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on_the_hill
Guest
And yet we hear about the dangers of “feminization,” of the Church.
Final, binding decisions are made on matters of Faith and Morals, from the parish level to the Vatican, not by women.
Guys I'm upset: My cousin pastor wrote a HARSH piece on the Catholic Church (sex abuse)
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Final, binding decisions are made on matters of Faith and Morals, from the parish level to the Vatican, not by women.
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catholic1seeks
Guest
I don’t want to misrepresent Rev Erin or others, but I think part of the issue is, again, contextual. A Catholic priest is simply not equivalent to a Protestant minister. Protestant ordained leadership is all about preaching the word and leading their faithful (pastors). But a Catholic priest is essentially different. (EDIT: The Catholic priest assumes these roles too, of course. But the male-only priesthood doesn’t suggest that women can’t be preachers or pastors).
There ARE Catholic women who legitimately express the “preacher” and “pastor” aspects that are found in Protestant ministry. My church’s “pastoral associate” is a woman, after all!
The bigger issue, I think, is that we forget to speak each other’s languages. You can’t just assume Catholic culture makes sense in your own progressive Protestant framework.
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somecanadian
Guest
When I was Protestant, Protestant ministers were practically worshiped. People would leave their church if the pastor left. Some would even follow pastors around.
Something I struggle with is not bringing my bitterness towards Protestants into discussions WITH them. Because I do carry a lot of bitterness over my experiences in Protestantism.
Something I struggle with is not bringing my bitterness towards Protestants into discussions WITH them. Because I do carry a lot of bitterness over my experiences in Protestantism.
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somecanadian
Guest
I think it’s a legitimate concern when we feminize something at the expense of demonizing masculinity.
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theCardinalbird
Guest
And you think that those churches who do have female priests don’t have any abuse crisis? Just check the recent links posted in this thread about one of those churches. Also where is your proof that the patriarchy is a direct consequence for these abuses?
Do you hold this view for all decisions made by the Church? Christ said the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church and that shows the indefectibility of the Church’s authority. We have to understand that right now there is an abuse crisis which was done by fallen men who are clergy. When you judge the authority of a Church based upon how its bishops act, you then would say that the Church lost its authority from the start. Saint Peter was not a perfect man, he denied Christ three times, that was scandalizing. Do we say that he lost his authority for the whole Church? No, he remained the vicar of Christ. Also with Judas Iscariot, this man sent a crowd to capture Jesus. Did the Church lose its authority from his actions? No, they elected a new person in replacement.
Like the Church 2000 years ago, it wasn’t hindered in its authority by the actions of some men, and so shall the Church of today act accordingly.
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catholic1seeks
Guest
Anyone please feel free to contribute. When it comes to influence and leadership, women can:
–be leaders of Catholic institutions, like schools, hospitals, charitable organizations, television and media networks (Mother Angelica, anyone?), etc.
–be spiritual directors and advisers
–preach and teach the faith, even to men. (I note this because some conservative Protestant groups only allow women to lead other women).
–be spiritual leaders and administrators, such as abbesses, who almost act as “bishops” of her abbeys, even traditionally carrying the bishop’s crozier (shepherd staff)
–be superb theologians, in universities and otherwise, even going on to become “Doctors of the Church”
–be influential in their spiritual and Christian example, such as the saints, the greatest of whom is a woman
–be advisors and hold leadership even in various Vatican offices
–hold pastoral and leadership roles in both the diocesan and parish level, e.g., pastoral associate, youth ministers, lectors, teachers, head of RCIA, etc.
–be involved in the liturgy in many ways.
So you see, the context is simply different. Catholicism has multiple roles in the church. The Catholic Church is even behind religious institutions beyond the local parish — like schools and hospitals. It’s VERY hard to judge the CC by another Protestant church’s standard, especially one so small as the Disciples of Christ (author of blog post), which is not like the CC at all institutionally (even though they do have a few schools, etc.).
–be leaders of Catholic institutions, like schools, hospitals, charitable organizations, television and media networks (Mother Angelica, anyone?), etc.
–be spiritual directors and advisers
–preach and teach the faith, even to men. (I note this because some conservative Protestant groups only allow women to lead other women).
–be spiritual leaders and administrators, such as abbesses, who almost act as “bishops” of her abbeys, even traditionally carrying the bishop’s crozier (shepherd staff)
–be superb theologians, in universities and otherwise, even going on to become “Doctors of the Church”
–be influential in their spiritual and Christian example, such as the saints, the greatest of whom is a woman
–be advisors and hold leadership even in various Vatican offices
–hold pastoral and leadership roles in both the diocesan and parish level, e.g., pastoral associate, youth ministers, lectors, teachers, head of RCIA, etc.
