Gun ownership in this day and age

[Brendan]

Are you sure? I don’t think there are enough people carrying weapons, even where it is allowed, to be in the right place at the right time and have the proper training to end such shootings promptly. And if we did somehow achieve that saturation level of armed citizens, we would be seeing many more accidental killings from trigger-happy vigilantes.

Yes, I am sure. Why do you think there have been no mass shootings at NRA conventions? Or even accidental shootings?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Are you sure? I don’t think there are enough people carrying weapons, even where it is allowed, to be in the right place at the right time and have the proper training to end such shootings promptly. And if we did somehow achieve that saturation level of armed citizens, we would be seeing many more accidental killings from trigger-happy vigilantes.

Yes, I am sure. Why do you think there have been no mass shootings at NRA conventions? Or even accidental shootings?

Interesting that you should bring up NRA conventions. Now I know that the NRA normally allows legally carried guns to their conventions, but the Secret Service banned guns when Trump and Pence spoke at the 2018 convention. Now I do not accuse the NRA of hypocrisy in this since it was not their decision. But neither did I hear them complain about the decision. They accepted it cheerfully in order to get Trump to speak at their convention. That should tell you something.

Also, it has been noted that gun injuries across the US drop about 20% during the dates of the NRA conventions when large numbers of gun enthusiasts gather for the convention. Why should that be? Is it because those gun enthusiasts are busy attending the convention rather than circulating in the community? Because of the difficulty of travel with guns, I doubt that many attendees actually bring guns to the convention. So during the dates of the convention, the gun owners are either without their guns, or they are on their best behavior because they are at the convention. Either way, the gun injury rate in the rest of the country drops during their absence. Isn’t that interesting?

 

[Dracarys]

The reality however is that most mass shootings were ended by non-armed people or when police forces arrived.

Name some active shooter incidents that were ended by unarmed people. Did the unarmed people actually do anything or did bad guy run out of bullets? The incidents ended by police arrival are AFTER the shooters killed 10 to 50 innocent kids.

How is intervening to stop the actions of an active shooter who is killing Innocents vigialantism?

Doesn’t make sense what you say, US have the highest amount of guns per capita in the world. There are many law abiding citizens, however that has not helped at all with the mass shootings which are through the roof compared to other developed countries.

Once again everything you said is wrong. Law abiding citizens don’t have guns in soft targets areas because they comply with signs insisting not to bring in guns. The bad guys ignore such rules and enter without fear of reprisal. Then they just start killing.

When you break it down by population the US does not have the highest mass shootings. https://www.investors.com/politics/...-s-isnt-the-worst-country-for-mass-shootings/

Many studies prove the opposite (not to mention plain common sense), however the NRA does not want the public to know it, bad business and makes their credibility plummet.

What studies? John Lott was a liberal statatistician who was hired by a liberal paper. When he searched the empirical data he found evidence that when more of the population have concealed carry permits crime goes down.

The reasons of why is that as per the Pentagon:

Your making a strawman arguement. You originally made the erroneous statement that military bases contain armed soldiers so how is it they were so easily attacked if armed people should be a deterrent. I am the one who told you military personnel we’re unarmed. Places where people aren’t allowed to posses firearms are called soft targets. Active shooters seek soft targets so they don’t encounter armed resistance.

guess when arguments no longer work, better to just outright attack the opponent.

I have disproven all your arguments. You have not said anything factual on this topic. My biggest laugh came when you said active shooters can be stopped by nonviolent means. “Please Mr. terrorist, please Mr. Psyco killer put down that AK 47, and your 200 rounds of ammunition and we will say the rosary together.”

 

[Dracarys]

There might also be a third option to consider. That is, find other forms of defense that are actually defensive, n

Like what? An AK 47 can fire 600 rounds a minute and has a muzzle velocity of over 700 MPH. It is dangerious for you to even suggest such a ridiculous thing. Please stop spending such false expectations.

 

[Moose]

Pure and incontrovertible poppycock.
The ONLY thing that makes anyone “less safe” is the evil in the heart of mankind that modern society no longer spurns or excoriates.

I might suggest that, should you or one of your loved ones ever be confronted by the purest evil in mankind’s heart and need to defend yourself or them, a firearm is your best friend - a firearm in the hands of a good and gentle person is mankind’s best friend.

