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anon10271182
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Forbidden in California. Our state legislature considers the Judge to be an illegal-length shotgun.
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Vonsalza
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Lol…
Well, in fairness, that is sorta what it was designed for…
There’s a reason that cylinder is freakishly long. .410 shotgun shells.
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anon10271182
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At Cabela’s in Reno, the handgun cases extend 40-50 feet. The California-legal section is about 8-10 feet of that. Whenever I talk to locals up there they ask why I’m still living in California.
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Ender
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No, actually this is nothing like the real question. When someone breaks into your home while you and your family are there you are faced with the option of using deadly force or surrendering. Given that you have no idea what their intentions are you can choose to hope they are just there to rob you, and that they will merely take what they find and leave. I am personally not inclined to base the safety of my family on the probability that the intruders intend us no personal harm.
You have no idea what the root cause of our problem is, although to be fair neither do most Americans.
We should all be honest enough to keep things in perspective, something your perspective fails at completely. Mass shootings are terrible, but the number of deaths from such incidents is nowhere near as high as the publicity would suggest. Since 1982 that number has been about 20 a year. Again, putting this in perspective, there were more murders in Chicago in 1992 (943) than all the mass shootings since 1982 (816). Given that Chicago has some of the strictest controls on guns it should be apparent that gun controls alone are inadequate.
If saving lives was the primary objective it would seem there is other, lower hanging fruit to go after. In 1999 the Institute of Medicine reported that between 44,000 and 98,000 people died annually because of medical errors in hospitals. That would seem a more appropriate place for attention and tighter controls…if saving lives was the primary objective.
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Vonsalza
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No, when someone breaks into your home with the intent to hold you hostage/shoot you, the only real option you have most of the time is cooperation.
This notion you have that you somehow receive sufficient warning to properly prepare and react is largely a fantasy. An oddity.
Are you aware that the city of Chicago physically abuts Indiana, a state with some of the loosest regulations in the country?
A straw-buyer in Indiana is merely a 20 minute drive away. It must be nice to be a gun-store owner in Gary, Indiana.
Let’s start with guns
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Ender
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Please, deal with the logic of your own statements. You asserted the number of people supporting gun controls was increasing. I pointed out the meaninglessness of such a claim since “increasing” is completely undefined, and that an increase of a single person is sufficient to meet that definition.
Well there you go. As I said, both sides could conceivably claim that the number of their supporters was “increasing”.
I don’t know what “at the national level” means, but individuals live in local environments, and their perspectives are personal and immediate. The fact that your opinion is contrary to theirs gives it no special meaning.
This hardly supports the idea that personal self defense is an irrational concept.
I guess this is what it boils down to: demonize your opponents, and caricature their position. If you had a reasoned objection I imagine we would have heard it by now.
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Vonsalza
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It can happen. It will take a long time – but it CAN happen.
A lot of these plastic guns that have been sold are substantially less durable than their reputable name-brands would suggest. Equipment failures and general neglect will claim a lot of these $500 ARs and $300 plastic handguns way faster than a lot of folks like to assume.
I think a ban on just semi-autos would have an enormous effect in mere few decades. I see no good reason why we Americans shouldn’t give it a test since the fearful can still have the firearms their fragile ideologies demand. It’s just that the new ones will be somewhat less “capable”.
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Vonsalza
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(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)Vonsalza:
You asserted the number of people supporting gun controls was increasing. I pointed out the meaninglessness of such a claim…
I don’t know what “at the national level” means…
This hardly supports the idea that personal self defense is an irrational concept…
Wow. The numbers are even worse for you than I imagined per Gallup.
But my prediction for the reply?
More denial, obfuscation, redirection. Why?
You’re not logically connected to the issue. Like I was when I was a gun-nut, you’re emotionally connected.
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Ender
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My response had nothing whatever to do with my “emotional connection” to this issue, or even necessarily to this issue at all; it was merely the reasonable observation that “increasing” is a meaningless claim. By your own admission even you didn’t know what it meant. Had you started out by showing that support for stricter gun control laws had increased by 20% from 2015 to 2018, that would have been meaningful.
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Vonsalza
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OkVonsalza:
My response had nothing whatever to do with my “emotional connection” to this issue, or even necessarily to this issue at all; it was merely the reasonable observation that “increasing” is a meaningless claim.
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Seagull
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Athanasiy
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A friend of mine lives in Latin America. (Guayaquil, Ecuador) He says there are areas where you can be robbed in broad daylight.
Even seen from afar a group of men waiting to for someone to attack and rob you. Robbers are usually with weapons, to scare the victim.
His tales of life there is similar to the real wild jungle.
In Eastern Europe, we are much more careless. People, children walk in the evenings. Crime and hooliganism can happen, but not to such a desperate point.
There are nationalist forces that call for the legalization of weapons, but before to discuss this, the people should explore the mentality of people, temper of the people, the level of addiction to alcohol, many ex-soldiers the war veterans might have post military syndrome, you should think twice before allowing in the houses to hold the weapons.
Even seen from afar a group of men waiting to for someone to attack and rob you. Robbers are usually with weapons, to scare the victim.