–be involved in the liturgy in many ways.
So you see, the context is simply different. Catholicism has multiple roles in the church. The Catholic Church is even behind religious institutions beyond the local parish — like schools and hospitals. It’s VERY hard to judge the CC by another Protestant church’s standard, especially one so small as the Disciples of Christ (author of blog post), which is not like the CC at all institutionally (even though they do have a few schools, etc.).
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somecanadian
Guest
Amen, brother. 
Part of the problem is this mentality that priests and Bishops are the ultimate in power, but when I was brought into the Church I was taught they are servants. Definitely there’s a cultural thing going on that needs to be addressed to reorder how we view the clergy at large.
Part of the problem is this mentality that priests and Bishops are the ultimate in power, but when I was brought into the Church I was taught they are servants. Definitely there’s a cultural thing going on that needs to be addressed to reorder how we view the clergy at large.
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catholic1seeks
Guest
And that’s the thing we can all agree on. The problem stems from corruption and power (for sake of power). Bishops and priests, so long as they exercise their legitimate fatherly authority and servant leadership, would not be giving the impression of “patriarchy.” Yes, there would still be people who object to the male-only priesthood. But clerical culture is in part to blame for the corruption and negative aspects of the hierarchy.
The problem is that the author of the blog post, my cousin, doesn’t distinguish between the two components.
The problem is that the author of the blog post, my cousin, doesn’t distinguish between the two components.
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Jezra
Guest
She writes well and is clearly intelligent. As such, she is positioning herself for what she sees is coming, somewhere in the middle ground between Catholicism and Secularism, but more towards the latter.
The secular world outnumbers the Christian world. Equality between the sexes is important to the secularists. In order to bring secularists into her church, she needs to adopt a stance they will accept more readily. In my view, she is demonstrating the flexibility and tolerance that Jesus taught. Christianity has a history of adaptability and flexibility, hence the pagan festivals of Easter and Saturnalia (Christmas) being integrated into the tradition.
As I see it, the secular world sees the Catholic Church as rigid, inflexible and self-preservationist. The recent scandals have only exacerbated that sentiment. While the Catholic Church expresses sorrow at the abuse of children, the secular world is angry.
Your friend is reflecting how the secular world feels towards the universal Church , but still trying to bring people to Jesus. She doesn’t want to be tarred with the same brush. Who would?
She is caught between a rock and a hard place, which is ironic because the Church was founded on a rock.
Try and see things from her point of view. She has a ministry to protect and these scandals are not helping.
The secular world outnumbers the Christian world. Equality between the sexes is important to the secularists. In order to bring secularists into her church, she needs to adopt a stance they will accept more readily. In my view, she is demonstrating the flexibility and tolerance that Jesus taught. Christianity has a history of adaptability and flexibility, hence the pagan festivals of Easter and Saturnalia (Christmas) being integrated into the tradition.
As I see it, the secular world sees the Catholic Church as rigid, inflexible and self-preservationist. The recent scandals have only exacerbated that sentiment. While the Catholic Church expresses sorrow at the abuse of children, the secular world is angry.
Your friend is reflecting how the secular world feels towards the universal Church , but still trying to bring people to Jesus. She doesn’t want to be tarred with the same brush. Who would?
She is caught between a rock and a hard place, which is ironic because the Church was founded on a rock.
Try and see things from her point of view. She has a ministry to protect and these scandals are not helping.
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HolySpirit1
Guest
your cousin pastor has an opinion like anyone else, people have opinions on politics all the time, it is nothing new, you can either let someones opinion drive you mad, or you can try an change that persons opinion, if you choose to try and change that persons opinion, you have to decide how far you want to go, and when you want to stop trying. an you have to be able to accept that you cant change that persons opinion.
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catholic1seeks
Guest
I mean, this does make sense, but remember she is not Catholic to begin with.
You are right that the progressive Christian tends to try to make the secular culture more easily fit into the Christian Faith.
I would also admit that the “self-preservationist” tendency in the Church can be very harmful. However, when we’re talking about male-only priesthood, we’re talking about a sacrament. Unlike many Protestants, Catholics regard Holy Orders is a sacrament, and to mess with it would be to suggest Christ didn’t do it right when he established it.
It would be like substituting cheese and beer for the Eucharistic bread and wine: It simply can’t be done, because Christ established the sacraments. At least, that is how the Catholic would explain it.
Put in a more secular, objective approach (without acknowledging the Holy Spirit), one could just as easily predict the Church never to change in this regard, precisely because it would mean the Church would be claiming to know more than Christ and the Apostles. That’s a very arrogant move — even if it is the right one.