Good grief the naïveté.

PS.
And yes - I have been in that circumstance and will never be disarmed again by anyone, including this or any government.

 

[Dracarys]

Fine. The analogy only applies to crime and danger from crime. But the gun policy impacts more than just crime, and so those other areas need to be taken into account too - things like suicides and accidents.

With proper training accidents should never happen. As I said above guns do not “just go off”. A loaded gun will shoot when you pull the trigger. Some guns have an easier trigger pull when they are in single action, but you can deal with that with better holster selection.

I can’t help suicides. If there were no guns they would just as easily overdose on sleeping pills. In my experience that’s how most females do it.

OK, then I want to be in the group that relies on official security rather than providing for all of my own defense.

Yeah me too, but I hope you can afford the bodyguards. Speaking of this I think it is highly hypocritical of some celebrities who travel with a possee of armed bodyguards while they condemn gun ownership in the press.

may have been the one who brought it up, but you did answer me with: “I don’t think being killed by a crackhead who kills you because he doesn’t like the way you looked at him qualifies for martyrdom.”

Why are you obsessed with this? I was discussing being involved in a violent encounter and you said you would be in the good company of martyrs if you died. To me a martyr is someone who dies BECAUSE he is a christian. Unless you travel to a violent Muslim country that is unlikely. Although I guess you could say the 9/11 victims are martyrs. I don’t know. That is all moot. When I ask someone if they would or can defend themselves in a deadly encounter and they bring up marterdom I am thinking they have already decided they will NOT defend themselves or their loved ones. I hope that explains this issue.

If I was one of those people then it would have been a relevant question to ask me. Since I wasn’t, it wasn’t.

Did the question offend you? You have taken what appears to be an anti-gun stance. Therefore I think it is very relevant to hear what people having your opinion would do if faced with a violent encounter. Self defense is one thing, but what about interving to save innocent loved ones or children. Then people change their mind. They say “I’d kill anyone who tries to hurt my kids” Ok great how are you going to do that? Throw your rosary at them? What?

 

[Dracarys]

firearm in the hands of a good and gentle person is mankind’s best friend.

I would only add “properly trained” before person. I’ve known people buy a gun knowing that defending themselves or others is necessary, but they never even go to the range.

I truly believe that if those of us who understand the importance of a firearm got the anti gunners to go to a range they would loose their fears. People are afraid of guns. Some get scared just seeing one. It’s like you brought a scorpion into the room.

Guns go boom when you shoot them. They think all gun owners are vigialantees named Bubba. These are all misconceptions that disappear with education.

 

[Dracarys]

Also, it has been noted that gun injuries across the US drop about 20% during the dates of the NRA conventions when large numbers of gun enthusiasts gather for the convention.

First I doubt that is an accurate statistic. That is just nonsense you “heard” somewhere. There are millions of gun owners across the country. There is no way having a few thousand NRA members in a building are going to influence such a statistic.

I am a gun right supporter, but I have never been to an NRA meeting. I do agree with them.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Fine. The analogy only applies to crime and danger from crime. But the gun policy impacts more than just crime, and so those other areas need to be taken into account too - things like suicides and accidents.

With proper training accidents should never happen.

Then you would be in favor of mandatory “proper training” before someone is allowed to carry a gun?

I can’t help suicides.

You can’t help gang killings. You can’t help suicides. It seems there is as lot you can’t help.

If there were no guns they would just as easily overdose on sleeping pills. In my experience that’s how most females do it.

It is true that many suicides are through means other than guns. But there were over 19,000 gun suicides in 2010. And experts in mental health have found that in many cases the urge to do it is passing, and if it is delayed, the sufferer will often reconsider. The problem with guns is that it takes only a fraction of a second between the decision and the action. With most other means of suicide the reflection time is longer, and so many of them reconsider during that time and get help. We should not write off these people as “hopeless cases.”

OK, then I want to be in the group that relies on official security rather than providing for all of my own defense.

Yeah me too, but I hope you can afford the bodyguards.

They are called “police”, and they are provided by society. That is the way it should be.

may have been the one who brought it up, but you did answer me with: “I don’t think being killed by a crackhead who kills you because he doesn’t like the way you looked at him qualifies for martyrdom.”

