He Himself has done, once for all, via the cross.

The gospel message of the cross doesn’t present something for the unsaved to do, Erika, it rather presents something for them to believe:1 Cor. 1:21 “For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message (of the cross) preached to save those who believe.”

One either believes God’s message (testimony) concerning His Son or he does not. Eternal salvation results from the former, damnation from the latter. It’s not an issue of works, but belief. Those who turn to works have not believed the message.
 
MD, Here is my issue with all of this. I keep seeing Jesus say that you must feed the hungry, cloth the naked, etc.
He doesn’t say you must do those things for eternal life (salvation). For eternal life He said to “believe” in Him. In reference to the cross He said:
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life…” (Jn. 3:14-15)
I see Jesus talk about taking up your cross and following him.
He didn’t say to take up your cross to be saved, but in order to “come after Me” and “follow Me.” That’s discipleship, not salvation. He wasn’t preaching the gospel message of the cross which He sent out with His Apostles AFTER His crucifixion and bodily resurrection. For salvation they (the Apostles) preached His cross.
It seems to peak in Matt 25:31-46 where he tells the sheep to go to heaven because they did these things and he told the goats to go to hell because they did not do these things. Can you say that Jesus is lying? Can you say that he is wrong?
Jesus does not call them sheep BECAUSE they did those things. He’s already separated His sheep (believers) from the goats (unbelievers). Where in the text does He say that because they did those things they became His sheep? The only thing He says is that in doing them they did it unto Him. You’re imposing your own thoughts onto the text and putting your own words in His mouth.
If Jesus says it, do we not have to understand Paul within this context? We are all Christians, not Paulists.
Paul, in the Scriptures, reveals and explains, doctrinally, salvation by grace through faith, based on the cross of Christ, more than any other N.T. writer. It makes no one a “Paulist,” but a believer in what Paul called “my gospel” (Rom. 2:16; 16:25; 2 Tim. 2:8). To the Ephesian believers he states that in reading his letters they understand his insight into the mysteries of Christ (Eph. 3:4).

Paul got his gospel (insight) directly from the resurrected (post crucified) Christ. What Christ said before the cross must now be understood in light of what He revealed to His Apostles (especially Paul) after the cross (progressive revelation). These revealed truths (doctrines) concerning the cross are found in the Epistles (especially Pauline). You cannot know or come into a full understanding of the power and wisdom of God through the cross of Christ except through what is revealed (by the Holy Spirit) in the Epistles, especially Paul’s.​
 
The word “judged” in the Bible is often used as the equivalent for “condemned,” as in the case of the verse you’ve just quoted. However, all of mankind (righteous and unrighteous) shall stand before Christ to be judged, and they will be judged according to their works:

All of us shall be judged according to our works.
To determine condemnation? Justification? Glorification?
 
MD, believe it or not, I liked your post. I know what you’re saying and have read many times Paul’s admonition that we “are saved by grace through faith.” And you’re certainly right that I can add nothing to what Jesus has done. I certainly cannot improve upon his sacrifice or work. But here’s my honest question. Paul spends so much time telling us that it’s grace alone, that it’s faith that saves and then goes on to say in Ephesians (5:5 in particular) and Corinthians that “no immoral, impure or greedy person has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.”

It’s as though Paul says on one hand, just believe and then proceeds to tell me all the works I better be doing. So I’ve often wondered, what’s he really getting at? You might say that if I truly have faith, I will produce good works by the power of the Holy Spirit. But if that’s the case, then “I” really don’t have any control over the works I produce and thus it is pointless to tell me to “do” anything. So again, I wonder why does Paul say it’s all Spirit guiding as as a result of faith just to admonish his parishioners in the remainder of the Epistles wahat to do?
 
We do these works for the greater glory of God. God involves our response to his graces and gifts (i.e. faith and good works) in accomplishing His plan of salvation (i.e. justification and glorfication).

God bless,
Michael
So your “gospel” message then is to do good works in order to accomplish His plan of salvation.
 
Jesus does not call them sheep BECAUSE they did those things. He’s already separated His sheep (believers) from the goats (unbelievers). Where in the text does He say that because they did those things they became His sheep? The only thing He says is that in doing them they did it unto Him. You’re imposing your own thoughts onto the text and putting your own words in His mouth.
I agree that they had been separated before they were sentenced. The important part is WHY they were sentenced.
"Truely, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the rightous into eternal life.
Not doing was the reason they were condemned. I did not read that into it, I read it FROM it. The text is clear. I am trying not to post the entire text, but we may have to. In the text of Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus rewards them for what they did and punishes for what they did not do.

If you find a verse that disagrees with Paul in another part of the Bible, what do you do?
 
To determine condemnation? Justification? Glorification?
Romans 2:5-8

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

John 5:28-29

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Matthew 25:14-30

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


We will be held accountable on how we’ve responded the gifts God has offered and/or given us. Once we are made righteous before God (i.e. justified) and thus become a new creation in Christ, we are under obligation to live up to the call to righteousness that comes with this gift:

Romans 8:12-13

**12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. **

We must, by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the body. How do we do that? By making our “members” instruments of righteousness. Not doing good is sin.
 