In other words, say the progressive Christians do have it right, and men and women should equally be in ministry: Well, can we really blame the Catholic Church, which respects Tradition and fidelity to past teaching, not wanting to change the priesthood (even IF we wanted to)?
But alas, the Catholic accepts the guidance of the Holy Spirit as the main thrust.
You are right that the progressive Christian tends to try to make the secular culture more easily fit into the Christian Faith.
I would also admit that the “self-preservationist” tendency in the Church can be very harmful. However, when we’re talking about male-only priesthood, we’re talking about a sacrament. Unlike many Protestants, Catholics regard Holy Orders is a sacrament, and to mess with it would be to suggest Christ didn’t do it right when he established it.
It would be like substituting cheese and beer for the Eucharistic bread and wine: It simply can’t be done, because Christ established the sacraments. At least, that is how the Catholic would explain it.
Put in a more secular, objective approach (without acknowledging the Holy Spirit), one could just as easily predict the Church never to change in this regard, precisely because it would mean the Church would be claiming to know more than Christ and the Apostles. That’s a very arrogant move — even if it is the right one.
In other words, say the progressive Christians do have it right, and men and women should equally be in ministry: Well, can we really blame the Catholic Church, which respects Tradition and fidelity to past teaching, not wanting to change the priesthood (even IF we wanted to)?
But alas, the Catholic accepts the guidance of the Holy Spirit as the main thrust.
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somecanadian
Guest
Psssst: Eucharistic beer and wine sounds… kind of fun. 
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Canvas
Guest
It is true. CAF does not represent what the average American Catholic is like.
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QwertyGirl
Guest
But they will never be cardinals or Pope. That is the problem for those of us who believe a large part ot the
current abuse problem is in the patriarchal design of the Church. It sets a tone and a culture when an institution says to women they can only “go” but so far within the structure. It holds people back. There is no getting around this fact. When people are held back as part of the culture they participate in, it opens the doors to a lot of bad things happening that probably wouldn’t otherwise happen. That is not to say that allowing women priests would terminate the probem of abuse completely, but it means that the institution itself would be eliminating the culture of one group of people limiting others in being who they are and who they are meant to be.
current abuse problem is in the patriarchal design of the Church. It sets a tone and a culture when an institution says to women they can only “go” but so far within the structure. It holds people back. There is no getting around this fact. When people are held back as part of the culture they participate in, it opens the doors to a lot of bad things happening that probably wouldn’t otherwise happen. That is not to say that allowing women priests would terminate the probem of abuse completely, but it means that the institution itself would be eliminating the culture of one group of people limiting others in being who they are and who they are meant to be.
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catholic1seeks
Guest
That is why I maintain two main things:
(1) The problem is clericalism, or rather, a corruption of service into power. The Church’s mission is divine, not earthly. True purpose is not how high up the chain you can get in wealth, power, or honor — yet these have been temptations even for the highest churchmen throughout the centuries. The Apostles wore rags and had no papal tiaras, and men yet they were, and men yet were the ones who were shepherds of the early Church. I’m sure they’d just as much rebuke the “patriarchy” in the modern church.
The issue is how we construe “power” in the Church. What is true power? Is Mary, the ultimate saint, more powerful, or is Cardinal Joe, who happens to be able to vote in Conclave?
(2) Women SHOULD and CAN be more involved in the administration and decision making of the Church. That men are priests doesn’t inherently equate to men being the only leaders and decision makers. Yes, this is how it happens a lot of the time, now and in history. But there are multiple factors for this – again, clericalism.
Thankfully, it seems Pope Francis is appointing more women (AND lay people in general) to leadership positions in the Vatican. This already happens at the diocesan and parish level.
But ultimately, so long as we think women are behind just because they can’t be Cardinal or Pope, then I think we seriously mistake the purpose of the Church — not to mention life, which is to become saints.
(1) The problem is clericalism, or rather, a corruption of service into power. The Church’s mission is divine, not earthly. True purpose is not how high up the chain you can get in wealth, power, or honor — yet these have been temptations even for the highest churchmen throughout the centuries. The Apostles wore rags and had no papal tiaras, and men yet they were, and men yet were the ones who were shepherds of the early Church. I’m sure they’d just as much rebuke the “patriarchy” in the modern church.
The issue is how we construe “power” in the Church. What is true power? Is Mary, the ultimate saint, more powerful, or is Cardinal Joe, who happens to be able to vote in Conclave?
(2) Women SHOULD and CAN be more involved in the administration and decision making of the Church. That men are priests doesn’t inherently equate to men being the only leaders and decision makers. Yes, this is how it happens a lot of the time, now and in history. But there are multiple factors for this – again, clericalism.