Why are you obsessed with this?

because you would not let it go.

To me a martyr is someone who dies BECAUSE he is a christian. Unless you travel to a violent Muslim country that is unlikely.

Archbishop Oscar Romero died a martry in El Salvador, a Christian country whose name means literally “the savior.”

If I was one of those people then it would have been a relevant question to ask me. Since I wasn’t, it wasn’t.

Did the question offend you?

No. I oppose answering irrelevant questions on principle.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Also, it has been noted that gun injuries across the US drop about 20% during the dates of the NRA conventions when large numbers of gun enthusiasts gather for the convention.

First I doubt that is an accurate statistic. That is just nonsense you “heard” somewhere.

I “heard” it from the New England Journal of Medicine, where Dr. Anupam Jena of Harvard Medical School and Andrew Olenski of Columbia University compared firearm injuries during the conventions each year from 2007 through 2015 with injury rates three weeks before and three weeks after each event.

 

[John10]

Name some active shooter incidents that were ended by unarmed people

Active Shooter Events from 2000 to 2012. This paper looks at active shooter events over a 12 year span with the goal to assess law enforcement reactions

• 49% of events stopped before the police could arrive
• 42% of events (44 total) resulted in the killer committing suicide, of which 29 killers committed suicide prior to police arrival.
• 43% of events (45 total) result in the attacker being stopped with force, either by civilians or law enforcement.
• When civilians intervene before LE arrives, they stop 33% of mass shootings.
• Slightly less than 3% of mass shootings are stopped by armed civilians shooting the attacker.

When you break it down by population the US does not have the highest mass shootings

There have been more than 1,600 mass shootings since Sandy Hook
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Source

What studies?

The US is unique in two key — and related — ways when it comes to guns: It has way more gun deaths than other developed nations, and it has far more guns than any other country in the world.

The US has nearly six times the gun homicide rate of Canada, more than seven times that of Sweden, and nearly 16 times that of Germany, according to United Nations data compiled by the Guardian. More guns = more violence.

Your making a strawman arguement

The fact is the Pentagon did not changed its policies even after those horrible events, since they realized it would actually increase the risks of gun death and injuries instead of lowering them as stated by the various reasons above.

Active shooters seek soft targets so they don’t encounter armed resistance.

” A study conducted byMother Jones found that, in 62 mass shootings over 32 years, there were exactly zero instances of a killer targeting a place because of a gun ban. Neither the motive nor the location of a mass shooting, therefore, have anything to do with ‘gun-free zones.’

Instead, data clearly show that a killer’s motives are reliably tethered to the source of their grievances and prejudices: workplaces, schools, religious institutions, and so forth.
Source

My biggest laugh came when you said active shooters can be stopped by nonviolent means

Lori Gilbert-Kaye
Riley Howell
Kendrick Castillo

The above are the real true heroes who were all unarmed by the way, victims also unfortunately of the lunacy of America fascination with guns.

 

[Dracarys]

And if we did somehow achieve that saturation level of armed citizens, we would be seeing many more accidental killings from trigger-happy vigilantes

That is totally false. You are intentionally making false statements to support your position. That claim is made every time a state changes it’s laws to allow concealed carry permits. The accidental or intentional shootings don’t occur.

The fact is, normal armed citizens are not a solution to crime in public areas. Police get special training on how to assess threats and use their weapons in crowds to protect bystanders. There is no way the average gun owner has that kind of training.

A responsible and trained gun owner on the scene of an active shooter who can fire hundreds of rounds a minute is worth far more than 100 police officers who are five miles or even five minutes away.

It’s just a myth that citizens can’t or don’t receive training equal to the police. I’ve already listed Gunsite Academy and Jim Grover’s Crucible. There are others.

But what is the alternative? When a bad guy is putting hundreds of projectiles traveling over 700 MPH down range he can kill hundreds of Innocents. If someone like me or millions of other responsible and trained gun owners are there with our weapon the odds are far better the sheep won’t be slaughtered.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

And if we did somehow achieve that saturation level of armed citizens, we would be seeing many more accidental killings from trigger-happy vigilantes

That is totally false. You are intentionally making false statements to support your position. That claim is made every time a state changes it’s laws to allow concealed carry permits. The accidental or intentional shootings don’t occur.