He doesn’t say you must do those things for eternal life (salvation). For eternal life He said to “believe” in Him. In reference to the cross He said:
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life…” (Jn. 3:14-15)He didn’t say to take up your cross to be saved, but in order to “come after Me” and “follow Me.” That’s discipleship, not salvation. .

Really?

Romans 2:6-7

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Galatians 6:7-10

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Christ himself also said:

Luke 10:25-28

**25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” **

Which is basically the same response he gives to the same question asked by the rich young man:

Matthew 19:16-17

**16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” **

Several verses later, Jesus states:

29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

God Bless,
Michael​
 
So your “gospel” message then is to do good works in order to accomplish His plan of salvation.
My gospel message includes believing in what Christ and his apostles have said regarding good works. God’s plan of salvation incorporates our good works.

God Bless,
Michael
 
What does “faith in Christ” mean to you? Faith in what “truth,” specifically?
Faith in Christ means believing what He says about Himself (i.e. He is God, He is the Christ, He is the Savior), what He’s done for us (i.e. the Cross), and whatever He has taught.

God Bless,
Michael
 
40.png
ErikaA:
MD, believe it or not, I liked your post. I know what you’re saying and have read many times Paul’s admonition that we “are saved by grace through faith.” And you’re certainly right that I can add nothing to what Jesus has done. I certainly cannot improve upon his sacrifice or work. But here’s my honest question. Paul spends so much time telling us that it’s grace alone, that it’s faith that saves and then goes on to say in Ephesians (5:5 in particular) and Corinthians that “no immoral, impure or greedy person has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.”
I’m glad you recognize Paul’s teaching that one is saved by grace through faith and not by works. And the fact that you cannot add to (nor subtract from) the sacrificial work of Christ for your redemption and forgiveness of sins. But unless you get off that plane to California simply reading and recognizing those things do nothing for you.

Eph. 5:5 is a true statement. But “immoral,” “impure,” “covetous” and “idolater” are not adjectives that describe the saved:1 Cor 6:9-11 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (cf. Col. 1:12-14).In my previous message I pointed out that in Paul’s first letter to the Corinthian believers he starts out by addressing them as “those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling,” He identifies them first according to their new identity in Christ and then proceeds to address their fleshly behaviors for which he is writing to correct.

When one believes the message of the cross, thereby putting his faith in Christ, he not only receives complete forgiveness of sins (ALL of them), but he is given a new identity, being no longer in Adam, but now “in Christ” resurrected (see Eph. 2:4-7; Col. 3:1-4). It’s an eternal identity justly bestowed on the believer by the unrestricted power God has to do so because of the cross of Christ.
It’s as though Paul says on one hand, just believe and then proceeds to tell me all the works I better be doing.
Paul never tells anyone to do works for salvation. He does, however, exhort the saved to clean up their acts - not for salvation but for the sake of Christ who redeemed them.

A believer is perfect in his new position (being “in Christ”) before God (according to grace), but not in practicality being being yet in an unredeemed body (see Phil. 3:20-21). For this reason Paul exhorts believers to “walk by the Spirit” (who now indwells them), and they will not carry out the desire of the flesh (Gal. 5:16, 25). This exhortation belongs to the believer’s faith walk AFTER salvation has occurred and the Holy Spirit resides in him (having been cleansed by His blood). You begin as a “babe” in Christ and if properly equipped you “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” unto maturity in Him (see 2 Pet. 3:18: Eph. 4:11-16).
You might say that if I truly have faith, I will produce good works by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Not unless you walk by the Spirit, and only those who “have been saved” have that ability. But still, works and good behavior don’t save you. Nor do they (as you claim to understand) add to or improve upon the work Christ accomplished, once for all, to effect your complete salvation. A true believer is saved by grace and kept by that same grace.
But if that’s the case, then “I” really don’t have any control over the works I produce and thus it is pointless to tell me to “do” anything.
You’re right if this was Biblical (even Pauline) logic. But it’s not. For a believer’s works will be examined (tested) at the judgment seat of Christ. Those which are tested (figuratively, “by fire”) valuable will receive reward (salvation is not rewarded, but gifted upon belief). Those which are not are burned up (figuratively speaking) and no reward is given (see 1 Cor. 3:10-15). But contrary to the teachings of Catholicism, Paul is not teaching here a “cooperative salvation process.” Only the SAVED go before the judgment seat of Christ for their works to be appraised. Salvation itself is THROUGH FAITH in Christ alone.

But Erika, none of my explanations here benefit you unless you get off the plane to California.
 
true, one is saved by grace, and nothing apart from that. faith follows this grace, and doing the works of the Holy Spirit is obedience which fulfills that faith. 🙂

faith without works is dead.

so we see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top