His tales of life there is similar to the real wild jungle.
In Eastern Europe, we are much more careless. People, children walk in the evenings. Crime and hooliganism can happen, but not to such a desperate point.
There are nationalist forces that call for the legalization of weapons, but before to discuss this, the people should explore the mentality of people, temper of the people, the level of addiction to alcohol, many ex-soldiers the war veterans might have post military syndrome, you should think twice before allowing in the houses to hold the weapons.
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Bradskii
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So you are prepared to use deadly force. With a gun. He’s got a gun, you’ve got a gun, you are both scared witless you are going to get shot, family is yelling and screaming and you are just going to slip into Raylan Givens mode: If you move, I’ll shoot you. If you raise your gun, I’ll shoot you. If you do anything other than drop your piece, I’ll shoot you.
Yeah. Except what is going to happen is that both of you are going to let off as many rounds as you have loaded and a few of them will hit living flesh. Not neccessarily yours or his.
Oh, and your scenario has more than one guy. So unless you are specifically trained to a very high degree in dealing with situations exactly like this and you are mentally and physically prepared at that exact time, then you are whistling in the dark.
And you don’t have to be a Rhodes scholar to work out that the one common factor in all examples of people being shot is…a gun.And you don’t have to have an IQ higher than ambient room temperature to see the almost pathalogical attachment to guns that a significant proportion of Americans have.
Now you can’t solve the problem by removing the guns - there are too many of them. So what you need to do is change attidudes. If someone says ‘You can take my gun - out of my cold, dead hands!’ then your response (and more importantly, your kids response) should not be whoops of encouragement. It should be: ‘Shut up for God’s sake, you paranoid moron’.
Yeah. Except what is going to happen is that both of you are going to let off as many rounds as you have loaded and a few of them will hit living flesh. Not neccessarily yours or his.
Oh, and your scenario has more than one guy. So unless you are specifically trained to a very high degree in dealing with situations exactly like this and you are mentally and physically prepared at that exact time, then you are whistling in the dark.
And you don’t have to be a Rhodes scholar to work out that the one common factor in all examples of people being shot is…a gun.And you don’t have to have an IQ higher than ambient room temperature to see the almost pathalogical attachment to guns that a significant proportion of Americans have.
Now you can’t solve the problem by removing the guns - there are too many of them. So what you need to do is change attidudes. If someone says ‘You can take my gun - out of my cold, dead hands!’ then your response (and more importantly, your kids response) should not be whoops of encouragement. It should be: ‘Shut up for God’s sake, you paranoid moron’.
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Ender
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I think the fact that you have to invent such an extreme scenario to find cause to object to a person using deadly force to protect himself or his family is the best indication that your objections are baseless. Actual statistics on defensive gun use show a very different picture.
Right, because knowing how to pull a trigger is so complicated. Objections are so easy to come up with when you simply invent them.
Jan 2018 home invasion, Walton County Georgia:
Cops said Slater used a crowbar to bust open the front door, and when he heard the woman call out to her children, he gave chase.
Investigators said Slater then chased the family into a crawl space near the attic - and when he opened a door, the mother opened fire striking him five times.
I don’t have access to the study referred to here to confirm if its citation is accurate, but neither do I have an reason to doubt it.
“Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence“… investigated, researched and written by the Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council under funding provided by the National Academy of Sciences and both the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the CDC Foundation.
Here’s an excerpt from page 15:
“Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed. Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.“
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Bradskii
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Test…and ten characters.
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rose321
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Not the weapon that is the root cause of what causes the loss of innocent life, is it?
Rather those who choose how to use it and for what?
Peace
Rather those who choose how to use it and for what?
Peace
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benjohnson
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As a Lutheran, I would sat that the more Catholics who had arms the better. It would make the world a safer place if Catholics could have the means to defend themselves, their families, and even me from harm.
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Bradskii
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Apologies if it appears I have posted the same reply twice (with similar text). For some reason the first required to be approved and likewise the second. Not sure why. Maybe it’s a random thing.
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Bradskii
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So a woman is so scared that someone might break in that she keeps a gun at home. Presumably not loaded in her bedroom with kids about. So when she hears someone trying to break in, she has time to get to the gun and ammo, load it, get to the kids and get them and herself into a crawlspace in the attic.
So what was the man of the house thinking when he pondered his families safety? Get a strong front door? Get a few large locks? Get an alarm system fitted? Well, in Australia, if I was living in a neighbourhood where I was worried about break ins, then that’s what I would do. In fact, the area in which I live is relatively safe. But I still have a strong front door with a big lock and it would take a hell of a lot more to gain entry to my place than using a crow bar. But in America? Nah. Get a gun is the answer.
And what did the guy do after all this? I’ll bet he did everything he could to make sure nobody got into his place again. And then put his wife and kids into therapy for the next ten years. All a bit late really. If he’d asked you, you probably might have said ‘get a bigger gun’.
I can just imagine the kids screaming and the woman saying: ‘Shhh. Mummy shot the nasty man five times in the face. It’s all ok now’.
Different attitudes.
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Bradskii
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Ah. A word slipped in that the system picked up as being perhaps too colloquial. My apologies to the mods.
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