Thankfully, it seems Pope Francis is appointing more women (AND lay people in general) to leadership positions in the Vatican. This already happens at the diocesan and parish level.
But ultimately, so long as we think women are behind just because they can’t be Cardinal or Pope, then I think we seriously mistake the purpose of the Church — not to mention life, which is to become saints.
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somecanadian
Guest
So you think this happened because it was a man’s club and the good old boys decided abuse was just fine?
You really think that?
You must think very poorly of men.
You really think that?
You must think very poorly of men.
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theCardinalbird
Guest
Do you understand the role of a priest? Setting aside the abuse problem for a second, I want to see if you truly understand what the priestly ministry is about. Also how would women be in Persona Christi?
Why not look at these links:
Women Priests: No Chance
But everyone agrees that the Catholic Church will one day ordain women. Surely it’s just this pope who is holding things back? The next one is bound to change t...
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Jezra
Guest
What you are not seeing is that the secular world is increasingly moral and ethical. The secular world gave us human rights laws. The Church did not. Laws to protect from slavery and racism were passed by secular governments, not the Church. Laws to protect from discrimination on the basis of gender, disability, sexual orientation, religious belief and ethnicity are not the work of the Church, but the secular world.
In my view, the teaching of “Love thy neighbour” is now stronger in the secular world than that of the Church, certainly in terms of law. If I abuse someone racially, I will be prosecuted and could face a jail sentence. In the Catholic Church all I have to do is confess to a priest. What is to stop me doing it again?
The core of Jesus’ teachings is for peace and harmony. That has been shrouded in doctrine and dogma developed over centuries, which seems to have lost sight of Jesus’ original intent. So, your friend is not Catholic. Does that prevent her from expressing her opinion on the RCC? Is she a lesser person because she is not Catholic? How would Jesus have answered such a question?
The secular world has come a long way, since WW2 and in my view for the better. Has the Catholic Church?
In my view, the teaching of “Love thy neighbour” is now stronger in the secular world than that of the Church, certainly in terms of law. If I abuse someone racially, I will be prosecuted and could face a jail sentence. In the Catholic Church all I have to do is confess to a priest. What is to stop me doing it again?
The core of Jesus’ teachings is for peace and harmony. That has been shrouded in doctrine and dogma developed over centuries, which seems to have lost sight of Jesus’ original intent. So, your friend is not Catholic. Does that prevent her from expressing her opinion on the RCC? Is she a lesser person because she is not Catholic? How would Jesus have answered such a question?
The secular world has come a long way, since WW2 and in my view for the better. Has the Catholic Church?
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somecanadian
Guest
The Church places higher confidence in people than the secular world.
Do you know why our system is: Sin, go to confession, sin no more? Because we TRUST that those who seek confession have a will to change.
NO CHURCH TEACHING encourages racism, hatred or evil. If Catholics are behaving that way, they are acting outside the teaching of the Church.
In the secular world (at least where I live) wrong doing is punished by law. Something as simple as ‘hate speech’ has a legal repercussion. The secular world does NOT trust us to choose right, it FORCES us to.
The Church will never do that. It will always trust us to be moral.
And BTW, a priest can refuse absolution if he feels the person confessing is not truly sorry. I have heard of several cases of just this happening.
Do you know why our system is: Sin, go to confession, sin no more? Because we TRUST that those who seek confession have a will to change.
NO CHURCH TEACHING encourages racism, hatred or evil. If Catholics are behaving that way, they are acting outside the teaching of the Church.
In the secular world (at least where I live) wrong doing is punished by law. Something as simple as ‘hate speech’ has a legal repercussion. The secular world does NOT trust us to choose right, it FORCES us to.
The Church will never do that. It will always trust us to be moral.
And BTW, a priest can refuse absolution if he feels the person confessing is not truly sorry. I have heard of several cases of just this happening.
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theCardinalbird
Guest
How about Church documents from centuries ago condemning chattel slavery?
Sicut Dudum Pope Eugene IV - January 13, 1435 - Papal Encyclicals
Pope Eugene IV Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands, the faithful who are residents of the Canary Islands.
www.papalencyclicals.net
Lacrimabili Statu - Papal Encyclicals
ON THE INDIANS OF SOUTH AMERICA To the Archbishops and Bishops of Latin America. Venerable Brethren, Health and Apostolic Benediction. Being greatly moved by the deplorable condition of the Indians in Lower America, our illustrious predecessor Benedict XIV pleaded their … Continue reading →
www.papalencyclicals.net
There’s more where that came from
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