Had vasectomy - so where does it leave me

[TiggerS]

Thanks to all of you for so many quick replies in the few hours since I posted this (particular thanks to Kostya).

Firstly to answer a query that was raised repeatedly: Yes, I did know that it was against Catholic teaching, which was one of the reasons for originally using NFP (it was partly reluctant obedience & partly medical – allergies to latex & long term medication). Still can’t understand why other forms aren’t allowed by the Church, even after reading several discussion threads on this site.

I didn’t realise that it was a mortal sin. I must admit that I’m still a bit unsure about the difference, I know that mortal sin is the more serious type but had assumed that it only covered murder/theft/breaking the basic 10 Commandments rather than covering matters such as family planning.

Colmywaykurtz: To this day, I can’t see that I did anything wrong. The Church says that, objectively, it was. I don’t want to turn my back on that teaching and conclude it’s wrong. How could it be? But it’s like there’s a severe dichotomy of perception and knowledge here. I’m way conflicted about this
Couldn’t agree more!

Back to the question which prompted me to write this post – if I tell my parish priest what I’ve put on this site, does he have to refuse to give me communion as I’ve committed a mortal sin without regret? Having read the posts, I’ll probably go for a chat with him in the next week or two anyway…

I have not read all posts in this thread and apologies for this. I think you may be interested in this answer to a question from “Quick Questions” on Catholic Answers here:

catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/Passion/page2
:
**Q:“ **
**I want to confess an obvious sin, but I do not feel remorse or regret for doing it. Do I need to be regretful to confess this sin or will it be forgiven even if I have no remorse? **
”
**A: **
What is required is repentance, which is an act of the will. Remorse and regret are emotions, which you may or may not feel and do not have control over. Feelings of remorse and regret are not required, but they are helpful in keeping us from sinning again. One way to encourage such feelings is to develop a devotion to Christ’s Passion. Meditation on the agonies Christ suffered to merit for us the grace we receive through confession helps in developing a horror for sin and a just remorse for the sins of one’s life.

I would suggest that you do indeed have a talk with your parish priest. I have known Catholics who have very poor understanding of what The Church teaches on matters that surprised me - their not knowing what The Church states I mean, so don’t punish yourself over “unintentional ignorance”. There is culpable ignorance and also unintentional ignorance (see below). The other thing is that mortal sin requires three conditions and these three conditions must be present at the time of committing the sin. If you have a talk with Father he will be able to sort things out for you - and accurately - far better probably than a discussion forum since face to face enables you to fully explain in response to Father in a normal type conversational manner, whereas sometimes a discussion forum may not and Father would be skilled and experienced in discerning moral matters.

Catholic Catechism:

1857 For a *sin *to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131
1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin. 1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. ***The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest. ***

 

[1ke]

I didn’t realise that it was a mortal sin. I must admit that I’m still a bit unsure about the difference, I know that mortal sin is the more serious type but had assumed that it only covered murder/theft/breaking the basic 10 Commandments rather than covering matters such as family planning.

Contraception and sterilization are mortal sins against the Sixth Commandment.

A mortal sin is grave matter (and violating God’s Law in the Sixth Commandment is grave). It also requires full knowledge and free will. Those two are what may have been lacking in your case. So, talking with your priest is a good idea. Now that you know it was gravely wrong, you should think about the “whys” and also how you have hurt and offended God by the actions you took. Hopefully you can, indeed, find contrition in your heart.

Back to the question which prompted me to write this post – if I tell my parish priest what I’ve put on this site, does he have to refuse to give me communion as I’ve committed a mortal sin without regret?

He certainly *should *instruct you to refrain from the Eucharist until you’ve sacramentally confessed. But, more importantly, you should not **present **yourself for Communion because you may be in a state of mortal sin. To receive the Eucharist in such a state is itself a grave sin-- sacrilege. One must be in a state of grace to receive the Eucharist. Your additional knowledge at this point and staunch insistance that you don’t regret it may add to culpability.

Having read the posts, I’ll probably go for a chat with him in the next week or two anyway…

Yes, that is a good idea.