Relax! That was just a hypothetical. I was speaking of what would happen if the number of people carrying guns got that high. They are nowhere near that high right now, and that is why we are not seeing very many accidental shootings.

The fact is, normal armed citizens are not a solution to crime in public areas. Police get special training on how to assess threats and use their weapons in crowds to protect bystanders. There is no way the average gun owner has that kind of training.

A responsible and trained gun owner on the scene of an active shooter who can fire hundreds of rounds a minute is worth far more than 100 police officers who are five miles or even five minutes away.

But there aren’t responsible and properly trained gun owners on the scene. Generally, there is no one with a gun on the scene, even in places where guns are allowed.

It’s just a myth that citizens can’t or don’t receive training equal to the police. I’ve already listed Gunsite Academy and Jim Grover’s Crucible. There are others.

The fact that excellent training is available does not mean that every gun owner takes that training. You have not answered by question about whether such training should be mandatory for anyone carrying a gun.

But what is the alternative?

The alternative is to do exactly what we are doing now. Mass shootings account for a very small percentage of overall gun deaths. So it would be a mistake to form a national policy directed toward this relatively small problem, when that very policy has the potential to cause more harm than the problem it was meant to solve.

 

[prayerrider]

Not that difficult to travel with guns. Both the airlines and Amtrak allow them, and just about every state allows one to transport a firearm. I can concealed carry in 30 states; more if I get an Arizona and Utah permit.
Not so difficult. Just have to study up on the laws.

 

[prayerrider]

Re: Gunsite et.al., even most police don’t get that much training, outside of tactical units.

 

[Dracarys]

Relax! That was just a hypothetical. I was speaking of what would happen if the number of people carrying guns got that high. They are nowhere near that high right now, and that is why we are not seeing very many accidental shootings.

Ok, your hypothetical is wrong too. There is no evidence to support what you said so why even put that nonsense out there? It is not what would happen.

But there aren’t responsible and properly trained gun owners on the scene. Generally, there is no one with a gun on the scene, even in places where guns are allowed.

How do you know there aren’t people carrying guns where they are allowed? They are called CONCEALED weapon carry. If you saw me walking down the street you would never know I am carrying a Glock .40.

The fact that excellent training is available does not mean that every gun owner takes that training. You have not answered by question about whether such training should be mandatory for anyone carrying a gun.

Most people who carry guns are interested in how best to hit a target, how to navigate a room while searching for a shooter. Should such training be mandatory? As a libertarian I say no because anytime the government forces us to do anything it’s a disaster. I grew up with guns and I see them as just a tool. Gun owners enjoy firearms and, if left alone, will seek the training and practice they need.

The alternative is to do exactly what we are doing now.

What we are doing now is watching in horror while school kids are slaughtered by active shooters. Your okay with that? It could only help matters to train volunteer teachers how to respond appropriately to active shooters. I don’t know if it was this thread or another one where someone published a picture of a sign outside a school in their state that said something like: teachers in this school may posses firearms and are allowed to use them to protect our students. I can’t recall the exact quote. If some insane killer or terrorist sees this sign I think it is definitely a deterrent. These idiots want noterity for killing and piling up bodies. They won’t get that if a teacher shoots them in their brain stem the moment they fire their first shot.

But you don’t even have to encounter something as dramatic as a school or mall shooting. I love a news story I heard a while back where a 70 something inner city grandma put a stop on a burglar with her 12 gauge. I LOVE IT Other senior citizens in that neighberhood had been brutally beaten and one was even raped. This time the evil guy choose the wrong house. It turns out her wise father taught his precious daughter how to duck hunt many years ago. Well now this rapist/ burglar was sent by granny to talk to God about what he has been doing.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Re: Gunsite et.al., even most police don’t get that much training, outside of tactical units.

And most gun owners don’t get that much training either.

 

[prayerrider]

“Mother Jones?” the Socialist anti-American rag? Say no more.

 

[graciew]

In the cabin you mean??:fearful:Or with the luggage?

 

[prayerrider]

Nor do they need to.