 

[kage_ar]

Key question, if you could go back in time, KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW NOW, would you choose this sin again?

 

[cheese_sdc]

According the WEbMD, vasectomies are 99.85% effective.

Good luck with that .15% !

According to WebMD, natural family planning is 75-87% effective.

Good luck with that 25-13%!

 

[puzzleannie]

it leaves you in desperate need of a priest and confession. Failure to trust in God’s providence, which this act demonstrates, is foundational for all kinds of other sin, and is incidentally a potential destroyer of marriages. You would not be asking if you did not need help, so find a good holy priest and talk this out with him.

 

[PaulinVA]

According to WebMD, natural family planning is 75-87% effective.

Good luck with that 25-13%!

And yet CCLI claims 99% effectiveness, and I’ve been using it for 20 years at 100% effectiveness.

To bring this on topic - if something is a mortal sin, and you don’t do the research to find that out, what is your culpability?

 

[cheese_sdc]

And yet CCLI claims 99% effectiveness, and I’ve been using it for 20 years at 100% effectiveness.

My brother had 4 kids in 6 years and is now on anti-anxiety meds and he and his wife don’t have sex anymore b/c they’re so scared to get pregnant again. But surely that is how God wants a family to function…

 

[kage_ar]

My brother had 4 kids in 6 years and is now on anti-anxiety meds and he and his wife don’t have sex anymore b/c they’re so scared to get pregnant again. But surely that is how God wants a family to function…

God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of love and a sound mind.

Christ told us over and over “Be Not Afraid”.

Children are not something to be afraid of!

For just reasons, should the family need to space children, they practice either complete abstainence or periodic using NFP.

BTW - families function just fine in all these scnarios, welcoming children, abstaining and using NFP. It is all about attitude and faith.

 

[cheese_sdc]

BTW - families function just fine in all these scnarios, welcoming children, abstaining and using NFP. It is all about attitude and faith.

Interesting. How can you judge the amount of faith in a particular family when you’ve never met them?

 

[1ke]

Reminder:

Effectiveness of a method of contraception, sterilization, or natural family planning has no bearing on its morality. It is off topic and is not a basis on which to discuss sinfullness of an act.

The Church’s teaching on the disordered nature of contraception and sterlization and the moral nature of natural family planning through periodic abstinence is not based on effectiveness, or lack thereof.

It’s not relevant to the dicussion.

 

[Vico]

The three parts of contrition, applicable to all types of sin:
An act of the will to retract the sin, regretting commission of the sin.
An act of the will to regain the divine friendship, lost or injured by the sin.
An act of the will to avoid the sin and to take the necessary means to overcome it.

 

[kage_ar]

Interesting. How can you judge the amount of faith in a particular family when you’ve never met them?

You said they are afraid of children. The answer to that is to have faith and be not afraid. It’s scripture, baby!

 

[cheese_sdc]

You said they are afraid of children. The answer to that is to have faith and be not afraid. It’s scripture, baby!

You did read the part about the four they already have and the medication, right? Basically, he had a nervous breakdown and couldn’t move off the couch for three days.

 

[tafan]

If I may ask, what was wrong with your wife that another pregnancy could very well kill her?

 

[Swan]

You did read the part about the four they already have and the medication, right? Basically, he had a nervous breakdown and couldn’t move off the couch for three days.

Once, long ago, when I was doing my best to trust and do the will of God, I had a breakdown and ended up in the psych ward for 2 weeks because I was suicidal. I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. My point here is that telling someone to “just trust and not be afraid” is pretty academic sometimes. I mean, people do try, generally do the best they can. I know I was - yet look at what happens sometimes. It is so easy to blame people, to say they didn’t trust enough, didn’t pray enough, etc., etc. In other words, if you failed it’s your fault because God would never let you down. I’m an agnostic now and find this kind of attitude pretty cold. What if this guy’s wife got pregnant and died? People would say it was God’s will. I’m not trying to be uncharitable, just honestly saying what comes to mind when reading about these men and their struggles and the seeming platitudes and accusations they receive in response for sharing their feelings.

 

[jwashu]

Thanks to all of you for so many quick replies in the few hours since I posted this (particular thanks to Kostya).

Firstly to answer a query that was raised repeatedly: Yes, I did know that it was against Catholic teaching, which was one of the reasons for originally using NFP (it was partly reluctant obedience & partly medical – allergies to latex & long term medication). Still can’t understand why other forms aren’t allowed by the Church, even after reading several discussion threads on this site.

I didn’t realise that it was a mortal sin. I must admit that I’m still a bit unsure about the difference, I know that mortal sin is the more serious type but had assumed that it only covered murder/theft/breaking the basic 10 Commandments rather than covering matters such as family planning.

Colmywaykurtz: To this day, I can’t see that I did anything wrong. The Church says that, objectively, it was. I don’t want to turn my back on that teaching and conclude it’s wrong. How could it be? But it’s like there’s a severe dichotomy of perception and knowledge here. I’m way conflicted about this
Couldn’t agree more!

Back to the question which prompted me to write this post – if I tell my parish priest what I’ve put on this site, does he have to refuse to give me communion as I’ve committed a mortal sin without regret? Having read the posts, I’ll probably go for a chat with him in the next week or two anyway…

Go to confession, tell your Priest and be absolved. You are not required to reverse it.

In regards to repentance… that’s a tough one. Some on here would probably say you have to be truly sorry yet it sounds like you did what you did for what you believed were the right reasons… we often fail because we lack the faith to truly trust God in all areas of our lives. Some people seem to REALLY be hung on up sexual / reproductive sins (I won’t off a psychoanalysis of why that is the case on this thread though ) but truly they are no different than any others. When we fail, we fail, even if we did it for the right reason or what we thought was a good reason we can be wrong and the real sin is that we couldn’t trust God enough, in this case with our reproduction. That is a failing you can be sorry for and which is truly what you did. That can be absolved, and once a sin is gone it’s gone… God’s not going to bring it back up like your Uncle or anything (remember that time when you were three?).

So my suggestion, go to your Priest, discuss what has happened, make a good confession and return to the Sacraments praying that God help you be the best Father you can be to the three wonderful blessings he bestowed on you and your wife!

Sincerely,
Joe

 

[Martin987]

Thanks for all the comments, I’m a lot clearer on my position now. I admit, I still can’t understand the reasons for not allowing artificial contraception if avoiding pregnancy is a matter of life or death (or more likely abortion to save Mum), to be honest I didn’t expect to, and I can’t honestly say that I wouldn’t do it again. Will try confession at the end of the month …

Tafan – not too sure about the medical details, but the third pregancy started to caused liver failure at about 30 weeks. It disappeared when the baby was born but is very likely to recur early in future pregnancies.

 

[newbetx]

You did read the part about the four they already have and the medication, right? Basically, he had a nervous breakdown and couldn’t move off the couch for three days.

So what is your point? You affiliation isn’t Catholic. And I could assume your brother is not either. So it doesn’t sound like he was under an religious pressure not to have a vas. Or if he is Catholic, are you blaming the church for his predicament?

 

[kage_ar]

So what is your point? You affiliation isn’t Catholic. And I could assume your brother is not either. So it doesn’t sound like he was under an religious pressure not to have a vas.

Laws on morality, birth control, marriage, these are natural law binding on all humans.

 

[TiggerS]

So what is your point? You affiliation isn’t Catholic. And I could assume your brother is not either. So it doesn’t sound like he was under an religious pressure not to have a vas. Or if he is Catholic, are you blaming the church for his predicament?

I dont think that he is necessarily blaming The Church, rather this may apply from the Catholic Catechism:

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. ***The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest. ***

The above from the CCC is stating conditions under which a mortal sin may not have been committed. See my post forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6532813&postcount=21
The OP is stating that he plans to have a talk with a priest and this is the very best and wisest of moves - and Father will be able to discern exactly what is position is. The OP is also stating (I think) that he plans to go to Confession - and this certainly is a recommended and necessary move.

TS